Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

[arcady]

I haven't picked up a copy yet, but I read the initial section in the local store yesterday.

 

I wanted to say that I do strongly appreciate the open recognition of the roots and truth of this genre. Such statements go a -LONG- way towards smoothing ill waters. The recognition of the very strong themes of sexism and racism in the fiction of the Pulp era was honest, thorough, not dismissive in the way so many people in the rpg-hobby have been over the issue (in this and other genres), and for once insistant about the need to stay aware of how it is dealt with in gaming.

 

I didn't get the book yet, because I went home with Teen Champions and the Combat handbook instead (and I was glad to see an address to the issues of racism in the teen book as well under cliques), but it will go on the list in time.

[Steve Long]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Thanx! That sort of stuff can be tough to write, since so many people have such strong opinions on the subject, but I wouldn't have felt comfortable just ignoring the subject.

[Curufea]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

True - but it is important to the genre.

 

History (and I feel very strongly about this), History SHOULD NEVER, under any ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be modifed, made politically correct, fitted to the current regimes rules on morality or "sanitised for youngens".

 

It's the first steps towards despotic dictatorships.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

It is good to try and understand past cultures on their own terms, and to present them accurately in fiction, warts and all. Though from what little actual pulp I've read myself, out-and-out racism didn't show up very often. It was more some foolish (by our standards) assumptions. Though there were some glaring exceptions (R. E. Howard's _Black Canaan_, anyone?)

 

And I'd rather the subject was at least briefly discussed in the book than simply ignored.

[Mentor]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

While our campaign will take place in the real world, we have decided to make our Pulp Heroes the exceptions to most cultures as applicable to sexism and racism. The British hero will view the Commonwealth as a potential for unification of all subjects of the King. The American will be a tolerant and forward looking champion of individual merit and equality. The Chinese will be educated, complex and as patriotic and unselfish about his people as the European. While the other players are still decidng what to play, it is our intent to represent the best that the world has to offer within the context of a very flawed world.

[Publius]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

True - but it is important to the genre.

 

History (and I feel very strongly about this), History SHOULD NEVER, under any ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be modifed, made politically correct, fitted to the current regimes rules on morality or "sanitised for youngens".

 

It's the first steps towards despotic dictatorships.

While I understand your feelings, keep in mind that not all pulps are entirely historical (especially mixed genre). Sure a lot of them were, but not all even at the time, and in a gaming environment they don't have to be.

 

For instance, much of the Steampunk I have done in the past (which is similar to, but not the same as, a Pulp setting) has taken place in "worlds that might have been" type settings, where key events of the past are altered or entire cultures inverted. Not all pulp has to be bound by the history of our mundane world, if we can invent worlds where guys shoot lightning bolts from their behinds we can craft a world that is better than ours in some respects, worse in others or somewhere in between. As long as it is not passed off as "historical" I see little problem.

 

Space-pulp is a broad example, but it isn;t always in space. I have a copy of a Sam Jacks pulp for instance which is set in a "might-be" future, which is so amazingly 40s that without the robots you'd hardly know the difference. There is a hint of sexism, but it doesn't have to be throughout the culture; it might just be that the main character has a ...problem with women like Doc Savage :meaningful look:

 

Amazon Anne (http://home.comcast.net/~clayburnham/amazonanne.htm) is another example of a 'might-be' universe.

[Curufea]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Very true.

 

It's silly to think Pulp Hero will always be used for completely historical settings. But as its a genre book, it presents the actual history - mainly because you can research that, and you can't work out what imaginative things the players will do.

I'm just talking about the book itself, not games based on it that can be set anywhere/when.

 

Also- I don't think everyone is exactly the same. People always vary - there will be more, and less racist folks.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

True - but it is important to the genre.

 

History (and I feel very strongly about this), History SHOULD NEVER, under any ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be modifed, made politically correct, fitted to the current regimes rules on morality or "sanitised for youngens".

 

Absolutely true. Even sanitizing works of fiction leads to burning copies of "Catcher in the Rye" but also leads down another, initially less harmful path. Looking back at past works/genres and recasting them for your own time just gives liscence for others to do the same later down the road, again, and again, etc. until it's not only sanitised but has no connection to it roots. It may go as far as to be warped beyond recognition.

 

Adm

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Agreed. The PC version of Huckleberry Finn lacks the visceral feeling of the original, where Jim is continually called "******" and "boy", when Huck concludes that he'd rather go to hell than leave his friend Jim in slavery at the end. Without society's degradation of Jim, Huck's judgement of right and wrong as an individual loses most of its strength.

 

(Edit) And apparently the Hero discussion boards version would lack a good portion of it as well....

 

(Re-edit) But I will say, however, that I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to emulate a lot of the stuff I've seen in the pulps. It's one thing to read an old work with the times in mind, and another to essentially create a new one along the same lines.

[Barton]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I GM'ed my "Pulp Heroes of 1938" at Indy GenCon just a few weeks ago. I had a VERY interesting group of players, white males, a black woman, and a German national. My game was very much based on real history of the Italian occupation of Ethiopia. I made sure that the players understood that in that era thinking was different (working women were unusual, Africans were considered not equal to Europeans). The players however were NOT required to act in any way, it just provided "flavor" to the game. Of course, no one used any racially insulting comments or words.

I believe that pointing out how people thought in Pulp Era not only adds to the "flavoring" but teaches how ideas about race relations and relations between the sexes have changed in the last 70 years.

The entire group of players seemed to have a great time.

[bcholmes]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

History (and I feel very strongly about this)' date=' History SHOULD NEVER, under any ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be modifed, made politically correct, fitted to the current regimes rules on morality or "sanitised for youngens".[/quote']

 

Um. The world of Pulp Hero isn't really history, though. It's a modern recreation of a style of fictional world that was written about in the past.

 

Obviously, you're free to be as "unsanitized" or "politically incorrect" as you wish in your games, but I would never, for example, play in a campaign with players who weren't willing to critically examine the nature and role of sexism and racism in any particular genre.

 

I've had a growing problem with the sexism in a lot of the Hero books, and that's finally affected my buying habits. I look forward checking out _Pulp Hero_ -- especially hearing that Hero Games has chosen try to address this issue head-on.

[arcady]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I also agree that history should never be sanitized. I would also say the generally the people who advocate for a 'PC world today' (which is nothing more than strive to treat everyone else as an equal and respect their differences) also tend to work to undo a lot of the 'sanitizing', 'propaganda' and 'political use' of history as it was read about or recorded in past by adding in the things not let in before - such as the truth of how minority groups live and lived in the USA rather than the version of suh our parent's generation got in their history education.

 

Pulp that recreates history has to deal with a world that is very ignoble. Modern users of the genre may or may not choose to have protagonists reflect this as well. I myself, if I were doing historical pulp, might very well make a protagonist who was either a perpetraitor or victim of this reality - but then I'm not a fan of idealistic characters or idealistic notions.

[bcholmes]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I also agree that history should never be sanitized. I would also say the generally the people who advocate for a 'PC world today' (which is nothing more than strive to treat everyone else as an equal and respect their differences) also tend to work to undo a lot of the 'sanitizing'' date=' 'propaganda' and 'political use' of history as it was read about or recorded in past by adding in the things not let in before - such as the truth of how minority groups live and lived in the USA rather than the version of suh our parent's generation got in their history education.[/quote']

 

That's a very interesting perspective, and well stated. I'm going to ponder that for a bit.

 

Speaking only for myself, when people say, "you can't judge the past by modern standards" or "it's true to the genre", I think I hear "I don't want to concern myself too much with functions of racism/sexism in my entertainment."

 

To use a specific pulp-like example, the Dr. Who episode, _The Talons of Weng Chiang_ uses elements of the "yellow peril" themes of victorian / pulp stories, but (in my opinion), fails to do so in a way that enables one to critically examine the functions of racism in those stories. The end result is something that (again, in my opinion) perpetuates racism, rather than shines a light on such racism.

[MitchellS]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

That's a very interesting perspective, and well stated. I'm going to ponder that for a bit.

 

Speaking only for myself, when people say, "you can't judge the past by modern standards" or "it's true to the genre", I think I hear "I don't want to concern myself too much with functions of racism/sexism in my entertainment."

 

To use a specific pulp-like example, the Dr. Who episode, _The Talons of Weng Chiang_ uses elements of the "yellow peril" themes of victorian / pulp stories, but (in my opinion), fails to do so in a way that enables one to critically examine the functions of racism in those stories. The end result is something that (again, in my opinion) perpetuates racism, rather than shines a light on such racism.

I don't want to concern myself too much with functions of racism/sexism in my entertainment. It's a very simple thing for 6 white guys to sit around a gaming table and try to maintain historical accuracy. This becomes much harder when you have a mixture of races and sexes at your table. The women don't want to play the damsel in distress just to maintain historical/genre accuracy. I'm also sure my black friends don't want to play the "boy" and my Japanese friends don't want to play from inside an American internment camp. The game is supposed to be fun for everyone and if that means overlooking the fact that everyone who wasn't a white male was a second-class [or lower] citizen then I'm generally happy to do so.

[Chimpira]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I usually do not try to address the ethnic make up of my group on forums, mainly because it does not matter but my group is comprised of Two asian american males, one latin american male, two (shrug) european american male and one european american woman with an African american GM (that would be me). Before we started our game I informed my players that some racism and sexism will be included but not an over powering amount that would make the game horrible to play. (example. On one occassion, the group infiltrated a party, the three european players mingled as guests and one of the asian players had to get in as a dishwasher and then bribe his way into a waiters outfit. The other two players waited outside.) We went through our first big story arc and it worked out well. I am glad that they have taken the time to emphasize the role sexism and racism played throughout the genre. My game takes place in the twenties.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

 

I've had a growing problem with the sexism in a lot of the Hero books, and that's finally affected my buying habits. I look forward checking out _Pulp Hero_ -- especially hearing that Hero Games has chosen try to address this issue head-on.

 

Where was the sexism in the other Hero books?

 

JG

[bcholmes]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Where was the sexism in the other Hero books?

 

I hesistate to even begin, because (in my experience) male gamers have little to no background with feminism or gender theory. What's worse, because gamers tend to view themselves as smarter-than-average and more-creative-than-average, they're less than truthful with themselves about that area of ignorance.

 

But you asked, so I'll answer. I could start with the writer's guidelines:

 

Like it or not, English is a male-default language. When referring to people in general, use "he," "him," and so forth. Do not vary from this rule, ...

 

Or the way that the successor to _Normals Unbound_ has become _Everyman_? Or that the race of humans became "Men" in the Turakian Age.

 

I think that the use of sexist language is sexist. And I am unsympathetic to the tired old canard: "well, English is sexist; it's not our fault."

 

It amazes me that gamers are able to ignore 30 years of discourse about this very topic. Just about every other industry has evolved its use of language. But not Hero Games.

 

I could also talk about the obsession that some of the artists have with big-breasted women? Fantasy Hero p. 376 is a rather glaring example. Most of that artist's work is pretty tiring in that way.

 

The constant presentation of women as titilation really grates on me.

 

The standard defense seems to be that scantily-clad women is "in genre" -- in the fantasy genre, the supers genre, etc. And yet, I think that Peter Jackson did a fairly good job of having a trilogy of fantasy movies without needing to put anyone in chainmail bikinis.

 

Turakian Age was a turning point for me. I just found the repeated sexism too irritating. ("In Khoria, Thun, Indushara, Vuran and Talarshand, women are essentially regarded as property." An old, old issue of _Dragon_ magazine satirized the gamer's defense: "But ancient, magical, fantasy societies really were sexist!")

 

Prior to that, I had purchased every print product that Hero Games had produced. I had purchased 30 issues of Digital Hero, and two different versions of Hero Designer. I've even done the CBLDF thing. Because, really, I love love love the Hero system, and think that it's the best gaming system I've ever used. I GM and I've had a number of my players get into the system. But this year I bought three products, and I'm not all that interested in many more.

 

My perception is that Steve doesn't see the sexism as a problem. Heck, I don't even think he sees it at all. Steve has repeatedly said, in the past, that he doesn't think he can please everyone and that he isn't going to try. Fine. That's his prerogative. As part owner of Hero Games, he gets to make those calls because it's his business that's on the line.

 

But I'm glad that Hero Games has enough other customers.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I hesistate to even begin' date=' because (in my experience) male gamers have little to no background with feminism or gender theory. What's worse, because gamers tend to view themselves as smarter-than-average and more-creative-than-average, they're less than truthful with themselves about that area of ignorance.[/quote']

 

Indoctrination in the latest political theory is not the same thing as education, or even lack of ignorance.

 

But you asked, so I'll answer. I could start with the writer's guidelines:

 

Or the way that the successor to _Normals Unbound_ has become _Everyman_? Or that the race of humans became "Men" in the Turakian Age.

 

I think that the use of sexist language is sexist. And I am unsympathetic to the tired old canard: "well, English is sexist; it's not our fault."

 

As Bull Shannon would put it: "OOOOOooooooooooooookay." Even German requires one to arrange nouns by gender-based article. English is one of the few European languages that doesn't. We do not have the advantage of living in a social structure that was designed by a Women's Studies conference. It's not so much a case of "it's not our fault", it's that it is what it is.

 

I could also talk about the obsession that some of the artists have with big-breasted women? Fantasy Hero p. 376 is a rather glaring example. Most of that artist's work is pretty tiring in that way.

 

The constant presentation of women as titilation really grates on me.

 

You must not see the NGD very much, then.

 

 

The standard defense seems to be that scantily-clad women is "in genre" -- in the fantasy genre, the supers genre, etc. And yet, I think that Peter Jackson did a fairly good job of having a trilogy of fantasy movies without needing to put anyone in chainmail bikinis.

 

Jackson also had the singular advantage of adapting Tolkien, whose female characters were so tangential and infrequently seen as to be under virtual purdah. (Recall, it was Tolkien who in his books generically referred to humanity as "Men." Was that the point you were complaining about?) This is why Jackson had to give Arwen extra lines. If he'd adapted the Wheel of Time, you'd have a better point, because while many of us complain about that series, female characters have a prominent place in the society and none of them wear chainmail bikinis.

 

 

Turakian Age was a turning point for me. I just found the repeated sexism too irritating. ("In Khoria, Thun, Indushara, Vuran and Talarshand, women are essentially regarded as property." An old, old issue of _Dragon_ magazine satirized the gamer's defense: "But ancient, magical, fantasy societies really were sexist!")

 

In my TA game, the issue rarely if ever came up, because I wasn't running things in the southern continent or in Khoria. If I had been, I would have needed to address it- which, bear in mind, is NOT the same thing as endorsing it. If you had read deeper into TA, you would have noted that there were some sects of the High Church that wanted to perform guerrilla-type operations against the Khorians/Harge****es because of their backward sexist attitudes.

 

Just as, in a modern day game, you have to address the fact that America IS a lot LESS sexist than the rest of the world, and if the characters go to India, Indonesia, or much of the "Third World", attitudes toward women are going to be a lot more "traditional", if not oppressive. Certainly it's a character factor for a PC who comes from one of those places.

 

We have the option of creating fiction where things are as we like them to be. That does not change the fact that there are parts of the world where things are NOT as we would like them to be... and if nothing else, it creates some drama if the setting is not completely perfect.

 

 

My perception is that Steve doesn't see the sexism as a problem. Heck, I don't even think he sees it at all. Steve has repeatedly said, in the past, that he doesn't think he can please everyone and that he isn't going to try. Fine. That's his prerogative. As part owner of Hero Games, he gets to make those calls because it's his business that's on the line.

 

Well, yeah. I personally don't think it's absolutely necessary to only use the universal male pronoun; one could alternate between 'he' and 'she'- it is even acceptable to use 'they', which compensates for the fact that English doesn't use hypothetical pronouns well. But as you say, it's his call, and it isn't such a big deal to me that it turns me off to the games. Certainly I don't think it qualifies as sexism. It might qualify as lack of regard to the issue, which is not the same thing.

 

JG

 

P.S.: Right now, the only thing that turns me off to Hero Games is the fact that their website uses a censorware program that won't even let me spell the made-up word "Harge****e."

[bcholmes]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Indoctrination in the latest political theory is not the same thing as education' date=' or even lack of ignorance.[/quote']

 

I think such statements make clear to me that we will find no common ground in this conversation.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I think such statements make clear to me that we will find no common ground in this conversation.

 

Agreed.

 

JG

[Guest George Kirby]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

While our campaign will take place in the real world' date=' we have decided to make our Pulp Heroes the exceptions to most cultures as applicable to sexism and racism.[/quote']

 

 

We went the other route. Surprisingly, to me at least, the person who pushed the most for us to stick to the less pleasant aspects of the genre is the only "person of color" in the group.

[Curufea]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

Interestingly in the early days of the English language, the meaning of "men" had nothing to do with one sex or another. Males also hade a prefix to "man".

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=man&searchmode=none

 

However, that's beside the point - language isn't about the past. It evolves constantly and all we should worry about is current usage.

[arcady]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

We went the other route. Surprisingly' date=' to me at least, the person who pushed the most for us to stick to the less pleasant aspects of the genre is the only "person of color" in the group.[/quote']This is no surprise, nor should it be.

 

If you did a game in 1930s - 40s Germany, and never once mentioned any of the elements going on with the Jews, or in 1800s USA, and ignored both slavery and the genocide of the indiginous people - that would be -EXTREMELY- offensive to most people, and especially 'people not bleached' such as myself.

 

Denial of the true horrors of history or of the state of mind of the people who commited that history is more offensive than an exploration of that history by vast leaps.

 

To keep this on point, the Pulp genre is littered with racist themes, and the worst thing you can do is act in denial of that. Ideally you should either make heroes who rise above it, villains who revel in it, or be true to genre and make villains who rise above it and heroes who revel in it -IN GAME- while acknowledging and perhaps even examining out of game that your characters are not you, but rather there but for the grace of god and 70 years of progress go I.

 

In the last year or so I've taken to making complex villains as my characters, precisely because I find idealism and its desire to deny truth so dangerous. So I make people who are 'true to their moment' and explore if they can become something better than the idealists or sink into their own failings.

 

Pulp however, is an idealist genre - and in fact I suspect that is why it managed to be so easily full of racist norms and stand up as a tool of propaganda to promote the ideals of racialism. You can acknowledge that, game to it as an excercise in seeing that thankfully fading worldview, or you can game around it in one way or another - but if you deny it's presence you actually work to uphold its norm in the present day context (a problem that doesn't exist doesn't get fixed).

 

This is -NOT- to say that these elements need be the only thing you explore. There are a lot of positive elements in the genre and in history that can be looked at and made into central themes. But doing so while denying the existance of the unpleasant side is the very act of 'revisionism' that is so dangerous.

[James Gillen]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

This is my take on it:

 

In the later seasons of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, there were several ongoing plotlines. One was where Bashir had a new sentient holodeck character installed in Quark's bar named "Vic Fontaine", who was modeled after the Las Vegas lounge singers of the late 50s-early 60s. At the same time, Captain Sisko was undergoing some spiritual development after the Prophets gave him visions of what life was actually like for African-Americans like himself during the same time period.

 

At one point, Vic's program was threatened when mobsters tried to buy out his casino, and Bashir found out that the program would crash if he eliminated them- it was a role-playing challenge to be resolved "in character" by running a caper on the mobsters to thwart their buyout. Most of the crew volunteered to help Vic and Bashir, but it turned out that Sisko was one of the few crew members who never spent time in Vic's program and didn't want to participate in the scenario. When Sisko's wife asked why, he had to tell her that in those days, Las Vegas was so segregated (despite making its money from black entertainers) that it was called "the Missisippi of the West."

 

Eventually Sisko's wife convinced him that the scenario deliberately edited the worst aspects of real Las Vegas (otherwise, the characters wouldn't have been able to interact with non-Terran aliens, let alone the non-white Terrans) and ought to be regarded as what it was, a pleasant fantasy.

 

Which I think was the right way to go. It was supposed to be a virtual/fictional setting for entertainment, and I wouldn't have wanted Sisko to dwell on the matter too much- but I'm also glad that the DS9 scriptwriters didn't gloss over the real history just because it didn't fit the virtual world.

 

JG

[Vanguard00]

Re: Comments on sexism and racism at the outset of Pulp Hero

 

I hesistate to even begin' date=' because (in my experience) male gamers have little to no background with feminism or gender theory. What's worse, because gamers tend to view themselves as smarter-than-average and more-creative-than-average, they're less than truthful with themselves about that area of ignorance.[/quote']

I'm honestly not meaning to start a fight, but you're using one stereotype to defraud another. "Gamers are egotistical and less than truthful with themselves" is such a blanket statement--and a negative one at that--that everything else you say after that is kinda hypocritical.

 

But you asked, so I'll answer. I could start with the writer's guidelines:

 

Or the way that the successor to _Normals Unbound_ has become _Everyman_? Or that the race of humans became "Men" in the Turakian Age.

Um...so? "Man" is from the Old English word "Mann" which actually was intended to encompass the whole of the human race regardless of gender. So, when saying "the race of Man", for example, one is not being sexist. If the usage of the word is a problem, as opposed to it's use (which are two different things) then I think you have a gripe. Otherwise I believe a bit of etymology would not go amiss in your education.

It amazes me that gamers are able to ignore 30 years of discourse about this very topic. Just about every other industry has evolved its use of language. But not Hero Games.

Wow. Blatant stereotyping of gamers yet again. And "just about every other industry" has not evolved it's use of language. You're being selective with that paint brush of yours.

 

I could also talk about the obsession that some of the artists have with big-breasted women? Fantasy Hero p. 376 is a rather glaring example. Most of that artist's work is pretty tiring in that way.

 

The constant presentation of women as titilation really grates on me.

Why aren't you *****ing about the muscular men? Or the old wizards? You're not defending men, or the elderly. You're actually showing more sexism in your 'offended' rant than you probably intended to, or to which you will probably admit.

 

Besides, I like big-breasted women, too. The company knows it's demographics.

 

The standard defense seems to be that scantily-clad women is "in genre" -- in the fantasy genre, the supers genre, etc. And yet, I think that Peter Jackson did a fairly good job of having a trilogy of fantasy movies without needing to put anyone in chainmail bikinis.

"The Lord of Rings" is the basis for just about every fantasy genre convention we have today, with the possible exception of women in chainmail bikinis. For that we have to give credi--er, blame to Robert Howard for writing Red Sonja, and Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo and others for drawin' 'em so darn well.

 

There are plenty of examples of non-scantily clad women in fantasy art, literature and gaming, yet you choose to ignore those for the few that offend your sense of right and wrong in regards to sexism. That's hypocrisy of the highest order, m'friend. Methinks you need to take an objective step back and reevaluate your stance.

 

Turakian Age was a turning point for me. I just found the repeated sexism too irritating. ("In Khoria, Thun, Indushara, Vuran and Talarshand, women are essentially regarded as property." An old, old issue of _Dragon_ magazine satirized the gamer's defense: "But ancient, magical, fantasy societies really were sexist!")

Dude, fantasy genre or not, women were essentially property in many historical societies, and kinda still are in some societies today. It's a staple of the genre because it's historically accurate, and fantasy is about "what was" mixed with "what could've been".

 

It's interesting that you're upset about women being regarded as property in spite of the many references to general slavery throughout Fantasy Hero and it's various supporting books. One could almost infer that you're okay with male slavery, just not that of females. And no, I'm not being facetious. It does one little good to preach and rant about sexism against women when, by default and by lack of address, you're agreeing with all the stereotypes against men.

 

My perception is that Steve doesn't see the sexism as a problem. Heck, I don't even think he sees it at all. Steve has repeatedly said, in the past, that he doesn't think he can please everyone and that he isn't going to try. Fine. That's his prerogative. As part owner of Hero Games, he gets to make those calls because it's his business that's on the line.

Well, I can't and won't speak for Steve, but I think you're overreacting. You're actually a good example of political correctness gone too far, in my opinion. The whole point of the fantasy genre is that it's FANTASY! Cripes, did ya miss that part? Fantasy - imagination, dreams, unrestrained fancy. It's a fairy tale for any who are interested. If your fairy tale is against big-breasted women slaves, fine. My fairy tale has big-breasted women slaves, thank you very much. And it has large muscular barbarian warriors, and wizened old wizards, and chainmail bikinis (well, so far just leather ones, but I'm hopeful), and all that other stuff. It's all part of the package, baby.

 

You have a highly skewed view of the way things are, m'friend, and I say that with no animosity whatsoever. Your definition and defense of 'sexism' is way off, and your reaction to what is essentially both a game and an exercise in make-believe is a bit extreme.

 

But I'm glad that Hero Games has enough other customers.

Yeah, they do. Cool, huh?