Metamorphosis

[Constantine]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

If you did that, then you would logically also be negating someone's Danger Sense also. It's a catch 22 situation when you try to affect all "Unsual Senses" with a Sense Affecting power. You end up with things that make no sense.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I did say it would depend on special effect, and I did say most, not all. I would need to determine whether the "unusual sense" worked on a case by case basis... If I knew a heroes and/or villians in my campaign had these kind of "conflicting" powers, I'd have time to think it through, and talk it out with the player in advance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Additional Note: Shapeshift still does not allow a change in mass, strictly per the rules, so you still can't immitate anything else that is substantially different as far as mass. So shapeshifting into a "credible" orange isn't possible with Shapeshift alone, but you could be 100 Kg orange. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

Then it would have to be recosted to include things like Density Increase, Shrinking & Growth - all of which are powers that adjust size and mass. It's a "trying not to step on other powers toes" issue there I'd think.

 

If you want to alter your fundamental being (species, mental class, etc...) you're looking at Transform or Multiform - those are intended for that effect.

 

If you want to merely alter your size and mass you have levels of DI, Growth and Shrinking.

 

If you want to simply imitate something else you have Shapeshift.

 

You have to choose the right tool for the right job.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Okay, just out of curiosity...

 

SFX: Character has the ability to transform into any single non-complex object for exactly one hour at which time the effect wears off and they return to normal. They have no control over the effect, hence, they are a wooden chair, brick, and so forth. They have no memory or conciousness during that time. They can be used exactly as that object. No matter what kind of analysis or tests are conducted on them during that time, the results show that it is that object with all of its exact properties.

 

How would this be built (strictly by the rules, no GM overrides whatsoever)?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Okay, just out of curiosity...

 

SFX: Character has the ability to transform into any single non-complex object for exactly one hour at which time the effect wears off and they return to normal. They have no control over the effect, hence, they are a wooden chair, brick, and so forth. They have no memory or conciousness during that time. They can be used exactly as that object. No matter what kind of analysis or tests are conducted on them during that time, the results show that it is that object with all of its exact properties.

 

How would this be built (strictly by the rules, no GM overrides whatsoever)?

 

- Christopher Mullins

Honestly? and this is not a cop out, but based on the description:

 

Major Transform: Body & Mind: Object W/ No Memory/Awareness; Charges lasting 1 Hour each; Expanded Class (Any non-complex object); Uncontrolled: Character can use power normally but has no control over effect.

[set number of Dice to how quickly you want to change and Charges to how often you want to perform the trick)

 

You are fundamentally altering the character into a standard object, that has no powers or even a mind. It is a Brick (or chair...)

 

From a Mechanics point of view it has merely BODY and DEF like any Standard Object in the rule book, so you're taking a character sheet with all sorts of stuff (Char, Powers, Skills, Talents, Perks, Equipment, Disads, etc..) and reducing it to: BODY and DEF (how much it can take before it breaks and how hard it is). Sounds like exactly what Transform is for.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Honestly? and this is not a cop out, but based on the description:

 

Major Transform: Body & Mind: Object W/ No Memory/Awareness; Charges lasting 1 Hour each; Expanded Class (Any non-complex object); Uncontrolled: Character can use power normally but has no control over effect.

[set number of Dice to how quickly you want to change and Charges to how often you want to perform the trick)

 

You are fundamentally altering the character into a standard object, that has no powers or even a mind. It is a Brick (or chair...)

 

From a Mechanics point of view it has merely BODY and DEF like any Standard Object in the rule book, so you're taking a character sheet with all sorts of stuff (Char, Powers, Skills, Talents, Perks, Equipment, Disads, etc..) and reducing it to: BODY and DEF (how much it can take before it breaks and how hard it is). Sounds like exactly what Transform is for.

I would agree, except the rules specifically forbid this use of Transform.

 

Transform is restricted to affecting another character and may not be used on one's own person.

 

I've had this concept for a couple of years now.

It's not unbalancing, and it's pretty much a staple of Superhero, Sci-Fi, and Fantasy in one form or another, but with the current system, it's either impossible or impractical to build.

 

And the reason for wanting it to be book legal, is that such a SFX should easily be able to be taken from one GM to another and pass muster, as far as rules are concerned (barring Campaign/Genre/Setting restictions).

 

But that's just me. (8^D)

 

Addendum: I would have used Uncontrolled myself since I would have based it on Endurance instead of charges.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

heh. Transform gets so crippled by "potential abuse" and stigma more than anything.

 

How about:

Multiform: Brick, Chair, Crowbar; Character has no memory of Alternate Form; Charges 1 Hour; Uncontrolled - character has no choice of form changed into.

 

Build the new characters to represent the brick, chair or crowbar as best as possible (selling back all the stats to 0 or 1 depending and adding Armor and BODY and appropriately. NO handwave but it looks mighty weird. Probably cheaper too.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Okay, just out of curiosity...

 

SFX: Character has the ability to transform into any single non-complex object for exactly one hour at which time the effect wears off and they return to normal. They have no control over the effect, hence, they are a wooden chair, brick, and so forth. They have no memory or conciousness during that time. They can be used exactly as that object. No matter what kind of analysis or tests are conducted on them during that time, the results show that it is that object with all of its exact properties.

 

How would this be built (strictly by the rules, no GM overrides whatsoever)?

I don't normally do this, but I would actually suggest Extra-Dimensional Movement for this. The character moves forward in time. The SFX include an object left behind during the period of absence, and a pretty hefty Side Effect (/Other Limitation) that can cause the character to be damaged by anthing done to the chair. Trust me, I really don't normally suggest EDM very often. But this seems pretty clear-cut.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I don't normally do this' date=' but I would actually suggest Extra-Dimensional Movement for this. The character moves forward in time. The SFX include an object left behind during the period of absence, and a pretty hefty Side Effect (/Other Limitation) that can cause the character to be damaged by anthing done to the chair. Trust me, I really don't normally suggest EDM very often. But this seems pretty clear-cut.[/quote']

Heh, I like that idea. very cool. I'd rep you but I can't just yet ...

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

heh. Transform gets so crippled by "potential abuse" and stigma more than anything.

 

How about:

Multiform: Brick, Chair, Crowbar; Character has no memory of Alternate Form; Charges 1 Hour; Uncontrolled - character has no choice of form changed into.

 

Build the new characters to represent the brick, chair or crowbar as best as possible (selling back all the stats to 0 or 1 depending and adding Armor and BODY and appropriately. NO handwave but it looks mighty weird. Probably cheaper too.

Although you can technically use this (I just reread it), you'd get a few raised eyebrows from GMs since the description of the power clearly implies that Multiform was designed for Character to Character instead of Character to Object.

 

But putting that aside, the other problem is that since the SFX describes "any single non-complex object", and being the purist that I am (8^D), we would be talking about an infinite number of forms, but I think for the sake of game equivalence 1000 forms would do. Probably would work for the length of most campaigns. But that is still quite impractical.

 

Which leaves us with only one option left, a VPP whose SFX is Shapeshift. This would entail a complex structure that contained a multitude of Suppresses to allow for the changes in Characteristics and Powers. Very messy, very expensive, and once again impractical.

 

Now if there were another power that worked similar to Transform, or we had a special option on Transform to change oneself to a lesser form, then it would be so much simpler and so much more practical. (8^D)

 

The 4th Edition Shapeshift was more practical for this SFX, but even then it still required some GM allowance.

 

It's just one of those SFX that is hard to duplicate legally with the current system. There are others, but they are not nearly the staple that this one is.

 

Just My Thoughts

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I don't normally do this' date=' but I would actually suggest Extra-Dimensional Movement for this. The character moves forward in time. The SFX include an object left behind during the period of absence, and a pretty hefty Side Effect (/Other Limitation) that can cause the character to be damaged by anthing done to the chair. Trust me, I really don't normally suggest EDM very often. But this seems pretty clear-cut.[/quote']

Well, this certainly works for your SFX, but not for mine. (8^D)

You've replaced my SFX with yours, so you really haven't given me a build for my SFX. Its a GM handwave and I see why a GM would do it. Understandable.

 

Also, please note, I didn't mention anything in my SFX about the circumstance of the object getting damaged and whether the character will be damaged when the effect wore off. Some presumptions were made there, but it doesn't matter since whether the character can be killed while in object form does not address the conundrum of the SFX.

 

But I think you've illustrated my point about this particular SFX forcing GMs to jump through hoops to simulate something that should be done fairly simply with the mechanics of the system.

 

But to make your build seem more plausible, I think Summon makes more sense when linked to the EDM. Otherwise you might be allowing free equipment for other characters in some fashion. Interesting, nonetheless.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Which leaves us with only one option left, a VPP whose SFX is Shapeshift. This would entail a complex structure that contained a multitude of Suppresses to allow for the changes in Characteristics and Powers. Very messy, very expensive, and once again impractical.

 

Now if there were another power that worked similar to Transform, or we had a special option on Transform to change oneself to a lesser form, then it would be so much simpler and so much more practical. (8^D)

 

The 4th Edition Shapeshift was more practical for this SFX, but even then it still required some GM allowance.

 

It's just one of those SFX that is hard to duplicate legally with the current system. There are others, but they are not nearly the staple that this one is.

Yeah. :sigh: See post #5 and post #11.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, this certainly works for your SFX, but not for mine. (8^D)

You've replaced my SFX with yours, so you really haven't given me a build for my SFX. Its a GM handwave and I see why a GM would do it. Understandable.

I think my build works fine for the SFX you mentioned (minus my assumptions, I suppose, but we could certainly change those--as below...).

 

Also, please note, I didn't mention anything in my SFX about the circumstance of the object getting damaged and whether the character will be damaged when the effect wore off. Some presumptions were made there, but it doesn't matter since whether the character can be killed while in object form does not address the conundrum of the SFX.

True. We could replace it with a somewhat less severe Limitation of the character winding up wherever the object is moved, or whatever. Or none at all if you like. Probably the kind of effects that will have to be fleshed out before we actually build (or use) the power anyway.

 

But I think you've illustrated my point about this particular SFX forcing GMs to jump through hoops to simulate something that should be done fairly simply with the mechanics of the system.

A simple use of EDM to move into the future is complex? I understand not.

 

But to make your build seem more plausible, I think Summon makes more sense when linked to the EDM. Otherwise you might be allowing free equipment for other characters in some fashion. Interesting, nonetheless.

Sure. Whatever. Add a 1 point Summon if it seems appropriate. If it really is going to include highly functional items I suppose we could justify more. Maybe even a Transform if you want to view it as, "adding some minor Powers to other characters." In many genres and power levels I probably wouldn't bother if it is a mundane item, though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I'm also of the opinion that the Game dicates the System more than the other way around. If it's important enough for a character to change into an Object (not just a bucket of water with a face... but An Object) then certain handwaving is always going to go on since the fundamental premise of most Games and Systems is that the character will always stay a Character in some form. - turning into a Brick (an actual Brick) sort of short circuits that concept a bit.

 

That and I don't believe in Total Universal Portability for a Game. There will always be aspects of a Game World that are unique to that GM & Set of Players that may never translate across. So I usually don't worry much about that kind of thing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Oh, and I really hope we aren't talking Wonder Twins type objects!

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yeah. :sigh: See post #5 and post #11.

I think a special Option to Transform would be cleaner, but your idea would also work too.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think my build works fine for the SFX you mentioned...

Please remember that I specifically wanted a strictly book legal build and the reason behind it, for ease of transference from one GM to another.

 

So this build works great for you, do you think I could take my "Shapeshifting" SFX defined as Extra-Dimensional Movement to someone like Dust Raven and have him say, "Of course, it makes perfect sense to build it that way!" (8^D)

 

So although it might be an odd, but technically legal, way to build this, it won't pass muster with many, if not most, GMs.

 

Note: I realize I put some pretty hefty criteria for the build, but if it were easy, then we wouldn't have this thread. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think a special Option to Transform would be cleaner' date=' but your idea would also work too.[/quote']

Could be. It would be nice to have something along those lines, though. Call it a brand new Power for all I care.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Please remember that I specifically wanted a strictly book legal build and the reason behind it, for ease of transference from one GM to another.

 

So this build works great for you, do you think I could take my "Shapeshifting" SFX defined as Extra-Dimensional Movement to someone like Dust Raven and have him say, "Of course, it makes perfect sense to build it that way!" (8^D)

 

So although it might be an odd, but technically legal, way to build this, it won't pass muster with many, if not most, GMs.

Hmm. Don't know if DR would like it, but the mechanical effects of the power you described seem to be that the character ceases to have an active role in the setting until some time in the future. Minus some drawbacks or interactions that could pull the character out prematurely it sounds like (s)he moves from point A in time to point B (where B is in the future relative to A).

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Oh' date=' and I really [i']hope[/i] we aren't talking Wonder Twins type objects!

Good lord no! Although that might classify under the same condundrum.

 

I was thinking more in the Fanstasy Genre.

 

Example: (Although this might actually be built better another way)

In Dragonslayer where the Wizard needs to have the apprentice carry him to certain location and perform a ritual to restore him to his former self. Yes, he died and was resurrected, but the concept is that the character changed form and couldn't do anything until something specific happened to restore them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hmm. Don't know if DR would like it' date=' but the [i']mechanical[/i] effects of the power you described seem to be that the character ceases to have an active role in the setting until some time in the future. Minus some drawbacks or interactions that could pull the character out prematurely it sounds like (s)he moves from point A in time to point B (where B is in the future relative to A).

An interesting take none the less. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Could be. It would be nice to have something along those lines' date=' though. Call it a brand new Power for all I care. [/quote']

I tried that once, nobody liked it... (8^D)

 

Remember the Protean Power... Noooooooo!!! < Bad Chris... Bad Chris... >

 

- Christopher Mullins

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Could be. It would be nice to have something along those lines' date=' though. Call it a brand new Power for all I care. [/quote']

 

We could call it Shape Shift . . . oh, wait a minute, that name is already being used by Illusionary Form.

 

 

 

KA.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

We could call it Shape Shift . . . oh, wait a minute, that name is already being used by Illusionary Form.

 

 

 

KA.

Hey Kent!!

 

How's that website of yours doing?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I tried that once, nobody liked it... (8^D)

 

Remember the Protean Power... Noooooooo!!! < Bad Chris... Bad Chris... >

I'll have to go look it up again. It's been a while. I wonder how different it would strike me today.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

We could call it Shape Shift . . . oh, wait a minute, that name is already being used by Illusionary Form.