Broad category skills

[Sean Waters]

I'm not that big a fan of the skill system in Hero, or, for that mater, most games. The problem lies not so much witht he system as with me: I either forget some vital skill the Pilot should have, or get silly and spend too much on any number of secondary skills that will rarely get used.

 

My solution is this: each character is allowed to buy a Broad Catergory Skill. This will cost 10 points and can be improved at a cost of 5 points for +1.

 

The idea is that it covers everything that the character needs to know to be in the career/profession/life that they are in. Bn effect, if you can justify it reasonably (and don't try and take the p*ss) then the character can roll against the BCS, even if another skill could have been used. Generally it can not be used for any skill that has a direct effect on combat, and can not generally substitute for language skills (although it might at a pinch in some situations, at a very basic level).

 

The point is that if the character is a combat pilot in the military, he has BCS:Military Combat Pilot. This will cover a lot of stuff, like identifying planes, knowing what they can do, it will cover flying aircraft (but you'll need combat pilot seperately - that is a combat skill), navigation, some area knowledges, some political and military knowledge, chains of command, military routines very basic aircraft maintenance, parachuting, some relevant systems operation and electronics and mechanics skills, and so on: basically it is a kind of package deal. It is like having a whole bunch of skills with the limitation 'only if it would be logical for a combat pilot to know it'.

 

You should generally only take one BCS, but it can be pretty much anything, depending on the character. You have to be able to give it a pretty basic description though, and you can't have 'Know-it-all'

 

The skills it simulates should LARGELY be INT based knowledge type skills, but can stray into PRE based and DEX based skills if appropriate.

 

Thoughts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I picked 10/5 out of the air BUT there is some method to my madness.

 

1. Why 10? Well that is a little more cost than 3 skills, and if you assume the limitation 'Only as it applies to your career' is worth -1 then it is worth nearly seven skills, which is quite a bundle. Your burglar, for instance, could use lockpicking as part of the BCS, but only as it appurtained to his particular career: if he tends to do domestic burglaries then he will know how to circumvent normal locks and windows, reasonably basic alarm systems, and so on. OTOH a high tech burglar would probably know far more about computer systems and electronic locks. They would both know (inter alia) lockpicking and security systems, it is just that they would have different specialisations in that area. This is potentially a lot of work for the GM and open to rampant abuse, but then again, there's nothing so frustrating for everyone than to suddenly realise that an expert burglar would probably be able to divine quite a lot of information from someone else's burglary, but, unfortunately, you didn't think to buy criminology as it is really too wide a field to justify for your specialist knowledge. There's nothing to STOP a character doubling up: buying BCS: Burglar AND Lockpicking - he just has more general knowledge in that area and can use BCS as a complimentary skill.

 

2. Why 5? Far easier - same cost as +1 with a group of similar skills.

[Fox1]

Re: Broad category skills

 

Can't say that I'd like to lose what grain the system does have, likely because this isn't a problem for me. Plus you're giving heck of a cost break.

 

Air Force Combat Pilot?

 

4 pts Combat Pilot with fam on combat aircraft, small planes.

2 pts Navigation- Air 11-

3 pts System Operations

3 pts PS: US Air Force Combat Pilot

1 pts Wpn Fam: Say F-16 weapon systems.

4 pts Sight PER +2

2 pts Survival- pick one (point sink here, they should have a number...)

 

 

For starters just off the top my head. Lots more than 10 points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Broad category skills

 

Can't say that I'd like to lose what grain the system does have, likely because this isn't a problem for me. Plus you're giving heck of a cost break.

 

Air Force Combat Pilot?

 

4 pts Combat Pilot with fam on combat aircraft, small planes.

2 pts Navigation- Air 11-

3 pts System Operations

3 pts PS: US Air Force Combat Pilot

1 pts Wpn Fam: Say F-16 weapon systems.

4 pts Sight PER +2

2 pts Survival- pick one (point sink here, they should have a number...)

 

 

For starters just off the top my head. Lots more than 10 points.

 

 

Well, yes, but....

 

1. If it is a game ABOUT air force pilots, everyone is going to be taking those skills anyway, so no harm no foul, and everyone gets the same bonus (and they couldn't use it as +2PER, but they would get a slew of AKs and so on, and they couldn't use it for combat pilot as that was one of the specific no-nos - direct combat skills, although he would get TF: small planes/parachutes and maybe helicopters)

 

2. If it is not about air force pilots a lot of that stuff is not going to come up that much, so you are buying it for flavour, which can leave a bad taste if your beautifully crafted character is actually pretty useless compared to everyone else who has gone for more game oriented skills (not that anyone here would do that obviously, and the taste pun was intended)

 

3. This approach allows you to limit the skill use: he'd certainly have systems operations but would be able to use it for radar and military comms and so on. He'd have little idea how to use sonar, or missile based weapons batteries or satellite-based weapons: he's know the stuff a combat pilot would know. You may see that as losing granularity: I would see it as gaining focus. It, in fact, allows for far better definition of skills - it defines not only the skill areas, but the source of the knowledge too.

[Fox1]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I sort of see your point.

 

Still wouldn't do it that way myself. I like the fine control and think that have too much default to a global skill is just too much defaulting.

 

But have fun with it anyway.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Broad category skills

 

So, is this intended to replace the PS and KS, or is this more of an open-ended Familiarity?

 

Personally, I would allow most of the things you mention for a character that had bought both PS and KS for Military Combat Pilot. But then, I tend to see the PS especially as a pretty broad skill, with some implied "related familiarities" that go along with it.

 

Note that those would generally be for information only -- if the character actually wants to be able to do something in one of those related areas, they need to buy the appropriate skill. By that I mean that perhaps the character has helped do some basic maintenance on his arcraft, and has had some classes on what does what in the engine, but he has never had to actually do that work on a regular basis, so he does not have the experience to do anything that would require a skill roll to perform.

 

Even then, PS and KS seem a little bit inexpensive for this broad of a usage. For the example given, I would probably require that the player be more specific than Military Combat Pilot. Since I know that those pilots in real life train extensively to learn the ins and outs of the specific model of aircraft that they will be piloting, I would probably rule that they would have to buy those for one model of aircraft (e.g. PS:F-15E Pilot & KS:F-15E Pilot), and if they wanted that level of proficiency in the F-22, they would have to buy that skill separately.

 

And, as you said, skills are more directly applicable to combat, like Combat Pilot or Gunnery, would have to be purchased separately.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Broad category skills

 

Interesting idea, I think. It hearkens back to the early days where all the skils were listed and detailed on a single page. We didn't even have professional skills until Champs II.

 

What I usually do, if I may offer an alternative, is probably not that unfamilar to the bulk of HERO GMs, and that is to allow a related or nearly related skill to work with an appropriate penalty. Of course, a lot of what will or won't work, much like your own example with the burglar picking locks, depends on what the skill is relevant to the character's background.

 

For example, I may allow a character with 'Pilot: F-14' to use his skill to pilot another type of jet at a small penalty, or a prop-driven fixed wing at an even smaller penalty-- probably no real penalty, as I understand that the military begins training even jet pilots with 'lesser' planes, so it's reasonable that a soldier character would be familiar enough with the design to pilot it easily.

 

If he were to have to do something like say land a commercial airliner, I'd again let him use his Pilot:F-14, but with a penalty to show that he's not familar with this craft, and that it is much larger and less responsive than the craft to which he is accustomed.

 

However, under no circumstances would I let him simply hop into a Riggellian Battle Cat and go straffing into action. I _might_, given enough time, assistance, and motivation, allow his skill to represent an understanding of basic concepts and use his mere possesion of it as a modifier to learn and understand the craft well enough to fly it, period. Maybe. That's almost story-driven, though.

 

While a character with Survival: Desert would probably not do well in Antarctica, I can allow him to use his skill at or nearly at face value for survival-- wilderness, and would probably only asses penalties against surviving in a jungle, and that because he may not be fully aware of all the dangers, but would still have sense enough to know what to look for when scrounging. And it goes without saying that Survival: well-cultivated fields ripe with fruit and veggies is an everyman

 

But the other way around: jungle to desert, is going to take some huge penalties. Though again, I'd probably let it work at minor penalties for wilderness.

 

So let's get a bit more exotic:

Security systems:

What kind? Sensor and computer array based? Simple triggers? A sign saying 'Employees Only?' Again, If the background is appropriate, I already allow rolls against 'lesser' versions of the skill with minor penalties, rolls against related versions of the skill with minor penalties, and rolls against distantly-related or more complex versions of the skill at reasonable penalties for the situation.

 

And then when you add in the 'new (by my standards) stuff like 'related skill rolls,' 'related characteristics rolls,' etc,

 

well so far, that's working pretty well for us. It leaves granularity in tact so that someone may indeed be a world-class expert at something, but it also allows such a character to not be 'locked out' of things he should be at least passingly familar with, while leaving plenty of room for many experts in many fields.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I'm with Fox1 on this one. I love the idea, but the actual functionality take a little away from the game in my opinion.

 

(to jump on the bandwagon...) What I do is just make prodigious use of Professional Skills. A PS gives you everything you need to perform adequately in any given profession, job, task, whatever. Of course, if you want anything that's actually useful in other areas of expertise, you'll need to buy that skill seperately.

 

So, if you want to be a doughnut maker at Winky's Donut Shope, you spend your 2 points and you're done. You now have all the skills required to operate and maintain a deep fat frier, dough roller, cake dough punch machine, cookie cutters, etc. Now, if you want to be able to do stuff with doughnuts that's extra spiffy, you might take KS: Doughnuts or even a second PS (pastry chef).

 

But if you wanted to be a surgon, which involves many skills useful outside the profession, you'd not only take the PS, but also KS: Medicine and Paramedics. Clearly, being a surgon is more useful to society and the game than being a doughnut maker, and rightly should cost more too.

[Black Rose]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I'm not that big a fan of the skill system in Hero, or, for that mater, most games. The problem lies not so much witht he system as with me: I either forget some vital skill the Pilot should have, or get silly and spend too much on any number of secondary skills that will rarely get used.

 

My solution is this: each character is allowed to buy a Broad Catergory Skill. This will cost 10 points and can be improved at a cost of 5 points for +1.

 

The idea is that it covers everything that the character needs to know to be in the career/profession/life that they are in. Bn effect, if you can justify it reasonably (and don't try and take the p*ss) then the character can roll against the BCS, even if another skill could have been used. Generally it can not be used for any skill that has a direct effect on combat, and can not generally substitute for language skills (although it might at a pinch in some situations, at a very basic level).

 

The point is that if the character is a combat pilot in the military, he has BCS:Military Combat Pilot. This will cover a lot of stuff, like identifying planes, knowing what they can do, it will cover flying aircraft (but you'll need combat pilot seperately - that is a combat skill), navigation, some area knowledges, some political and military knowledge, chains of command, military routines very basic aircraft maintenance, parachuting, some relevant systems operation and electronics and mechanics skills, and so on: basically it is a kind of package deal. It is like having a whole bunch of skills with the limitation 'only if it would be logical for a combat pilot to know it'.

 

You should generally only take one BCS, but it can be pretty much anything, depending on the character. You have to be able to give it a pretty basic description though, and you can't have 'Know-it-all'

 

The skills it simulates should LARGELY be INT based knowledge type skills, but can stray into PRE based and DEX based skills if appropriate.

 

Thoughts?

I also have the "threw too many skills onto this character" problem. If a PC knows it, even a little, I want to make sure it's represented. Most PCs and NPCs I write up have more KSs and PSs than any normal person needs.

 

I do have to say I like the concept of a BCS, but I'm not sure how well it would work. It seems to be like what I originally (back in '98) assumed a PS was; a skill that let you do everything related to the skill title.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I suppose my problem with using PS more than I do is that PS is cheap. I feel better giving added utility if a few more points have been paid. Plus I tend to completely miss stuff that probably should have been obvious from the start, and then suddenly realise, half way through the game, that my motor mechanic probably SHOULD know a little bit about lock picking (or whatever), and it is stretching a little to argue I should be able to use that skill on the villain's getaway car using a skill I only paid 2 points for....

 

I guess what I am suggesting is a sort of power skill for skills (OK that would be a skill skill then....)

 

I appreciate that leaves me arguing against myself as the power skill only costs 3 points, but Power Skill is intended to only be used on occasion. Skill Skill would (to my mind) have a broader application and thus should cost more.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I call that concept Retro Skill ... the Player and GM both agree that the Character should actually have the skill required given their background etc... and it is immediately added to the character sheet at the base level, it also takes the next awarded XP to turn it from a "Flavor Concept" in a character history or write up and into "Actual Skill" that the character should have known all along.... and in fact did it just never came up before.

 

All characters in our games, on average, have a few Retro Skills they knew all along but it never became important enough to warrant mention. This way any skills you forgot at actual creation can be on there properly, but still cost you points because nothing is free.

[OddHat]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I already allow this with Professional Skills, and have since PS first became available. Hyper-granularity of skills makes little sense in a cinematic game. Generally, I apply a -2 to -4 to a PS when it's used to simulate a specific skill within the profession beyond basic professional functions.

 

I would not allow someone with PS:Scientist as his only skill to invent amazing new devices. I would let him do basic paper writing, grant filing, library research, etc, probably at a minus in some cases. If he added a few synergistic skills (SS:Chemistry, Inventor, etc) I'd allow him to branch out much further. If he did have an appropriate Science Skill and PS:Scientist, and wanted to invent something in his field without having the inventor skill, I'd probably allow him to use the PS as Inventor at -2 to the roll. If he was a chemist and whated to invent an electronic device without the Inventor skill or any knowledge of electronics, I'd turn him down.

 

I'd say that 10 points is too much to permit almost the same thing that a 3 point PS allows now. Of corse, you're also kind of throwing in TFs, presumably WFs and such as well, but it still feels pricey for the utility I'd actually give the player.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Broad category skills

 

At the risk of jumping on an already crowded bandwagon, I'm another one who allows fairly broad uses of PS & KS. I have sometimes allowed mid-game skill additions, but try to avoid it as it can easily become a "squeaky wheel gets the grease" thing. (My players are already squeaky and greasy enough, thank you!) But I really like the Retro Skill concept [Repped!] as it makes it a game mechanic rather than an exception.

 

I suppose my problem with using PS more than I do is that PS is cheap. I feel better giving added utility if a few more points have been paid.

Point taken: a 2-point PS should not serve as a substitute for 10 points worth of skills. But then, 2 points is only the base cost, right? If a player feels that his pilot "should've taken" navigation skill, you can always reply that "with a PS of only 11- you must not be a very well-rounded professional pilot; you just know how to fly a plane." Or the other fallback: “You remember taking that class at the Academy, but you haven’t practiced it in awhile…â€

 

On the other end of things, I have seen GMs allow characters to buy skills at reduced (or no) cost if it's something that is pertinent to character background, but not likely to get much actual play. One example was a game where we played historical characters transported into a sci-fi future; the GM let each of us pick 10 points of “useless†skills – horseback riding, archaic weapon familiarities, lock-picking (mechanical), etc. – for free. Some of them wound up getting used once of twice, but mostly they were just for color.

 

As a tangential thought, how do most of you handle “untrained†skill checks? For example, even if Climbing isn’t an everyman skill, most any character (physical limitations permitting) can attempt to climb something. My usual method is to give a non-proficiency penalty of -3, for a base roll of 5-. Yes, I know that’s less than a 5% chance of success, but it allows them to attempt easy tasks (which might give bonuses of +3 or better, which a skilled individual could do in his sleep) with a reasonable chance of success.

 

 

bigdamnhero

"Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry."

[zornwil]

Re: Broad category skills

 

I think there's definitely some drawbacks to the granularization, if you will, of skills since the early days of Champions. But in more near-realism games the broad skills definitely become over-effective.

 

Sean, I thnik it's a decent idea. I've considered something similar but feel it's problematic in the total game balance, plus I'm quite willing to play fast and loose with appropriate skills.