It Costs Too Much!

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

In most games LS: Immortal (or any age LS) is merely a reasoning to create a character that is already Old.

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

In most games LS: Immortal (or any age LS) is merely a reasoning to create a character that is already Old.

 

I can see that as well--I just think that if you pay for something, it should be useful to some degree. And LS vs Aging doesn't even come close to helping a player--it may as well just be free with concept.

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I can see that as well--I just think that if you pay for something' date=' it should be useful to some degree. And LS vs Aging doesn't even come close to helping a player--it may as well just be free with concept.[/quote']

I'm sure in some games that would be more than enough. Making it a Power and then leaving in the GMs hands to use or not use that power keeps the options open.

 

And "useful" varies from player to player. I often build constructs or have skills that are blatantly "not useful" to the game but certainly make th character more of a person and less of a charactersheet.

[Bloodstone]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Life Support: Immortality also protects you from NND's that are based on accelerated ageing. And there are plenty of stories involving dimensions where time passes faster then on Earth: "What do you mean I've only been gone 30 seconds? I was on Battleworld for 6 months! Just look at my beard!"

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Life Support: Immortality also protects you from NND's that are based on accelerated ageing.

 

Can't you almost feel the munchkin buying LS: blah, only versus NND attacks?

 

I guess I'm basing my estimation of the NND defense value based on the number of NND atatcks. At most, it seems to be worth a point for whatever form of reduced aging you want.

 

I dont mind players buying skills they know won't be used very much, but as a power, LS: aging sort of pushes the limits--its seems close to making the player pay for a special effect, or to have a certain background that really doesn't do much for them.

 

Now, in a campaign featuring realms that only mortals/immortals can enter, or lots of weapons specifically designed to hurt either group, I can se some need ot vary the types of immortality. So maybe this quibble isn't about the LS power in 5ER, but maybe a different way to charge and handle it in a superheropic campaign. Either way, it's not gamebreaking if a player decides to use points on somethign that will never come into play.

[zornwil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

I allow total LS for 30 points, I figure it's worth it.

[Vorsch]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

One straight up power i think is overpriced is telekinesis.

 

15pts for 10 str.

 

As most people know it can be built straight from str, str usable at range, no fig.

 

And in most cases dosent even do what tk does in practically all comics that is be indirect and invisible.

 

To build clasic tk is hideously expencive.

 

I prefer tk 1pt per pt indirect,invisible (all but mental ) cannout be used for strikes, ie you can lift/throw stuff but if you want to break some thing then put in a mp with second slot of eb, or as a +1/2 advantage.

 

better simulates most forms of Tk seen in the comics, which despite the pictures of wavy lines and such are invisible.

 

tractor beam types would be non indirect.

 

I also hearitly agree with life support and damage shield being overcosted.

 

i appreciate my basic form of Tk will seem overly effective to some people, but tk is classicaly a mental power that works on the phyical world so its not such a stretch.

[ghost-angel]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

TK has indirect properties. 5ER pg 229.

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

i appreciate my basic form of Tk will seem overly effective to some people, but tk is classicaly a mental power that works on the phyical world so its not such a stretch.

 

So, from what I'm reading, your TK would be fully invisible, at least the 1/2 indirect option,and for a 1/2 advantage, costing roughly 7 points fer 5 Strength, it can do full damage as well without having to grab an object and smack someone with it. .

 

Ok, why would anyone buy energy blasts at this point. Just buy your TK with the advantage of doing damage, then limit it so it can't grab or hold anything more than a second, or at all; (at least a 1/2 or 3/4 limit on TK)--you know get a power at the same cost or slightly cheaper than an EB, but invisible and indirect for free.

 

Ranged strength isn't a good comparison to use as to TK being overpriced because the potential uses of strength at range are worth far more than most other non ranged atatcks made ranged. TK costs a lot as is because its darn useful!

 

Take a drain, make it ranged. you still just can drain with it. Or a transform--its just helped out that you dont have to get up close and personal. But the uses of strength at range are incredibly varied. Move objects, disarm, grab, strike or restrain targets, manipualte items, even use a physical skill with fine manipulation.

 

You are on target about a potential fix--if it costs too much to get the TK that does the damage you want, the good old multipower is your friend. One slot of TK, non damaging type, another slot a physical EB based on TK. (The difference in overall DC's being the TK punch is so much more focused than the normal TK overall effect, then whatever funky TK fx powers you want. You may ot have the same strength as the team brick, but thats not a bad thing at all, especially in terms of game balance.

[Vorsch]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

good pt about the Eb seeming worthless

 

will consider..

 

on the other hand i have no objection to the team tk being as strong as the team brick, just seams that they shoud have the same chance at it for the same pts

[Kelcyron]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

It also specifically states in FReD (I don't have 5er) that you can't apply ranged to STR. In fact, it tells you that if you want to do stuff with "ranged strength" you should buy TK.

 

Kelcyron

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

TK has indirect properties. 5ER pg 229.

 

Yup. The rules questions board asked for a difference between TK and +3/4 Indirect a while back, and the answer was that Steve couldn't think of any.

 

TK is effectively STR w/ Range (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4) and No Figured (-1/2) = STR x 1.5.

[incrdbil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

good pt about the Eb seeming worthless

 

 

 

Extremely cheap TK also sort of crowds out stretching as a power. Why by stretching if you can get 1pt for 1 Str invisible, indirect TK. You can make it even cheaper by then limiting it to being direct and visible.

 

If you still want to lower the cost of TK, try a little bit less of a radical reduction, or add those 'free' advantages of invisible at no cost or increase in active points before cutting the base cost of the power by one third

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Extremely cheap TK also sort of crowds out stretching as a power.

 

Actually, I'd like to see TK reduced to a cost equal to its STR, with the elimination of all Indirect aspects. This would reduce the cost of 1DC from TK to equal STR, EB, etc., and strip away the extraneous abilities that not all TK should necessarily have.

 

If my TK is a glowing red fist emenating from my Ring of Power, and is always connected to the ring, it should not be indirect. There's no real reason, in my view, to make Indirect a base component of TK, other than to justify the 1.5:1 cost.

 

Of course, that still begs the question why anyone should ever buy an EB when they can get the same effects, plus the ability to Grab, Lift, etc., at range, by purchasing TK. I suppose one could argue that you can't spread your TK to enhance your OCV or target multiple hexes, but I don't know that this would fully balance the scales.

[Mentor]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

But what do I think if overpriced? Mmm... STR. Definatly STR. And DEX. STR and DEX. Possibly CON. Yes, CON is most certainly overpriced. EB, HA, and Drain might cost too much as well. Oh hell, all the attack powers. Especially the attack powers. And the Special Powers. Oh screw it all, just halve the cost of everything and I'll be happy.

 

But only for my characters. You all still have to pay full price.

 

Repped!

[prestidigitator]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

Yup. The rules questions board asked for a difference between TK and +3/4 Indirect a while back, and the answer was that Steve couldn't think of any.

 

TK is effectively STR w/ Range (+1/2), Indirect (+3/4) and No Figured (-1/2) = STR x 1.5.

We seem to have stumbled into another difference. You only have to pay End once per Phase for Str, even if you are using it in multiple ways (holding onto someone, hanging from something, and smacking another target for example); this is like being able to pay once for (to maintain) multiple activations of a Constant Power. If you activate (and maintain) TK multiple times, on the other hand, you must pay for every single application. Minor, perhaps, but a difference nonetheless.

[Dust Raven]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

One straight up power i think is overpriced is telekinesis.

 

15pts for 10 str.

 

As most people know it can be built straight from str, str usable at range, no fig.

 

And in most cases dosent even do what tk does in practically all comics that is be indirect and invisible.

 

To build clasic tk is hideously expencive.

 

Depends on how literal you want to be, or how narrow your view of what really hapens in the source material is. To me, TK as it represents around 90% of what we see in all the source material.

 

In the source material, you can't see "telekinesis fingers" or anything, but how many times could you not tell who was doing the moving around? Almost all the time there's come guy standing there waving his hand around (even in Star Wars) as objects fly through the air. Sure, there's no visible manifiestation of the TK at work, but the effects themselves rarely step outside Powers that cost END are visible rule. There's even sound (maybe nothing more than cinimatic, but it accompanies the use of TK a lot).

 

And as was pointed out TK has inherant indirect qualities. I'd say it has a build in +1/2 value of Indirect and needs only a +1/4 to be fully Indirect and actually be able to manipulate objects inside of a sealed room the character isn't in (but can sense into and target).

 

Of course, there are those times when you find someone who plays tricks with this TK and nobody notices him use it except for us viewers/readers, though they might notice the effects. It's times like that when you really need things like IPE, but it's also times like that when you aren't even going to need a STR higher than 10. After all, who's gonna subtlely make use of 40 STR TK?

[zornwil]

Re: It Costs Too Much!

 

We seem to have stumbled into another difference. You only have to pay End once per Phase for Str' date=' even if you are using it in multiple ways (holding onto someone, hanging from something, and smacking another target for example); this is like being able to pay once for (to maintain) multiple activations of a Constant Power. If you activate (and maintain) TK multiple times, on the other hand, you must pay for every single application. Minor, perhaps, but a difference nonetheless. [/quote']

Although TK, unlike STR, can be used in many more applications as you can instantiate a new TK as many times as you like. So I can, with TK, pick you up, pick up the truck, juggle the child, hold up a would-be falling person, and hold a wall up whereas with equal STR I might not be able to do that.