Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

[Mentor]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

We went the other route. Surprisingly' date=' to me at least, the person who pushed the most for us to stick to the less pleasant aspects of the genre is the only "person of color" in the group.[/quote']

Good luck in the campaign.

 

To clarify our stuation, racism and sexism will exist realistically in our world, just not amongst our charactyers (at least not blatantly, so far) I think one can have good campaign and still address the issues of bigotry without having the actual PCs be bigots.

 

I ran a Western campaign years ago in which one of the NPCs was a naive newly freed slave and there was significant tension over the realism of the bigotry and hate on the part of some of the villains. Most of the tension was from me, who was running the game and thus the bigoted characters. I found it to be a very unpleasant experience, although the players seemed to be OK with how it was handled.

[Publius]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Most of the tension was from me' date=' who was running the game and thus the bigoted characters. I found it to be a very unpleasant experience, although the players seemed to be OK with how it was handled.[/quote']I had to do this myself in various contexts. You are going always for verisimilitude, to keep up that suspension of disbelief, and sometimes this can be a bear with sensitive topics and speech. It is interesting when players feel it though. In a one-shot game set in the late 19th century there was a player trying to be true to his character (a man cursed during the Civil War), using terms in his speech that made him (the player) very uncomfortable. In the end, he was very glad it was a one-shot.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I had to do this myself in various contexts. You are going always for verisimilitude' date=' to keep up that suspension of disbelief, and sometimes this can be a bear with sensitive topics and speech. It is interesting when players feel it though. In a one-shot game set in the late 19th century there was a player trying to be true to his character (a man cursed during the Civil War), using terms in his speech that made him (the player) very uncomfortable. In the end, he was very glad it was a one-shot.[/quote']

 

While the current atttude is that certain words were freely used to describe blacks and others, from my own reading it was regarded as bad manners to use them towards blacks or other minorities (i.e., Jews, Irish, Chinese...) you actually respected or simply didn't need to order around. Some people did use them freely at every opportunity, but they were the sort of people who would probably use them as freely today.

 

And there were always some people who you just didn't speak roughly too -- not if you wanted to make it through the night alive.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Agreed. The PC version of Huckleberry Finn lacks the visceral feeling of the original' date=' where Jim is continually called "******" and "boy", when Huck concludes that he'd rather go to hell than leave his friend Jim in slavery at the end. Without society's degradation of Jim, Huck's judgement of right and wrong as an individual loses most of its strength.[/quote']

 

There was a PC version of Huckleberry Finn? That's just wrong. Unless you mean various movies or TV/Radio adaptations. I've heard some of those. I deplore the bowdlerization but understand that they could not be presented otherwise. If I had to produce a version of HF and was unable, due to broadcast standards and practices or community sentiment, to use the authentic verbiage, I would make darn sure I included a disclaimer before the show, explaining the necessity.

 

On a related note, has anybody notice how difficult it is to find a copy of Doctor Doolittle in print? Try sometime. The original had the Doctor helping a little African prince realize his life-long ambition to be white. It's so offensive by modern standards that most people won't even bother reading it. I have an edition that has re-written that single chapter to re-cast the princes goal as being a lion, a symbol with many positive qualities in African literature. Censorship? Yes, but at least the book is in print and the authors included a long explanation detailing the changes and why they felt they were necessary.

 

 

If you did a game in 1930s - 40s Germany' date=' and never once mentioned any of the elements going on with the Jews, or in 1800s USA, and ignored both slavery and the genocide of the indiginous people - that would be -EXTREMELY- offensive to most people, and especially 'people not bleached' such as myself.[/quote']

 

A few years back, the Superman comic had a storyline that took place in WWII era Germany (or Poland?). Superman helped the oppressed Jews, who were protrayed as Jews, given Jewish names and who were steeped in Jeweish culture and tradition. Why did people scream and complain? Because through an editorial oversight, they never actually used the term "Jew" or "Jewish" in print. It was implicit in the context, but people found one nitpicky thing to complain about. sigh...

 

Keith "Some of my best friends are Kryptonians" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

For a very on-topic cartoon, point your browser at:

http://www.galactanet.com/comic/532.htm

 

Keith "C&A fan" Curtis

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

 

On a related note, has anybody notice how difficult it is to find a copy of Doctor Doolittle in print? Try sometime. The original had the Doctor helping a little African prince realize his life-long ambition to be white. It's so offensive by modern standards that most people won't even bother reading it.

 

Whoa. I did not know that. No wonder.

 

I have an edition that has re-written that single chapter to re-cast the princes goal as being a lion, a symbol with many positive qualities in African literature. Censorship? Yes, but at least the book is in print and the authors included a long explanation detailing the changes and why they felt they were necessary.

 

That is a bit more appropriate, given that the Doctor talks to animals.

 

JG

[Mentor]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Somewhat on the subject, I am rereading the Flashman series by George McDonald Fraser and the Victorian attitudes are well representatives as are those of the non Europeans.

 

Flashman, according to the narratives, casually feels free to bully and mistreat those socially beneath him, i.e. women, the lowborn, European or American foreigners, not to be confused with ni**ers, who comprise all non European foreigners, including native Americans. The French were "Frogs" and the Germans and Eastern Europeans worse. He was one of those who really believed that the "Wog" started at Calais.

 

Ironically, he himself was kicked out of the 11th Hussars for marrying a commoner, was often looked down upon by other proper English gentlemen for trafficking with the "wogs" and base born.

 

When in foreign lands, he occasionaly had to pass as an Arab, Persian, Afghani, or Indian (both kinds) and commonly imprisoned or tortured by the same while being referred to as feringee, nasrani, infidel, etc, reminding readers that bigotry and racism was not unique to the British, Europeans or Westerners.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Quick question about the Flashman series: is it any good, and just what is the 'tone' of it? I've gotten the idea that it's a cross between action/adventure and comedy, with a very rotten main character as the source of most of the humor.

[Mentor]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Quick question about the Flashman series: is it any good' date=' and just what is the 'tone' of it? I've gotten the idea that it's a cross between action/adventure and comedy, with a very rotten main character as the source of most of the humor.[/quote']

Flashman is replete with fascinating approaches to real historical events. Your view of of the character is correct. Just when you get to like Flashman, he does something absolutely reprehensible, but the narration is completely honest. There are numerous subsle and nuanced layers to the real messages of the stories.

 

The approach to historical fiction is very politically incorrect. For example, he allows that while slavery and imperial treatment of African and other natives was terrible, given how British factory owners treated their workers, Russian nobility mistreated the Russian serfs, American English immigrants mistreated later immigrants or indigenous natives and Continental European nobles exploited pesants, shock and dismay over the treatment of Indians, Africans, and other natives was mostly for show of "enlightenment".

[Trebuchet]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Quick question about the Flashman series: is it any good' date=' and just what is the 'tone' of it? I've gotten the idea that it's a cross between action/adventure and comedy, with a very rotten main character as the source of most of the humor.[/quote']Just to second Mentor (I am rereading the Flashman books as Mentor finishes with them), it's an excellent series and IMO probably the best historical novels ever written. It's amazing how much you learn reading these books; and I highly recommend them to anyone who enjoys a good yarn. While the books are certainly not Politically Correct, Flashman is just as critical of his own society's stupidities and hypocricies as he is of others'.

 

The best single word to describe Harry Flashman is "cad." Since the books are entirely from his POV as they're written in the first-person singular (ostensibly as his memoirs), it's hard not to find Flashy somewhat likeable even though he's a cheat, liar, womanizer, thief, and arrant coward. OTOH, he's got a genuine gift with languages and he's a terrific horseman (Good thing, too, since he spends so much time riding away from outraged husbands!)

[Susano]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Just to second Mentor (I am rereading the Flashman books as Mentor finishes with them), it's an excellent series and IMO probably the best historical novels ever written. It's amazing how much you learn reading these books; and I highly recommend them to anyone who enjoys a good yarn. While the books are certainly not Politically Correct, Flashman is just as critical of his own society's stupidities and hypocricies as he is of others'.

 

The best single word to describe Harry Flashman is "cad." Since the books are entirely from his POV as they're written in the first-person singular (ostensibly as his memoirs), it's hard not to find Flashy somewhat likeable even though he's a cheat, liar, womanizer, thief, and arrant coward. OTOH, he's got a genuine gift with languages and he's a terrific horseman (Good thing, too, since he spends so much time riding away from outraged husbands!)

 

Allow me to recommend Frazier's book PIRATES, which has to be the funniest book about piracy, ever, and makes PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN look rather dull and mundane. However, Johnny Depp might just make a good Captain Blood!

[Curufea]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

For a very on-topic cartoon, point your browser at:

http://www.galactanet.com/comic/532.htm

 

Keith "C&A fan" Curtis

 

There's also the various Disney toons that came out during WW2 and other propaganda that we would find offensive these days.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

There's also the various Disney toons that came out during WW2 and other propaganda that we would find offensive these days.

There's a reason you can't purchase "Song of the South" on VHS or DVD.

 

Keith "Zip-a-dee-doo-dah" Curtis

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

There's a reason you can't purchase "Song of the South" on VHS or DVD.

 

Keith "Zip-a-dee-doo-dah" Curtis

And that's one of the more mainstream ones.

 

JG

[jcfiala]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

There's a reason you can't purchase "Song of the South" on VHS or DVD.

 

Well, can't purchase it in America. I remember renting a Japanese Laserdisk of Song of the South a few years ago, and watching it, and I'm sure it's now available on DVD in Japan.

 

Quite frankly, it's not that good of a movie, overall. You're not missing much.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Well' date=' can't purchase it in America. I remember renting a Japanese Laserdisk of Song of the South a few years ago, and watching it, and I'm sure it's now available on DVD in Japan.[/quote']

 

Well, there's a lot of stuff you can get away with in Japan that would be considered horribly racist and/or sexist here.

 

JG

[Curufea]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

And in other countries that believe rewriting the past to fit the modern regime is a BAD thing.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

And in other countries that believe rewriting the past to fit the modern regime is a BAD thing.

 

Well, yeah, and there's also the fact that Disney just may not be selling that on DVD anymore, at least in this country.

 

JG

[Alverant]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Well, there's a lot of stuff you can get away with in Japan that would be considered horribly racist and/or sexist here.

 

JG

 

As an anime fan, I would agree and go a further. If you're thin-skinned about sexual or religious matters, I'm sure I can easily give you a list of a dozen titles that would be considered offensive. NGE for example.

[Alverant]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I found this article on MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9598717/

that deals directly where these types of stereotypes come from and how applicable they are today. Basically they're from a few examples that stick out in people's mind, events that have happened in the past and may not be true today, and cultural differences. For example we've seen the stereotype of the French eating frog legs. Because most Americans don't eat them and find the thought distasteful, the stereotype Frenchman eats them daily.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I found this article on MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9598717/

that deals directly where these types of stereotypes come from and how applicable they are today. Basically they're from a few examples that stick out in people's mind, events that have happened in the past and may not be true today, and cultural differences. For example we've seen the stereotype of the French eating frog legs. Because most Americans don't eat them and find the thought distasteful, the stereotype Frenchman eats them daily.

 

More like "Because we find the French distasteful, we say they eat frog legs."

 

JG

[Alverant]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

One of the reasons I posted a link is that it seems like everytime a TV show has a character that breaks a stereotype people complain about being PC. Have more than one minority in the central cast, they're being PC. Put a woman in charge, they're being PC. The hero isn't Christian, they're being PC. Stereotypes are rarely, if ever true, and breaking them shouldn't be considered being PC.

[bcholmes]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Um...so? "Man" is from the Old English word "Mann" which actually was intended to encompass the whole of the human race regardless of gender. So' date=' when saying "the race of Man", for example, one is not being sexist. If the usage of the word is a problem, as opposed to it's use (which are two different things) then I think you have a gripe. Otherwise I believe a bit of etymology would not go amiss in your education.[/quote']

 

I guess that this is a pretty clear example of why I seldom try to have this conversation in venues like this. I mean, you seem to think that that's an original argument. (In fact, you seem so pleased with the argument, that you've decided to punctuate it with a little barb about my education. Sigh).

 

It's not an original argument. At all. I suppose I could barb right back, and suggest that maybe some Judith Butler or the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis might be nice additions to your reading list. But as Zen teachers often say, I think you need to empty your cup first.

 

I'm honestly not meaning to start a fight, but you're using one stereotype to defraud another. "Gamers are egotistical and less than truthful with themselves" is such a blanket statement--and a negative one at that--that everything else you say after that is kinda hypocritical.

 

Um. So you think it's hypocritical for me (a gamer) to generalize my own personal experiences about other gamers when I'm criticizing the representation of women in a company run by men and talking about how that representation feeds into the overall social apparatus that discriminates against women. You think those situations are comparable. That's... kinda noteworthy.

 

I think that you're reducing issues of sexism, racism, etc. to actions. Again, that's pretty typical of a certain subject position in this kind of argument.

 

I think there are pretty compelling arguments that say such things as:

 

- the speaker/do-er is significant

- the speaker's subject position is significant

- the cultural context is significant

- the intention is significant

 

These things work together to imbue actions with meanings. And in this case, I would assert that the meanings aren't the same. To use a crude analogy, it's like you're saying, "It's just as bad for a mouse to step on an elephant's foot as it is for an elephant to step on a mouse's foot." One of those things is quite a bit more fraught, no?

 

Anyway, your arguments seem to be based on a thesis that my choices and the choices that I'm criticizing are somehow equivalent. I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. And I don't mean to be crass, but I think that you'd need more background knowledge before you could really understand why you're mistaken.

[Steve Long]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

This has gone well beyond anything relevant to this forum. If any of you want to continue this discussion, take it to NGD.