Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Nucleon]

Now Innominatus, that is both a good way to brought up DEX via a power armor, and strong concept.

 

That would sell. Bring them on.

[Doug McCrae]

I'd like to see bricks with DEXs of 10 instead of 18, but they just wouldn't be effective in combat. In fact, even 18 is a bit low.

 

The rules fail to support the genre.

 

Example: Cyclops written up in Champions would no doubt have a decent DEX. 20-26, lets say. But in the group fight scenes that's not how Cyclops avoids getting shot. The Beast dodges - that's his schtick. Colossus and Wolverine soak up the damage - that's their schtick. Kitty turns intangible. But Cyclops just doesn't get shot at! It doesn't make any sort of real world sense, but that's how it works in the comics.

[Rick]

You're forgeting that Hero is ultimately a scalable system. If I write up spidey as a 26 dex, Cap as a 23 dex, Scott as an 18 dex and Bobby as a 15 dex, then the Hulk W/a 10 or 12 dex and CV's will kick all kinds of as. It's all how you in your game scale dex and speed.

[tesuji]

the lowest dex i used for a super in a full fledged supers game was 13.

 

She was a shrinking mentalist... so OCV came from EGo and DCV came from shrinking.

 

Sure, she always went last but that was OK.

 

She was also a villain so the relative inefficiency of the points... dex is sooooo good... did not really matter.

 

For my PCs, i tend to play the lower dex guys in the group. My guys are frequently 20 dex or 23 in a world of 26-33's.

 

I often describe it as my "force everyone else to find trouble first" power.

 

:-)

[Pattern Ghost]

EDIT: This was in response to Doug's post, but a couple of shorter posts went up while I was typing. =)

 

I dunno, Cyclops does get hit from time to time. Then, folding up like a cheap tent is his schtick. He's kind of the low level magic user/artillerist in the team. Hangs mostly in the back while the team powerhouses tie up the opposition. In more recent years, they've given him quite a bit of acrobatic and martial arts prowess as well, so they've sort of already "championized" him to a degree.

 

As for DEX levels, a DEX 10 brick doesn't work only if the GM doesn't let it work. Setting DEX and SPD levels is the job of the GM, not the system.

 

I think the low-pts X-men game in the other thread is a great concept, and perfectly suits the early X-men. These were all characters with a single, narrowly-defined, often greatly limited, power, and none of them could casually ignore threats from normal law enforcement or military types. If that's the power level you want, you set the power level that way. It's just not the default for the CU setting.

 

Try pre-building some of the X-characters at low-DEX/SPD and hand them out to a group.

 

Let's see:

 

Cyclops:

Dex 14, SPD 3

Xd6 EB vs. PD, OIF, Gestures, Side Effects (Uncontrolled, probably mandatory spread, and continuous if opens eyes w/out visor or ruby glasses on. Effectively blind w/out one or the other. Just wrap it up as about a -1/2 or so for the sake of argument.)

Lightning Reflexes w/Optic Blast

OCV levels w/Optic Blast.

Other stuff can be added in to whatever pt. total you're playing. Keep the STR low, he's Scott "Slim" Summers in his low-pt. incarnation. If he's pre-bulletproof spandex, then his defenses should suck.

 

Angel:

Dex 18, SPD 4

X" Flight, Restrainable

Enough levels with Flight to offset half the turn mode (he still has one in the early days, but he's also pretty agile)

Levels with Move by and Move through. He probably hasn't developed any real MA training early on, just doing what comes naturally as a flier.

DCV levels only when flying.

STR should set to about 15. Defenses, again, pretty mediocre.

 

Beast

DEX 23, SPD 5

X" of Running

Extra Limbs (prehensile feet)

Climbing skill out the wazoo.

LS: Cold if furry

STR around 30 to 35, INT 18 or more.

Fairly high PD and ED, no resistant def. unless bps era.

Toss in either HTH levels, or some MA maneuvers and some Science and Knowledge skills.

 

Marvel Girl

DEX 12, SPD 3

TK Multi. I don't think the early Jean could walk and chew gum at the same time, so no need to dump pts. into an EC. She should have a Force Wall as one of her TK defense options, which helps with the low defenses of most of the team.

Telepathic abilities, maybe a slot of TP and a slot of Mind Scan. Ego attack and Mental Illusions, not sure of at this point in her career.

 

Colossus

DEX 15, SPD 3 (he's always noted as being surprisingly agile/quick for his size)

Density Increase, 0END

Some Armor, linked to DI

Life Support: NNB, Heat, Cold, etc.

Vuln. to Electric and Magnetic attacks.

PS: Artist

Some H2H levels.

 

Blob

DEX 10 or 11 (if you cheese for the CV), SPD 2

KB resistance out the wazoo

Very high defenses

Entangle Dmg Shield, only vs. punches/kicks

High STR, maybe 40-45. More than Beast, less than Colossus.

 

Pyro

Dex 12, SPD 3

Fire multi, prob. OIF through his flame thrower

whatever defense his silly helmet is worth

some levels with his multi

 

Mystique

Dex 14, SPD 3

Shape shifting vs. sight and touch.

Pistol

Some levels with her pistol

spy skills

 

Toad

DEX 21, SPD 4 (maybe 5)

Extra STR, legs only (or HA and Leaping)

Extra Leaping

Extra limb (tongue, not sure if he had tongue in early comics)

Extra running

Some HTH levels

A couple of DCV levels

 

Of course, with the DEX break points, you're going to get a much more limited variety of DEXs to work with running low-DEX, so at least in regards to DEX, you'll have a lot of overlap. On the other hand, you'll also have more pts to spend on varied powers.

 

Low DEX can be cool. "Standard" or "Inflated" DEX can be too. I like having a bit greater range of DEXs available in a game and having the PCs be quite a notch above agents and normals, but I'd like to play in a low DEX game where those are credible threats some time.

[TheTemplar]

What we've found to be most effective is to decide who on the team is going to fill what "archetype" - for example: I'm a speedster - my speed is 7, the cap for all other characters is 5, 4 for bricks; Our main brick's STR is 70, no one else is above 40, my max, being a speedster, is 20; We've got a Bird-Man style blaster (well, he's got lots of other abilities..but in combat I'd say he's primarily a blaster) who's VERY nimble, his schtick, so he's got 30 DEX; I'm in 2nd place w/ 28; the other blaster is capped at 26, and the two bricks are capped at 21. Characteristic caps do work really well in solving problems of Stat competition between PC's and it keeps the power levels of the game more under the GM's control. I know alot of people aren't fond of GM's putting limits on things...but it REALLY does make for a more balanced (and therefore more enjoyable) gaming experience, because it gives everyone a role to fill, in addition to preventing DEX races (I've found the same races to be very common among CON and DEF, which arent' typically as regulated as STR and DEX..but can be just as dangerous to game balance.)

 

-T

[Pattern Ghost]

Of course, that kind of capping doesn't work for the character who's schtick is being a super nimble, super strong, high defense brick. =)

[TheTemplar]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Of course, that kind of capping doesn't work for the character who's schtick is being a super nimble, super strong, high defense brick. =)

 

Hey....have you been reading my "Ultra-Top-Secret-Bring-to-table-and-substitute-for-my-normal-character-sheet-when-the-GM-is-distracted-by-food" Character sheets?????

 

 

-T

[Pattern Ghost]

Hehe, no thinking of my uber-head buster Harland. Oh, he's a linguist and professor, too. Just loooves busting heads though. Think of it like The Hulk and Spider-Ma--Woman having a kid. =)

[Nucleon]

Originaly posted by Gary

Yes you missed something. You chose to accept NCM, so you're paying more points for str, con, pd, and ed. Thus you don't have the 6 extra levels that you're counting on.

Hey, that's true, Millenial Master. That would give me only an extra +2 instead of the +6 that I added up. I could just say that Cap' serum has busted these NCM limits for free and still keep them at their present, reasonable level and gain +9 CSLs...But I won't.

 

However, the point here being largely DEX vs CSL or "how could someone with a normal DEX can mop the floor with Supers", I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

 

You're also automatically assuming a normal strike with no OCV bonus. I could easily do something like sacrifice throw with +2 OCV and both fall down, or sacrifice strike with +1 OCV and +4 DC. With my +2 spd, I can easily take advantage of you on the ground, and you can't do the same to me.

Aaah, but Sacrfice throw is no part of Generic M-Arts. We agreed that our charaters would be the same exept for the huge DEX difference and SPD did we? That and the fact that mine has NCMs.

 

You also cannot block my 4 action with your 3 action. It's after 3, so you would have to burn your 6 action to abort. Even if you succeed in your block, that gives me a free 6 action, which I will throw the shield at your pitiful DCV of 5 or 10, again to the head. You never get an attack back against me without getting smacked a couple of times first.

I can and I will! See "Block" on page 255;

A character who has successfully Blocked one attack can Block additional attacks made against him. He may take these additional attempts to Block in the same phase or later segments before his next phase (this does not count as aborting to block; its just an extension of the initial Block). Each additional roll is made at a cumulative -2 penality.

 

I will concede you this, Millenial Master; Your Cap sure is more polyvalent with this extra DEX and SPD, but there, in a fight, that version sure has a hard time putting this simple Human down, a bit like if it was Capitain America you were facing.

 

 

(EDIT; this is a continuation of the discussion engaged here)

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Hey, that's true, Millenial Master. That would give me only an extra +2 instead of the +6 that I added up. I could just say that Cap' serum has busted these NCM limits for free and still keep them at their present, reasonable level and gain +9 CSLs...But I won't.

 

You can't, because your argument was that a NCM Cap could be as effective as one without.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

However, the point here being largely DEX vs CSL or "how could someone with a normal DEX can mop the floor with Supers", I'm sure you'll understand what I mean.

 

They could be competitive because the dynamics of a 1 on 1 fight are different than group fights. When your CAP has his monstrous OCV to block mine, his DCV is only 8-10 vs a third party. When my Cap has a monstrous OCV, his DCV is 13 vs a third party. Huge difference.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Aaah, but Sacrfice throw is no part of Generic M-Arts. We agreed that our charaters would be the same exept for the huge DEX difference and SPD did we? That and the fact that mine has NCMs.

 

It doesn't matter that much. I'll use defensive strike for +1 OCV then, vs your head. A low DCV of 10 will do that to you.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

I can and I will! See "Block" on page 255;

A character who has successfully Blocked one attack can Block additional attacks made against him. He may take these additional attempts to Block in the same phase or later segments before his next phase (this does not count as aborting to block; its just an extension of the initial Block). Each additional roll is made at a cumulative -2 penality.

 

 

If you block on 4 using your 2 action, I'll just switch to a head shot throwing the shield on 4 instead of 6. Either you abort 6, or you eat the attack with a cruddy DCV of 8 (I don't believe you get the +2 DCV for martial block vs a range attack).

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

I will concede you this, Millenial Master; Your Cap sure is more polyvalent with this extra DEX and SPD, but there, in a fight, that version sure has a hard time putting this simple Human down, a bit like if it was Capitain America you were facing.

 

 

I don't see it as being a hard fight if your Cap goes down within a few phases. That +2 spd is gigantic between otherwise even characters.

[Starlord]

It seems clear that Gary's version is the greatly superior one.

 

Another thing to point out is that Cap's general dexterity is very often displayed. His solo danger room workouts show him constantly displaying unbelievable agility. At least comparable, if not equal to, someone like Beast, Nightcrawler, and even Spidey. This type of agility is NOT portrayed well with mere CSL's or Acrobatics levels in my opinion.

 

I'm not saying Nucleon's version absolutely can't work, I just think a higher DEX Captain America is more in concept. This follows with established superheroic conventions and that's why it seems pointless to use NCM for superheroes to me.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

(...) your argument was that a NCM Cap could be as effective as one without.

My Cap would be even more effective with his characteristics blocked at 20. I could buy something like 24 CSL instead of 12 that way. A bit much, I agree but I'm sure you got the point. They were bought at NCM cost for the beauty of the character, and still is at par with yours. The more human he is, the better are his chances

 

They could be competitive because the dynamics of a 1 on 1 fight are different than group fights. When your CAP has his monstrous OCV to block mine, his DCV is only 8-10 vs a third party. When my Cap has a monstrous OCV, his DCV is 13 vs a third party. Huge difference.

Not so fast. If I block with an OCV of 26, I can Block 7 times before my OCV goes down to your DCV of 13. (Imagine If I reflected shots). Plus, versus slow, tough opponents, I can get 5 DC more with those CSL. Don't forget that.

 

It doesn't matter that much. I'll use defensive strike for +1 OCV then, vs your head. A low DCV of 10 will do that to you.

Nah-ha; Defensive strike are not part of Generic (or Comic-book) martial arts. You should have take less DEX and more CSLs...

 

If you block on 4 using your 2 action, I'll just switch to a head shot throwing the shield on 4 instead of 6. Either you abort 6, or you eat the attack with a cruddy DCV of 8 (I don't believe you get the +2 DCV for martial block vs a range attack).

Ninja Hero stated that Block and Missile Deflection are roughly the same action. You get to use the bonuses you got with block when you deflect.

 

I don't see it as being a hard fight if your Cap goes down within a few phases. That +2 spd is gigantic between otherwise even characters.

I regularly beat down opponents with higher DEX and SPD. There are so much ways to do it. My Cap is not going down. He is a better fighter, while yours is more talented.

 

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

 

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

 

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

 

-Without meaning to offend, the only thing here that I see that could be construed as 'childish' is that you naively assume nobody else has thought of the things mentioned in your first paragraph. Many other players here have up to 2 decades of experience with the system (including myself and possibly you). Most everyone 'gets' your point, but personally I think few agree with you because you have taken the use of CSLs to an unrealistic extreme. I think most see it as a balance between DEX and CSL's.

 

-The DEX race has never impeded on my concept or anyone I've played with. The importance stressed by concept and specific team archetype always eliminated the DEX race without having to go to extreme measures. For the record, I think use of NCM for the Superheroic genre is an extreme measure.

 

As with many systems, its more how the players and GM interact and work together that makes things flow effectively. When this happens you don't have system breakdowns such as a DEX race.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

Most everyone 'gets' your point, but personally I think few agree with you because you have taken the use of CSLs to an unrealistic extreme. (...) The DEX race has never impeded on my concept or anyone I've played with. The importance stressed by concept and specific team archetype always eliminated the DEX race without having to go to extreme measures. For the record, I think use of NCM for the Superheroic genre is an extreme measure.

Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.)

 

NCMs (as a Disavantage)are quite okay for most power armor users and many martial artists, both in comics and actual game. Nothing extreme there, in my so humble opinion.

 

I got nothing versus high DEX, or STR, or COM for that matter. If one of my player has some animalist concept or something, a DEX of 27-38 might be of order. If he is a mundane power-armor operator, a 23 DEX seems, and must be, far-fetched.

 

No matter what's been done before.

 

It is a question of relativity.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

My Cap would be even more effective with his characteristics blocked at 20. I could buy something like 24 CSL instead of 12 that way. A bit much, I agree but I'm sure you got the point. They were bought at NCM cost for the beauty of the character, and still is at par with yours. The more human he is, the better are his chances

 

Not with a speed of 4 he isn't.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Not so fast. If I block with an OCV of 26, I can Block 7 times before my OCV goes down to your DCV of 13. (Imagine If I reflected shots). Plus, versus slow, tough opponents, I can get 5 DC more with those CSL. Don't forget that.

 

Not when the opponents use range attacks. If you abort to a block, you also cannot use missile deflection. Your action is blown. Your DCV is 8 to all other range attackers. My DCV is 13 to those same attackers.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Nah-ha; Defensive strike are not part of Generic (or Comic-book) martial arts. You should have take less DEX and more CSLs...

 

Who the heck cares? A missed block is still fatal to you because its a head shot, and you still have a low DCV when I inevitably have a free phase.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Ninja Hero stated that Block and Missile Deflection are roughly the same action. You get to use the bonuses you got with block when you deflect.

 

From the FAQ:

Q: Is Missile Deflection just an “extension†of Block, so that you could perform Blocks and Missile Deflections in the same Segment as part of a unified defense?

 

A: No. Missile Deflection functions using mechanics similar to Block, but it’s not an “extension†of Block per se. Both Block and Missile Deflection are Attack Actions, and as such end a character’s Phase. Combat Skill Levels that affect Block do not automatically apply to Missile Deflection, though some may depending on how they’re defined.

 

The new Ultimate Martial Artist has, on page 142-43, some optional rules for Martial Block and Missile Deflection. And, of course, the GM could always rule in contradiction to the statement above if he felt that Block and Missile Deflection should be “extensions†of each other. That might be perfectly appropriate for some campaigns.

 

It's clear that they are 2 different attack actions, and if you abort to one, you can't use the other.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

I regularly beat down opponents with higher DEX and SPD. There are so much ways to do it. My Cap is not going down. He is a better fighter, while yours is more talented.

 

No offense, but do you actually beat good opponents who know the rules? My experience and that of everyone I know is that if 2 characters are otherwise equal, the one with higher speed will win, unless the slow person gets really lucky.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, that sounded quite childish actually. It seems I cannot convince you that substitutes to DEX can be used to tailor-cut your character more to your liking, while keeping to the concept. Ah well.

 

Let us conclude on my side with that; The Bonuses you can get from a high DEX (or STR, or CON) are only useful to some point, where they then become costly luxury. Don't let the DEX race impede on your concept.

 

The trouble is that dex is a much better purchase in general than CSLs. Forcing one type of character to purchase CSLs while allowing another type to purchase dex is penalizing the first character.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Why is 12-20 levels unrealistic extreme? It is surhuman training, of course, but is it a more unrealistic extreme than a 38 DEX? For Cap? (No offense Gary; I know you don't think it neither.)

 

In my opinion, yes. However, you were the one who offered the 38 DEX Cap. I wouldn't use 38 Dex Cap either, but I think it FAR less unrealistic than a character with an average of 16 CSLs.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

Not with a speed of 4 he isn't (on par).

And why victory should not go to the strongest one, or the one with the best defenses, or, like in this case, to the better fighter? If you can't touch me while I dodge or block, and I touch you everytime I get to act, what good use is a SPD 6 or 12 for that matter? To spend END, recover and flee? Oh, and forgot the head shot. At -8 OCV, you will need all your small change to hit me. An area-effect is what you need right now.

 

Not when the opponents use range attacks. If you abort to a block, you also cannot use missile deflection. Your action is blown. Your DCV is 8 to all other range attackers. My DCV is 13 to those same attackers.

From the FAQ:

The new Ultimate Martial Artist has, on page 142-43, some optional rules for Martial Block and Missile Deflection. And, of course, the GM could always rule in contradiction to the statement above if he felt that Block and Missile Deflection should be “extensions†of each other. That might be perfectly appropriate for some campaigns.

 

Well, I must sound subjective here, but it seems logical to me that in this very case, it is the same action; In both cases the shield is used in a defensive manner to block/deflect incoming attacks in one single movement. If I, as a GM, would not let it to the player who attempt it, chances are the other players will sceam bloody murder.

 

The trouble is that dex is a much better purchase in general than CSLs. Forcing one type of character to purchase CSLs while allowing another type to purchase dex is penalizing the first character. [/b]

I do not force low or high DEX. The concept does it. As a GM I'm only there during creation to see that the concept wins. In this case, a man at the peak of human performance with lots of training and combat experience.

 

3-pts CSLs and Skill lvls with 3-related skills are a cheaper way to get there faster and for cheaper. Sure, a high DEX would make Cap good at lockpicking, but is that really what you wanted?

 

And you still did not write a word about the extra DC I can get with CSLs. At 20-25 STR, this is of some importance.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

In my opinion, yes. However, you were the one who offered the 38 DEX Cap. I wouldn't use 38 Dex Cap either, but I think it FAR less unrealistic than a character with an average of 16 CSLs.

 

So you would accept a 38 DEX Cap, but a 15 CSL Cap would sound unrealistic?

 

An extra 15 of DEX costs 45 pts. 15 CSLs at 3 pts is 45 pts too. Why is that unrealistic? Maybe that's not me who have a problem with DEX, but rather you who have a beef with CSLs. Why super agile is accepted, while super trained isn't?

 

Me I accept, and use both. I guess we'll have to agree we disagree.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

And why victory should not go to the strongest one, or the one with the best defenses, or, like in this case, to the better fighter? If you can't touch me while I dodge or block, and I touch you everytime I get to act, what good use is a SPD 6 or 12 for that matter? To spend END, recover and flee? Oh, and forgot the head shot. At -8 OCV, you will need all your small change to hit me. An area-effect is what you need right now.

 

You have a DCV of 10 when blocking, or 8 vs a range attack. I have an OCV of 23. Head shots are trivial. You'll never get to act vs me, because you'll always have to abort actions. You'll never get a free action. As long as I keep switching between a HTH and range attack, you're toast.

 

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Well, I must sound subjective here, but it seems logical to me that in this very case, it is the same action; In both cases the shield is used in a defensive manner to block/deflect incoming attacks in one single movement. If I, as a GM, would not let it to the player who attempt it, chances are the other players will sceam bloody murder.

 

IOW, the only way your NCM Cap could be competitive is if you are the GM.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

I do not force low or high DEX. The concept does it. As a GM I'm only there during creation to see that the concept wins. In this case, a man at the peak of human performance with lots of training and combat experience.

 

This is true, concept is paramount. However, the system rewards certain concepts more than others.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

3-pts CSLs and Skill lvls with 3-related skills are a cheaper way to get there faster and for cheaper. Sure, a high DEX would make Cap good at lockpicking, but is that really what you wanted?

 

CSL's are cheaper, but only in a narrow area. Cap really should have the 5 and 8 pt CSL's for conception since in the comics he can use them for all sorts of fighting and as DCV vs range attacks, but then that would totally make him uncompetitive with a Dex based Cap.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

And you still did not write a word about the extra DC I can get with CSLs. At 20-25 STR, this is of some importance.

 

Minor. You'll get destroyed by my Cap if you switch those levels to anything but OCV for block, or DCV for dodge. Actually you'll get destroyed anyway, but blocking or dodging would delay the inevitable by a couple of phases.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

So you would accept a 38 DEX Cap, but a 15 CSL Cap would sound unrealistic?

 

An extra 15 of DEX costs 45 pts. 15 CSLs at 3 pts is 45 pts too. Why is that unrealistic? Maybe that's not me who have a problem with DEX, but rather you who have a beef with CSLs. Why super agile is accepted, while super trained isn't?

 

Me I accept, and use both. I guess we'll have to agree we disagree.

 

I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

 

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Gary

I personally think Cap should have 30 dex with about 3-4 general combat CSL' and 3-4 HTH CSL's. That is how he is portrayed in the comics, although the skill levels are horribly inefficient.

 

As a side note, 15 Dex costs only 30 pts not 45 after you factor in the savings from speed.

 

Agreed.

[Stargazer]

i dont know where u get ur comic book guys..but for the past 25 years that ive read them cap as never been so high.....

true cap is better then a normal human..but not that much....for example...batman is peak human...meaning max human in all stats...20 in all primary characteristics...and max in all figured char + a Huge amounts of CSLand DC

cap isnt that much higher then bats... i mean his str, dex, con, and body at maxium 25 with an incredible amount of genral CSL... same as bats but phisicaly stronger...what makes cap special is his determination...he wont quit...again same as bats...

cap doesnt have dex in the 30's (35 to 40) .... i mean come on..the guy is no where near as dexterous as spiderman.

and speed wise cap as maybe 5 of speed..never 6...wheres as bats would have 4 of spd...

 

i personaly think the same as nukleon as far as dex goes...if it fits the concept ..go for it... but make the concept first...

as i seem to notice here... most ppl (not all, i hate to generalize) seem to create the stats then the concept of their char. (i may be wrong, but thats the way i see it)

 

if stats takes over the concept, then i say scrap that char. isnt any good...unless u just want to bash some vilains head in and dont care about role-play.....

 

but this is just my humble opinion.....

[Black Rose]

Originally posted by Stargazer

i dont know where u get ur comic book guys..but for the past 25 years that ive read them cap as never been so high.....

 

IMX, Cap has been one of the better "agile-quick-talented" fighters in Marveldom for quite a while. Sure they bring up that whole "human, pure human" stuff, but it doesn't stop him from doing darn near anything he pleases if it looks cool.

 

true cap is better then a normal human..but not that much....for example...batman is peak human...meaning max human in all stats...20 in all primary characteristics...and max in all figured char + a Huge amounts of CSLand DC

 

Actually, the NCM doesn't mean you have to stop there if you're a "normal" - it just means you have to pay more. I'm not saying that Bats is a Dex 36 or anything, but I think his multi-decade career has made him, well, "more human than human." The guy is really good, Stargazer; almost scary good, if you see my meaning.

 

cap isnt that much higher then bats... i mean his str, dex, con, and body at maxium 25 with an incredible amount of genral CSL... same as bats but phisicaly stronger...what makes cap special is his determination...he wont quit...again same as bats...

cap doesnt have dex in the 30's (35 to 40) .... i mean come on..the guy is no where near as dexterous as spiderman.

 

You're right, he's not as dexterous as Spidey - at least, not natively. His obscene agility comes from training, and lots of it - same as Batman. Now, there are two ways to represent someone who has less native Dexterity than Spiderman, but is trained up to near his level; give him truckloads of Skill Levels, both Dex-based and Combat. This will represent that his Dex isn't where he gets this ability from. Or, you can simply make his Dex high enough to do it, add some Skill levels for flavour, and mention the training in his Background.

 

and speed wise cap as maybe 5 of speed..never 6...wheres as bats would have 4 of spd...

 

Whereas I would say Cap has a Speed of 5 with a bunch of Lightning Reflexes, or a 6 with less LR. And Bats would be a hair behind Cap. But he would be craftier, so he'd still kick his butt.

 

i personaly think the same as nukleon as far as dex goes...if it fits the concept ..go for it... but make the concept first...

as i seem to notice here... most ppl (not all, i hate to generalize) seem to create the stats then the concept of their char. (i may be wrong, but thats the way i see it)

 

I think that's due to playing this system for so long that we tend to see things through the system. When I went to see The One, with Jet "kicked all your asses" Li, my first thought when he started to run after his counterpart and was beating the cars to him was "Oooh, his Speed and Run just went up. Can't wait for the other Aids to kick in."

 

if stats takes over the concept, then i say scrap that char. isnt any good...unless u just want to bash some vilains head in and dont care about role-play.....

 

but this is just my humble opinion.....

:D

 

I still think it's due to having a system that allows us to replicate damn near anything we want - you start to use it for everything.

[Pattern Ghost]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 38 DEX figure was pretty much just plucked out of the air to prove a point about the effectiveness of DEX...I seriously doubt if anyone involved thinks Cap has a DEX that high.

 

I have a pretty simple way to figure Marvel DEX values:

 

Spiderman is X

Cap is Spiderman - 2 CV worth of DEX

Most of the really good Martial Artists are Cap -1 or -2 CV

Other physically capable types are below that

Slow bricks are below that (slow bricks seem to be more the exception than the rule in comics, esp. in DC)

Elite combat humans are probably at or below the slow brick level.

 

Note, Spidey probably doesn't have the same CV as Cap, most of his is probably natural, without much MA, just some skill levels from "learning the hard way." Cap would still be more effective in H2H, though he'd have it rough trying to tag a dodging Spider.

 

So, let's say Spidey has a 35 DEX. That's pretty darn spiffy.

That'd put Cap at 30.

 

Let's say Spidey is at 30.

That'd put cap at about 24.

 

Let's go Low DEX and put Spidey at 26

That'd put Cap around 20.

 

Of course, all you do by setting your Spidey Factor (SF) is determine how much above the normal schmucks with the 10 to 14 DEXes your heroes are. SF gives a good idea of how "norm-proof" characters will generally be.

 

I think a good level of SF is SF 32, with a Cap at around 26-27. It gives a decent range of DEX options and it lets normals be a bit of a threat, especially en masse.