Are you engaged in the DEX race?

[Stargazer]

Monolith..have u read what was to the right of that sentence u quote from me? it said just kidding...

 

i have no intention of starting on bats...unless someone wants to start a debate ill surely jump in...as im a big batman fan...

but otherwise i wont start a debate on his stats..

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

That's an interesting point of view, but I prefer mine.

 

As I said, you can find rules to do your thing.

 

Your point of view isn't really supported by real life in this case. +10 str represents 4 times the lifting capacity. According to your reasoning, a strong football player who could bench press 500 pounds max, could only bench press 125 pounds under normal circumstances. That's nonsense. The football player could easily bench press 250 or more pounds without much straining.

 

I personally know people who could bench press 350-400. They would laugh at me if I suggested that 90-100 represents their "true" str.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I doubt your guy in the first exemple also blocks a fist with the same Warp Field. But he may be, you know, if he bought some M-Arts That include a block) "usable w. Warp Field". The person who catches the projectile is closer in this way to my Cap; I would allow it in his case.

 

These were just a couple of examples off the top of my head. How about the guy who vaporizes projectiles with his eyebeams? There are so many possible special effects for missile deflection/reflection, that you would have to go through each and every one on a case by case basis which still leaves the fundamental fairness problem of certain special effects getting "bonus" abilities that others don't.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Monolith

Why bother? Cap is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Batman is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Daredevil is 20 STR, DEX, CON, 4 SPD. Fortunately we do get some variance. Nightwing is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD and Ironfist is 15 STR, 20 DEX, CON, 4 SPD.

 

The whole point of using an extended characteristic range is so that you can show true variances in the characters (Cap can have a 30 STR, Batman a 25 STR, and Daredevil a 20, for example). If I wanted all the characters to have virtually the same meaningless stats and to go at the exact same time I would just play D&D.

An excellent, caustic post, Living Titan.

 

Fortunately, Cap, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing and Ironfist rarely are in the same playing group.

 

Anyway, characteristics of personnage "genres" tend to ressemble at comparable lvls too. The true difference is in the powers and habilities.

 

(I loved that one about D&D too...)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Fortunately, Cap, Batman, Daredevil, Nightwing and Ironfist rarely are in the same playing group.

Apparently you have never had a gaming group with Patriot, Dragonfist, and Shadow Stalker in it. I have had the Cap, Batman, and Ironfist player combinations several times over the years.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Gary

How about the guy who vaporizes projectiles with his eyebeams? There are so many possible special effects for missile deflection/reflection, that you would have to go through each and every one on a case by case basis which still leaves the fundamental fairness problem of certain special effects getting "bonus" abilities that others don't.

 

About the case by case basis; Yes, you must.

 

this guy of yours got to have some Martial Arts that include a Block, and must be using the same medium in both applications. That's why M-Artists often have it easier than, say, E-Projs in this case.

 

This is but my interpretation, of course.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Monolith

Apparently you have never had a gaming group with Patriot, Dragonfist, and Shadow Stalker in it. I have had the Cap, Batman, and Ironfist player combinations several times over the years.

 

Really? Wow. Did each player had his schtick?

 

That makes for a campaign in subtilities, I guess.

[Morningstar]

Nucleon,

Iam glad the Cap portion of this is coming to a close but I must ask one thing: Why are you so resistant to suspending your disbelief of this one issue(The maximum human STR, DEX CON being 30) yet accepting of everything else that is insane in this game. Examples:

 

A normal human, 10STR 2 PD 10 BOD can...

 

Be hit by a flagpole swungby a superhuman capable of lifting a tank and not only survive but not even be dying!

 

Be thrown though 3 brick walls and still be alive.

 

Fall from a 22 story building and still live on average.

 

There are plenty more but overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by Morningstar

.

 

There are plenty more but overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

 

what u say about the 38 dd and 5% bodyfat is so true in modern comic book world:)

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Morningstar

Nucleon,

Iam glad the Cap portion of this is coming to a close but I must ask one thing: Why are you so resistant to suspending your disbelief of this one issue(The maximum human STR, DEX CON being 30) yet accepting of everything else that is insane in this game (...)overall we are talking about comics and superheroes and a world where even science geeks look like Mr. Universe and every woman on the planet has natural 38DD's and 5% bodyfat. Why this one thing?

 

These were fine exemples. Champion is but a game, and some fantasy is to being accepted if we play at all. That's why we're here.

 

l like my normals at 20. Maybe I'm an incurable romantic, but it works fine with the STR table, the running distance, etc.

 

If you play in a setting that ressemble mine a bit, you are at about the 6th generation of heroes; Mutants, either born of these or otherwise abound; Science can do everything; Magic exists, as well as dimension-hopping beings. In this day and age, there are many, many ways to have powers other than being over-trained. I can play a "Cap" type character with a 30 DEX saying he was brought "beyond human capacity" by a super-serum, instead that "at peak human".

 

Playing a "real" normal human is a challenge, and a beautifull one. My players that did it take special pride in this fact, just like Cap and Batman do. It's a great concept. I can't imagine a hero vaunting his simple and pure humanity while having scores of 29 in chars and a 6 SPD.

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Morningstar

[quoteNucleon, The "most lifted you are reading is an overhead press and control. Champions strength is "get it off the ground and stagger a few steps". The would more equate to a deadlift which the record is now over 1,000 lbs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

1000 lbs? That's 450 kg. STR 21.

 

You ran into one of the areas of Champions that is a serious flaw. Flaw is the wrong word, decision to make the game playable is more like it.

 

Strength and SPD are the 2 characteristics totally out of whack with comics, and physics for that matter.

 

Look at the STR damage, throwing and knockback comparisons and you will see what I mean.

The Nighthawk has a 20 STR and can lift 400gk With his skill levels he can do 10d6 dmg. That is the same as a superhuman that can lift 25 tons! This works for playability but is not very compatible with reality or comics. Even Cap the prime human doesn't hit 1/100th as hard as She-Hulk. It is ok in the comics since the writers have complete control of how the story and combat play out. But in game mechanics you have to equalize to some degree.

 

Now look at the throwing table: Thor and the Hulk have both thrown large tanks completely out of orbit. Um..what exactly is that STR score? However if you look at there lifting ability on the chart they would stat no higher than 60--80. Hulk can lift 90(over 100 when angry) tons which would be certainly no more than 200 in champions lift. With that 65 STR he could throw a tank 8 meters! Not exactly out of orbit. Grond with his 90 STR could throw it 28 meters. Wohoo!

 

Look at some of the knockback examples in comics. Hulk punched Juggernaut for miles once(didnt hurt him but how many body dice were rolled? Phoenix and Firelord blasted each other for miles once(not a scratch on either one) Even Wolverine got puched into orbit with escape velocity and survived! Exactly how much dice did he take and how much Body does he have? Even with 75% reduction he would be a dead dead mutant. One of the most classic knockbacks ever was Gladiator hitting Thing when they first met. Try to count the body required for Thing to crash completely through all of those vehicles and the distance he travelled. Dead Rockman. He was stunned and virtually dead but he lived(had his heart restarted by the Torch). And what kind of strength was that for that punch? You would have get thousands of body to do these things.

 

Marvl consistently and ridiculously underestimates the Strength levels of their characters. It is part of their whle marketing position of having more"human" characters than DC. Feat for feat Marvel characters are just as srong as DC characters and vastly stronger thn the Marvel editorial staff is willing to admit.

[JohnOSpencer]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

That is sad. I've played in similar campaigns myself; where the players treat it almost as a wargame or character-design competition rather than as role-playing.

 

I think one of the reasons our group works so well is because we are all friends above and beyond Champions. We go to movies and backyard barbeques with each other even if we're not role-playing. And because we like each other, we want to make sure we're not stepping on anyone's toes. It also doesn't hurt that we all like each other's characters. There is not a single character in our group that I can't say "That's a cool character" and mean it. I would happily play any other hero on our team.

 

Oh, we're all friends. Heck 4 of us work together. If you put them together then, all the hostility comes out. They actually proved they can work as a team, I gave them PRIMUS agents to run in addition to their normal characters and the PRIMUS agents were teamworking up and down the street. The superheroes were still just fighting single battles, except Spidey.

 

On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their comcept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea! )

 

John Spencer

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Really? Wow. Did each player had his schtick?

Yes, they each have their own schtick. These are the burdens we GMs must bear when 3 of our players all like to play martial arts characters. Fortunately they all do it well. Patriot, the Cap-clone, is the powerhouse martial artist; Shadow Stalker, the Batman-clone, is the streetfighter who uses stun discs and gadgets; Dragonfist, the Ironfist-clone, is the ninja, but watch out for that dragonfist punch!

 

They are all great role-players too, and it is a blast to watch Shadow Stalker and Dragonfist get into arguments, and then Patriot having to break them up. Now if I could just convince one of them to play an Energy Blaster or Mentalist, my life would be complete.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Monolith

Shadow Stalker, the Batman-clone, is the streetfighter who uses stun discs and gadgets;

 

I thought Shadow Stalker was the troll who uses foul language and gratuitous insults on message boards.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Gary

I thought Shadow Stalker was the troll who uses foul language and gratuitous insults on message boards.

You know, that player uses a lot of foul language at the game too. I wonder if there is a connection? Maybe we will have to take him outback and beat a confession out of him!

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Let it be known here that Nucleon comes here to discuss seriously about lighter stuff, or discuss lightly about serious stuff. Not for a minute does He takes himself too seriously, for He often writes about sterner stuff on other boards under His secret guise. Then he comes here to relax a bit while talking about His favorite Hobby.

 

And even thought He is haughty, never will he condescend to the level you displayed in that former post of yours. If you disagree, try to be constructive and open about it. If you can't, I suggest you to go somewhere quieter where dissidence will be more sparse. You'll feel better.

 

 

Just saying "leave" might've been easier. No thanks, I'll stay.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Yes, you were meaningful up to there. And Gary is 1-1-1 about the rules so far, even thought "relentless" about the rules would be more apt.

 

Oh, I was meaningful until I dared 'cheerlead' against you? YOU mentioned a rule, Gary called you on it. He proved you wrong and you wouldn't listen. He called up the FAQ, then you fall back on "Well, its an optional rule". He calls you on that, you still don't listen. I told Gary not to worry about you, you very clearly just wanted to argue. Now I see above, after YOU argued rules with him point-for-point for the past 3 pages, you (quite hypocritically) accuse HIM of relying too much on the rules. Whatever.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

"Starlord" is so much more serious than "Nucleon" for that matter. How would you feel if you were accused of not being serious by someone named "Toto the Clown", eh?

 

Yes...but I don't hide behind the excuse, "I'm debating serious matters IN CHARACTER.", just so I can be pretentious and condescending to people.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

Lastly, English is not Nucleon's first language.

That's why I used the 'funny, sticking out tongue' smiley. It wasn't a serious retort.

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

So have a care, mortal.

 

Or what? You blast me with Nucleonic energy?

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Stargazer

it seems, starlord, that u didnt catch Nucleon's way of writing...

wich is basicaly in character...

 

who cares if he speaks of himslef in the 3rd person or calls others mortals??

it just for theatrical...

and pointing out gramatical errors the way u did to Nukleon is something i find insulting... when u dont know where someone comes from u shouldnt say anything and take it as a typo...

i would very much like to see u post in Nucleon's mother tongue... and see how perfect u write.....and if utake someone's profile that seriously..u defnetly a long vacation.....

 

Careful there, Stargazer. This post constitutes 'cheerleading' according to Nucleon. He might be offended.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their comcept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea! )

 

John Spencer

 

I would ask him what he thinks is important about his character. A brick should be the strongest/toughest on the team. Ask him how he'd feel if 2 other guys wanted higher STR than him. Then he'd have nothing to stand out. Remind him that everyone will have the most fun if EVERYONE is happy with their characters. You can't 'have it all' when playing on a team.

 

Also, try a slight limitation like forcing everyone to have a certain amount of points spent on noncombat skills/talents/perks...say 30-50. Make sure you bring up situations where they can use some of those skills/talents/perks in the game also. With 50 less points to spend, your brick will worry more about his STR, defenses, and a few 'brick tricks' before he worries about that DEX and SPD.

 

If all else fails, THEN hit him with the lead pipe. He's a brick...so he can take it.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

Or what? You blast me with Nucleonic energy?

Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

 

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

Maybe Nucleon Will just Alter his Moleculo-Cosmic structure as to be impervious to your Raging Fist of Flame, Starlord.

 

 

Eh. I'm all hot air anyway. Obviously playing your way has worked for you...that is what is important.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

Obviously playing your way has worked for you...that is what is important.

 

I'll give you one better; when I come here, I mostly play by the system but you should see our extensive list of house rules.

 

 

I guess it all begin when first playing the game with gamers that made many rules errors, some 10-12 years ago. We learned the rules while playing, but were not ready to let go the way things worked before we knew the correct rule. Then there's the broken stuff. And the supplements (Ninja Hero had a big influence.)

 

I don't know at which extent seasoned HERO players use optional or house rules, or if the majority play in the most orthodox manner possible.

 

[Starlord]

Interrupting this thread for a special announcement:

 

Just noticed this...Happy Birthday, Morningstar.

 

My b-day was yesterday...what a coincidence.

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Nucleon

I'll give you one better; when I come here, I mostly play by the system but you should see our extensive list of house rules.

 

 

I guess it all begin when first playing the game with gamers that made many rules errors, some 10-12 years ago. We learned the rules while playing, but were not ready to let go the way things worked before we knew the correct rule. Then there's the broken stuff. And the supplements (Ninja Hero had a big influence.)

 

I don't know at which extent seasoned HERO players use optional or house rules, or if the majority play in the most orthodox manner possible.

 

 

I'm weird too. My two main games are HERO and D&D. For HERO, I've almost exclusively played by the rules. Very strict.

 

For D&D, almost everything was optional. Things would change from week to week almost.

[Morningstar]

Thanks Starlord! I didn't even know I poste dthat info! 37 today! 17 seems like yesterday.

[Hermit]

Not sure but...

 

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

 

On topic, how do you subtly convince someone that their concept is too powergamey for your game? The new characters currently have an average DEX of 21 and speed 5. One guy wants to make a brick and is immediatly talking about DEX 26+ and SPD 6. I want to subtly discourage him, and I'm about as sublte as a lead pipe to the forehead(heeey...that's not a bad Idea! )

 

John Spencer

 

Hmm, if I recall, Skill Levels in HTH can be used to up the damage on your dice. Dangle that carrot in front of him as you reccomend it over the Dex and see if he bites. Might also see if he has a 'Brick Trick' he finds really neat, and dangle it instead of the 6 SPD. Even if you grant it as a Naked Advantage that can be used on his STR.