Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

ER... sorry, coming in late to this particular rant, but if we're talking about buying a library...

 

Player's Handbook

Dungeon Master's Guide

Monster Manual

 

Complete rules for ice/snow/cold environments? Frostburn.

Water/Pirate adventures? Stormwrack.

Psionics? Psionics Handbook & Enhanced Psionics Handbook

 

I have quite a few HERO books. Combat, FH, FREd, Grimoires I & II, etc. & so forth. HERO by itself is a playable game that requires imagination, but does cover some genres and gives plenty of example powers.

 

D&D is game that takes three books (called Core Rulebooks I - III) and "contains" the world of Greyhawk. I have somewhere between 10 & 15 Forgotten Realms books, 5 or 6 Eberron books and all 19 Ravenloft 3.0/3.5 books, and that only covers about 1/3rd of my total collection. Like Derek, I'm a DINK.

 

How is this significantly different from purchasing Valdorian Age? Or Turakian Age? People make books so we buy books so they make money. D&D is more approachable and it has pretty pictures, and a lot more marketing behind it. The mechanics appear to be equatable to me.

 

Core rules. Supplemental Rules. Genre books.

 

Or am I missing something?

Many of us are referring to how things used to be in the HERO line and/or how to update that for today's market. One of the early appeals of the HERO products was that there were several complete games sold, basically each substituting for today's genre books with a simple starter scenario and related support material, such as Danger International and (the original) Champions. One of the drawbacks, of course, was that most of the rules were repeated.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

That explains a lot, actually, as those who read my posts know that I freely admit I'm new here, although being lambasted for what I thought was a valid interpretation of "FREd" seems odd, other people have confirmed my original theory. Meh. As I'm fond of saying, note made.

 

I won't say a note of what, but note made.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

That explains a lot, actually, as those who read my posts know that I freely admit I'm new here, although being lambasted for what I thought was a valid interpretation of "FREd" seems odd, other people have confirmed my original theory. Meh. As I'm fond of saying, note made.

 

I won't say a note of what, but note made.

I hated the "FRed" designation, but anyway, I think bblackmoor was nitpicking that you or someone referred to 5th Edition Revised as FRed, whereas FRed really referred to the original 5th edition. Various permutations were discussed for 5ER (if you look around you can find a poll which includes a few silly names along the lines of FRed) but pretty much it got settled on just 5er or 5ER.

 

But it was obvious what was meant, anyway, and while there are differences between 5th and 5th Revised, to me it's a bit of ado about nothing. My fundamental praise and criticism of 5th is regardless of whether it's the original or revised 5th edition.

[proditor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Were the 4th edition rules sold without the backup Champions section? I didn't recall that. So it's like half the size?

Yeah, it had like a Viking, a secret agent, and a superhero (Quantum?) on the cover (I think, I'm only really sure about the Viking) and it was probably less than half the size as it was severely pared down and had limited artwork internally. Of course this is like the one week there aren't any on sale on E-bay, or I'd link ya to a pic. In the I.C.E. day, It was stock number 500 and called the Hero System Rulesbook. And thank you Derek for cataloging every book ever published.

[austenandrews]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Yeah' date=' it had like a Viking, a secret agent, and a superhero (Quantum?) on the cover (I think, I'm only really sure about the Viking) and it was probably less than half the size as it was severely pared down and had limited artwork internally. Of course this is like the one week there aren't any on sale on E-bay, or I'd link ya to a pic. In the I.C.E. day, It was stock number 500 and called the Hero System Rulesbook. And thank you Derek for cataloging every book ever published. [/quote']

That was a cool book. I rarely used the BBB after it came out. 5E should have been equally concise.

[Chuckg]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

The actual /rules/ in 5e are about as concise. Where I find 5e to be enormously helpful is in its plethora of examples, samples, and detailed explanations of ambiguous points of adjudication, often with suggestions as to the several ways it can be called.

 

We all remember the old joke, after all:

 

Q: How many Champions characters does it take to change a light bulb?

 

A: That's a DM call.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

That was a cool book. I rarely used the BBB after it came out. 5E should have been equally concise.

 

If 6e were equally concise, we'd have complaints about the lack of examples, clarifications, whatever they chose to pull out. I recall seeing a few posters complain that the rules for building kmartial maneuvers weren't in the core book, so they didn't get a "complete game", so there's some of that already.

 

If you try to make everybody happy, no one likes it.

[austenandrews]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

The actual /rules/ in 5e are about as concise. Where I find 5e to be enormously helpful is in its plethora of examples' date=' samples, and detailed explanations of ambiguous points of adjudication, often with suggestions as to the several ways it can be called.[/quote']

To be honest, I never flipped through Sidekick. Does it contain complete, concise rules without hundreds of pages of examples?

[austenandrews]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

If 6e were equally concise, we'd have complaints about the lack of examples, clarifications, whatever they chose to pull out. I recall seeing a few posters complain that the rules for building kmartial maneuvers weren't in the core book, so they didn't get a "complete game", so there's some of that already.

 

If you try to make everybody happy, no one likes it.

There are several demographics in play, though. The voluminous 5E might be great for old-timers who want twenty years' worth of rules compiled in a single place. But its size is the subject of ridicule for gamers beyond existing fans. If I hadn't played Hero before, I'd never buy 5E.

 

Anyway. Old debate.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

This might help:

 

I do not think that suggesting players get yet another book to add to the already staggering "minimum Hero library" is going to help.

 

And' date=' just a note as long as you're on a nitpick rant - your review of 5ER should be updated, or have a note appended, that the printing problems you go on and on about are no longer there as they switched printers and the quality on successive reprints is much much higher than that first run.[/quote']

 

When Hero Games sends me a replacement, I'll update the review.

 

I hated the "FRed" designation' date=' but anyway, I think bblackmoor was nitpicking that you or someone referred to 5th Edition Revised as FRed, whereas FRed really referred to the original 5th edition.[/quote']

 

No, really I just hate the nickname "Fred", and intend to poke holes in any and all of the silly, made-up reasons for calling the game that (such as pretending that it's an acronym, when it isn't).

 

Everybody needs a hobby, and that's one of mine. So there.

 

The voluminous 5E might be great for old-timers who want twenty years' worth of rules compiled in a single place. But its size is the subject of ridicule for gamers beyond existing fans.

 

And that's fine... if you want Hero System to go the way of Star Fleet Battles.

[incrdbil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

When Hero Games sends me a replacement' date=' I'll update the review.[/quote']

 

 

And that transforms your review to 'outdated rant'.

[Kirby]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

When Hero Games sends me a replacement' date=' I'll update the review.[/quote']

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

To be honest' date=' I never flipped through Sidekick. Does it contain complete, concise rules without hundreds of pages of examples?[/quote']

Yes except it lacks just enough to be incomplete, such as Damage Reduction (VPP? - can't recall). What it lacks are things that aren't absolutely essential, but still rather widely used.

[Chuckg]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

When Hero Games sends me a replacement' date=' I'll update the review.[/quote']

 

Man, and I thought *I* could get silly.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

No, really I just hate the nickname "Fred", and intend to poke holes in any and all of the silly, made-up reasons for calling the game that (such as pretending that it's an acronym, when it isn't).

 

Everybody needs a hobby, and that's one of mine. So there.

Hey, didn't you used to (maybe still do) spend a lot of time on the superhero newsgroup?

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

And that transforms your review to 'outdated rant'.

 

It's a detailed review of a product I purchased. No more, no less. If the manufacturer (who has been notified of the problems) replaces the product with one that corrects the deficiencies, the review will be updated. That is SOP for reviews of any type.

 

Edit: As for it being a "rant", it's not even a negative review, much less a rant.

[Kirby]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

To be honest' date=' I never flipped through Sidekick. Does it contain complete, concise rules without hundreds of pages of examples?[/quote']

Pretty much. When a ftf gamer in my group wanted FREd but the store ordered her FH, I suggested she purchase Sidekick before she considered buying FREd; though, when 5ER came out, I let her know, but still suggested Sidekick first.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I do not think that suggesting players get yet another book to add to the already staggering "minimum Hero library" is going to help.

 

 

 

When Hero Games sends me a replacement, I'll update the review.

 

 

 

No, really I just hate the nickname "Fred", and intend to poke holes in any and all of the silly, made-up reasons for calling the game that (such as pretending that it's an acronym, when it isn't).

 

Everybody needs a hobby, and that's one of mine. So there.

 

 

 

And that's fine... if you want Hero System to go the way of Star Fleet Battles.

I'm not sure what you mean. AA is only advocating a return to 4th's brevity, as far as I can tell. I honestly can't/don't believe that a 5th edition roughly the size of 4th's core would haev alienated anyone.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Hey' date=' didn't you used to (maybe still do) spend a lot of time on the superhero newsgroup?[/quote']

 

Used to. I still poke my head in every four to six months or so.

 

(Boy, are we getting off the topic, or what?)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Were the 4th edition rules sold without the backup Champions section? I didn't recall that. So it's like half the size?

Yes, it's about half the size, called the Hero System Rules! and the cover is a mishmash of genre types charging forward... when I get home I'll snap a shot of the cover for ya.

[Chuckg]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

To be honest' date=' I never flipped through Sidekick. Does it contain complete, concise rules without hundreds of pages of examples?[/quote']

 

Well, my own opinion is that I can always *not* read something that *is* there. The reverse is far more difficult.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Yes except it lacks just enough to be incomplete' date=' such as Damage Reduction (VPP? - can't recall). What it lacks are things that aren't absolutely essential, but still rather widely used.[/quote']

Anything with a STOP is not in Sidekick. I'd have to check but I think all the ! Sign powers/items were removed as well. No frameworks of any kind that I can recall.

 

Sidekick is an excellent beginers book, and even a simple reference for basic rules due to being to brief.

 

And the biggest reason it is so brief is the lack of examples that exist in 5ER (and FRED) - which I think makes the book a good resource for an all-in-one. You've got rules and how-to suggestions in one big book so anywith needed some examples has no need to go anywhere else. I like it for that reason at least.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

I'm not sure what you mean. AA is only advocating a return to 4th's brevity' date=' as far as I can tell.[/quote']

 

Every edition of Hero System gets bigger and bigger. AustinAndrews pointed out that this makes it the object of ridicule outside of its current hardcore fanbase. I replied that yes, it does, but that's okay -- if one wants Hero System to go the way of Star Fleet Battles.

 

I guess some history is in order. Briefly, Star Fleet Battles was a tactical wargame created in the late 1970s, based loosely on the original Star Trek. Initially, it was a fun game with enough complexity to make repeated gameplay worthwhile. However, Task Force Games published rulebook after rulebook, until by the mid 1980s it was not uncommon for a Star Fleet Battles player to arrive at the game carrying a stack of rulebooks up to her chin.

 

By this time, there were so many rules, the sheer volume of the game became a detriment to playing it. Existing players trickled away, and new players stayed away in droves. Star Fleets Battles died, essentially.

 

A few years ago, a company called Amarillo Design Bureau took over the license for SFB. I do not know what has happened with it since then, but I have heard that they intend to release new material for the game. I wish them luck. I enjoyed the game, back when I played it.

 

I hope that answers your question. I admit it was a pretty oblique reference. I am sorry if I was not clear.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Yes' date=' it's about half the size, called the Hero System Rules! and the cover is a mishmash of genre types charging forward... when I get home I'll snap a shot of the cover for ya.[/quote']

No need to go to any trouble at all, I just hadn't realized it or had forgotten.

[zornwil]

Re: Finally, I bought the game! Only one problem...

 

Used to. I still poke my head in every four to six months or so.

 

(Boy, are we getting off the topic, or what?)

Topic?

 

Thanks, I was just wondering, suddenly I realized I knew your name from before the boards.