Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

[Hugh Neilson]

An aside to the group as a whole (from another thread): The combination of Invisivbility and Desolid is the classic stealth/reconnaissance character, at kleast in SUpers games. Am I the only one who never previously recognized that, when such a character activates his Desolid, he immediately becomes visible to three sense groups. I don't think I've ever seen such a character take IPE on his Desolid!

 

Do most of us just accept the "invisible or incorporeal, not both" result, or do we forget that Desolid is a visible power?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

An aside to the group as a whole (from another thread): The combination of Invisivbility and Desolid is the classic stealth/reconnaissance character, at kleast in SUpers games. Am I the only one who never previously recognized that, when such a character activates his Desolid, he immediately becomes visible to three sense groups. I don't think I've ever seen such a character take IPE on his Desolid!

 

Do most of us just accept the "invisible or incorporeal, not both" result, or do we forget that Desolid is a visible power?

 

If a character has Armor... do we assume that overrides Invisibility.

 

We've always just played out the idea that buying the power Invisibility would encompass IPE for most static powers unless there was a clear SFX reason (most often a sound being created) that happens... like an invisible character with loud boot jets or something.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Roughly yes.

 

Powers that are self only and do not damage others often get the wave from me as a GM. I am trying to steer clear of the War Game roots of HERO and that means I pick and choose what effects I am going to deal with.

 

In your example yes I am going to allow the character to be invisible because that is what the power does: it turns you invisible. Not you *minus* your powers. As long as the character pays END or what have you the source of his powers (a limited version of IPE) and *all* of his defnse and body effecting powers get IPE just because the Player purchased Invisibility as a power.

 

That said Invisible Desolid Snipers with Mental Powers irk me because no one has ever shown me a mainstream Hero that does this in the comics.

 

Hawksmoor

[Bloodstone]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

We have a ghost character in the game. He has standard Desoildify and Invisibility, no fringe. We consider that enough.

 

The officail write up for Ghosts in the bestiary does not have IPE. If it were required then the ghosts Always on, Inherent Desolidify SFX would completly negate it's Invisibility to Sight, Hearing and Smell/Taste.

 

The only time I have put IPE on Desolidify was for a Kitty Pryde write up, since by defualt Desolidify makes you hazy and Kitty still look complelty solid even when half phased through an object.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

If a character has Armor... do we assume that overrides Invisibility.

 

As Armor costs no END by default, it's not visible. A Force Field is visible.

 

But the overall question is a good one. To what extent do we assume that Invisibility grants IPE on other powers which are normally visible to three senses?

 

On the one hand, I don't know of anyone who would let Invisibility render attack powers invisible. On the other, I've never encountered someone who required IPE on powers that did not cost END and therefore were not visible by default, rather than accepting the Invisibility power made it invisible. Nor have I ever had anyone argue the affects of an attack with STR (which costs END) would be visible.

 

The real problem lies, perhaps, in the visibility assumptions. A better default might be:

 

- "powers that affect only the user of the power are, by default, as visible as the user". This would cover growth, density increase, desolidification, shrinking, etc.

 

- "Powers that affect others are, by default visible to three sense groups". This would cover all attack powers, as well as (for example) Aid, unless restricted to "self only".

 

The defaults would have some specific power exceptions, such as mental powers.

 

I think I would take this one step further, and make "power is not visible" an adder to powers that affect only the user, and keep IPE only for powers that affect others.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

The only time I have put IPE on Desolidify was for a Kitty Pryde write up, since by defualt Desolidify makes you hazy and Kitty still look complelty solid even when half phased through an object.

 

That is how we have always used IPE Desolid too. And good points about the Beastiary. So we see that sometimes the most expensive build is not the correct one...at least according to official sources.

 

Hawksmoor

[RDU Neil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

You are right... from a hard line, rule specific POV, armor was a bad choice. My thing is... I think this is not really an issue... except that it points out some fundamental problems with the "Uses END makes ilt visible" metarule. There are a lot of places where old school power builds with SFX assumptions don't match up with a literal interpretation of the rules. I'd argue that most of this stems from one of the classic Hero issues where the metarule "SFX don't matter mechanically" really isn't true... since mechanics only mean something when used in game play... and SFX are critical to effective game play.

 

I really think that the SFX issue is at the crux of a lot of Hero breakdowns. Theoretically, as a beginning of a model, saying "SFX is not mechanically functional" that is fine... but only as model for building powers/characters, etc. Once you take a mechanic and define a power with it, SFX are critical and should be considered.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

The thing about visible power effects is that they are there to make the power visible. An example of visible power effects (from the book, I think) is that the character 'looks hazy' - you can tell they are not solid. Presumably you could have visible power effects like this that are in fact not visible if the character is invisible. Depends which ones you pick.

 

Mind you, I think we have to be very careful here as it is (potentially) a cheap way to get IPE on all your non-attack powers: just buy invisiblity.

 

Thinking about it (and i didn't before: my head also needs smacking) you should buy IPE, at least to some level, on desolid, if you want to be properly invisible when desolid.

 

Good thread, Hugh.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Am I the only one who never previously recognized that' date=' when such a character activates his Desolid, he immediately becomes visible to three sense groups. I don't think I've ever seen such a character take IPE on his Desolid![/quote']

 

Of course not. Nor would I make an Invisible character buy Invisible Power Effects for their Density Increase, Flight, Growth, or any other "Self Only" Power that costs Endurance. If you're Invisible, you're Invisible.

 

Now then, anyone who can see through your Invisibility can then see your various Powers, unless they, too, are bought with Invisible Power Effects. So someone who can see though your "Invisible to Normal Sight" cloaking field can then see that you are Desolid, Flying, and four hexes tall.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Invisibility covers this, under the Powers header (5ER pg192-193).

 

Essentially the GM should make sure the player isn't trying to get IPE cheaply. Also it states that Ivis. should cover Body Effecting Powers such as stretching, growth, etc...

 

It goes on stating the Invis. doesn't necessariy cover Movement Powers, depending on dramatic situation and how the Movement was defind: Flight leave a firey trail? Ivis. probably shouldn't cover it.

 

In the end it falls under Common Sense, Dramatic Sense and Game Balance from the GMs point of view.

 

In general, I don't see a reason not to allow Invis. to cover Desol. - up to the level of Invis. you bought. Invis.: Sight Group wouldn't make your Desol. visible but if it were a "Static Field Desol" you may still be able to hear it.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Sight Group wouldn't make your Desol. visible but if it were a "Static Field Desol" you may still be able to hear it.

 

That's an excellent point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

 

In the end it falls under Common Sense, Dramatic Sense and Game Balance from the GMs point of view.

 

 

Damn: I hate stuff that falls under common sense. The trouble is, despite being common, you can never find it when you need it.

 

Invisibility is one of those difficult to administer powers. My view tends to be consistency is important. If your flight leaves a visible trail, then it should NOT be visible when the invisibilty power is on if, say, your stretching is not visible. It is a cheap way to get IPE but as was noted on another thread not that long ago, which I can't now find, IPE is a lot less use for non-attack powers than attack powers, and what IS clear is that invisibility in no way covers attack powers, so it probably is not too much of an issue in practice.

 

Great thing to jaw about though

[Karmakaze]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

I haven't done Invisibility/Desolidification (largely because most of the local house rules in my area forbid it), but I have used Invisibility with a character with Teleport. In that case, we all assumed the SFX of the teleport were still visible (hence I took care to teleport in behind cover when infiltrating).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

The thing about visible power effects is that they are there to make the power visible. An example of visible power effects (from the book, I think) is that the character 'looks hazy' - you can tell they are not solid. Presumably you could have visible power effects like this that are in fact not visible if the character is invisible. Depends which ones you pick.

 

Mind you, I think we have to be very careful here as it is (potentially) a cheap way to get IPE on all your non-attack powers: just buy invisiblity.

 

Thinking about it (and i didn't before: my head also needs smacking) you should buy IPE, at least to some level, on desolid, if you want to be properly invisible when desolid.

 

Good thread, Hugh.

 

 

No... you shouldn't...

 

Only if you let mechanics and conflicting rule minutia push you around...

 

The system is there to serve you, not the other way around. Since this obviously has not been a big enough issue to occur even to gurus like yourself and Hugh until now... is it really worth worry about... Obviously not.

 

Let it go... move on to something that is actually a problem.

[zornwil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

I would ditto this, I mean really taking the Invisibility power AND Desolid should make you both, without your Desolid somehow betraying your position to most senses. There are other ways around this from a game level (such as Detects and Mental senses and so on, just depending on the SFX and the configuration). I think the rule that Invisibility normally makes the Body Affecting powers invisible makes sense. It shouldn't obscure that you just fired an Energy Blast or the like (unless you get nasty and buy IPE on the EB as well, which I've done for a villain or two). I don't generally think it should affect Movement Powers unless, as noted, they have some "extra" visibility issue. Personally, I wouldn't normally think of a Force Field as appearing on an Invisible character, though I can understand why and how some would.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

For non-attack powers, I usually let Invisibility cover them as per the cited rules. In some cases (and particularly if I think the player is just trying to get a cheap IPE on all powers), I will do the D&D-invisibility-lightsource type solution: the SFX of a power are still visible (perceivable) in some fashion, but not enough to give away the position of the character in a significant way.

 

For example, an invisible character who's Desolidification turns him into a cloud of mist might make the general area around him a bit foggy, even though it might not be totally obvious what the source of the mist is or where specifically it is centered. If he is really trying to be stealthy he could move slowly to try to make the accumulation/reduction of mist slow in an area, rely on people not being suspicious of a little mist (often hard to do indoors!), and/or make Stealth rolls. Then again, I am the sort who tends to think that Invisibility is a great compliment to Stealth but not a complete replacement for it. Being a superhero is no excuse for not buying Skills!!!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

I thought it was a standard rule, or possibly in the FAQ, that you didn't need to buy IPE to make Body Affecting Powers invisible while using Invisibility. Examples include Growth and Density Increase. Why not Desolidification? It's a Body Power too.

[Brainstorm]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

I had written another of my long-winded posts on the subject last night, but I was sleepy and it rambled more than my first post here, so I abandoned it. This is a good thing, because instead of going on at length about my personal approach to the issue, just noticed that 5ER 193 speaks in detail on the issue. While it implies that attacks should not be covered by Invisibility, it uses the "common sense, dramatic sense, game balance" paradigm for the rest. For the relentlessly technical types, this means it is an uncomfortable gray area. However, for the rest of us it means to make judgement calls on a case by case basis. I had been doing that all along anyway, and I do recall as a player in the early 90s getting into an argument about how using Shape Shift should not cause my character to forfeit Invisibility. In the end my character simply ducked out of the room and was able to carry out the impersonation I had planned, but only after some real life bickering and a seemingly punitive Disguise penalty based on the idea that I wasn't looking right at the subject while assuming his form. *grumble*

 

Even though I am not fond of throwing down heavy restrictions on character construction in superheroic campaigns, I do believe any characters capable of attacking while Invisible or Desolid deserve special scrutiny, and those capable of attacking while both other Powers are active probably will not meet with my approval. My concern is with balance, so I certainly would look more kindly on a character who becomes completely exhausted after a few Phases of Desolid + Invisibility than on a character who can spend all afternoon dishing out damage while remaining unseen and intangible. I like the idea of superpowered stealth as a tactical option (for surprise attacks or clean withdrawals) plus a comparatively safe method of reconnaissance, but I do not like the idea of combatants who are effectively invulnerable save for whatever special effect(s) Desolid doesn't cover. In any case, it seems like 5ER is pretty clear in passing along Invisibility + Desolid interactions to the GM's discretion. Assuming that the character is permitted and assuming the Desolid SFX doesn't involve vapor trails or glowing lights or anything of that nature, I would be inclined to say that both states can be sustained simultaneously. In fact, going Desolid while Invisible might not forfeit Invisibility even for a moment if the SFX is not particularly flashy.

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

[Agent X]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Of course not. Nor would I make an Invisible character buy Invisible Power Effects for their Density Increase, Flight, Growth, or any other "Self Only" Power that costs Endurance. If you're Invisible, you're Invisible.

 

Now then, anyone who can see through your Invisibility can then see your various Powers, unless they, too, are bought with Invisible Power Effects. So someone who can see though your "Invisible to Normal Sight" cloaking field can then see that you are Desolid, Flying, and four hexes tall.

[Agent X]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

For non-attack powers' date=' I usually let Invisibility cover them as per the cited rules. In some cases (and particularly if I think the player [i']is[/i] just trying to get a cheap IPE on all powers), I will do the D&D-invisibility-lightsource type solution: the SFX of a power are still visible (perceivable) in some fashion, but not enough to give away the position of the character in a significant way.

 

For example, an invisible character who's Desolidification turns him into a cloud of mist might make the general area around him a bit foggy, even though it might not be totally obvious what the source of the mist is or where specifically it is centered. If he is really trying to be stealthy he could move slowly to try to make the accumulation/reduction of mist slow in an area, rely on people not being suspicious of a little mist (often hard to do indoors!), and/or make Stealth rolls. Then again, I am the sort who tends to think that Invisibility is a great compliment to Stealth but not a complete replacement for it. Being a superhero is no excuse for not buying Skills!!!

Unless your character concept is that you are an ordinary joe who works at the car wash where he found the Power Stone.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Unless your character concept is that you are an ordinary joe who works at the car wash where he found the Power Stone.

...which can give you Skills as well as Powers, right?

[Agent X]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

...which can give you Skills as well as Powers' date=' right? [/quote'] You obviously don't have a Power Stone.

 

I suppose it could but it may not be in concept. What are you talking about when you say skills? Are you including combat skill levels?

 

What about Simple Ton, the superstrong, superdense guy with an I.Q. of 75?

[zornwil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

Unless your character concept is that you are an ordinary joe who works at the car wash where he found the Power Stone.

Maybe he has "KS: Slacker Culture" (though he wouldn't bother to buy it above a Familiarity...I mean, why bother...)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

What about Simple Ton' date=' the superstrong, superdense guy with an I.Q. of 75?[/quote']

 

What kind of skills do you suppose Captain Marvel (aka Billy Batson) has?

[zornwil]

Re: Stealth Characters - **SMACKS HEAD**

 

I think Billy Batson had a few social skills at a reasonable level. Not sure what else.