Metamorphosis

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hello again.

 

I just wanted to say that I think the problem with the current way of doing it is that it is a can of worms. Keep the goat away from it

 

I say this because Hero simplifies senses to an enormous degree....most games do, but in most games it dosn't matter.

 

Take sight. It is able to tell shape, texture, colour, transparency, indicate if something is a liquid, gas or solid.....it can be fooled but you getting a lot of information.

 

Take Beast Boy from Teen Titans. He shapeshifts and is always bright green. In my book that ability should be worth very little in itself, as it has very little game impact - it is sfx. If he could actually look like virtually anything without it being obvious that it was him hten it would be worth a lot more.

 

The biggest problem to my mind is touch as it has a lot of components we rarely even think about. Someone already mentioned weight, the other is shape not as far as 'perceivers' go but as far as the environment 'perceived' you. Being able to fit through as small gap is useful and worth points. Modelling that with some very strange convolutions of the touch sense is confusing. The enormous number of posts on any number of past threads proves that.

[Constantine]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, as I pointed out Shapeshift already allows you to alter forms, actually change your shape - Shape Shift: Touch + Sight Group - Into a Dog actually changes you into a dog, Bam - done. The rest of your character sheet remains unaltered - if you had Eyebeams so does your Dog Form.

 

Now - what people REALLY want from Shapeshift is a cheap way to go "I'm a bird!!" and fly around like a bird - because that's what a bird actually does - flies around.

 

Here's the damage, when dealing with a game system you have to look at balance, game effects and how other things effect what you're doing and what you effect when you do stuff.

 

If you allow for a shapeshift that changes your fundamental abilities (i.e. let's you fly as a bird) you have to some how justify and quantify that into a power. Is losing your hands for wings a fair trade? How much of one? Does everyone Bird Shapeshift get exactly the same amount of Flight based on losing their Arms (seems silly since a Condor and a Sparrow fly at different speeds).

 

What you're really doing is adding a power onto your sheet when you shift into a Bird - Flight. Should that be part of the Shapeshift cost? How much flight do you get with that? Or should you buy Flight to the desired level and state "Only when Shifted as a bird" on it (a Limitation of your flight.)

 

If you want a million different People Forms (like Mystique for instance from the movies) all you're really doing is buying Any Form to your Shapeshift. She can look like anyone but never once demonstrated the ability to do more than mimic their powers (if any) at the most rudimentary of levels.

 

If you really do want to just turn into a bird - use Multiform, it's Shapeshift Into A Different Thing; Where Shapeshift is Shapeshift Into An Altered Me.

 

You will not easily be able to reconstruct DnDs Polymorph Spell here - it's complicated and HERO purposely doesn't have the DnD "Let's make a new rule to do what we want" mentality. You can do what you want within HERO, maybe not easily with 1 Power on your sheet. But you can do it.

 

I don't see the problem with Shapeshift - it does what it is supposed to do; alter a part of your form without altering the basic premise of You.

 

EDIT: What people really want is a form of Summon Other Shape and Powerset Of Self. oh wait - that's Multiform.

 

Well, this isn't what I'm looking for. I just want a simple, fairly inexpensive power, that allows characters to change their shape. I don't want to worry about what sense it effects, I don't want to have to worry about whether this is real or not. I'm perfectly fine buying other powers that I may or may not want this power to do. Since I've always thought shapeshift was a little expensive, bang for your buck wise, I've usually allowed characters to do minor things with their shape shift, but those are house rules. The rules for shape shift have been unnecessarily overly complicated....

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Since the game does have the Bestiary and such (and I am getting into Game Rule level discussion here) why not have a power that is something like.

 

Shapeshift allows you to change into another shape or shape that is equal to or less (or maybe only half of...) the active points of your character.

 

Buy it in levels like other powers/groupings

 

Level 1 - a single other form/creature

 

Level 2 - a select three forms or narrow group of related forms

 

Level 3 - large group of related forms

 

Level 4 - etc.

 

Then, when you shape shift, you just open up the Bestiary... point to a picture of a leopard and say, "I'm this!" stats and all. Having a simple rule that basic self identity and human reasoning stays, though INT capacity may be diminished in new form. Bingo... there you go.

 

Granted, this is not a "generic, stripped Shapeshift Mechanic" but then I think some powers exist outside of generic mechanics. They just don't work at that level... they exist in a unique status. Hero has plenty of these (Life Support, Damage Reduction, etc.) and they exist to fill a certain need that generic mechanical builds either can't do, or do so clumsily/klunkily that it is just bad game design.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Personally I have no problem with a shapeshift power being built as a mini VPP/Multiform mechanic *in the ruleset* as opposed to the current Shapeshift/images build.

 

I normally just use the rules out of the book, but all those other game systems out there have nuggets of wisdom too. I think that the cost of the power should give you something more than just the "form of xxx". Form of a Bord lets you fly, or Form of a Great White Shark lets you swim and deliver a nasty bite [plus that altered breathing LS ]. As long as the cost of Shapeshift is a large enough buy in I can accept certain lowpower (20-30 AP) effects coming along for free to represent the new and altered state.

 

Conversely, straight Multiform is too expensive to build a Beast Boy or Mystique, A VPP of unlimited Multiforms is too unusual for my taste and screams STOP sign at me especially if a 5 pocket folio is required to represent the current known forms the beastboy can assume. At best the character's shape is an SFX for a new set of powers.

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Call me old fashioned but I reckon if we left shapeshift where it is, with all the strangeness and possibility intact and then just had another little power, or an adder to shapeshift (or even to stretching) 'Can change shape' we'd be home. Make it 10 points and make it clear that you are not fooling anyone with that power alone: it is obvious that it is you, whatever shape you manage to assume, but it allows you to escape bonds, slither through small gaps, doesn't provide any protection or combat bonuses (although it would be a good idea to link in some extra strength only to escape grabs).

 

To me, that does it, pretty much, for the unstable morph.

 

Now for certain shape changes - man becomes dinosaur - you will probably use multiform. All the shape shifting you like is in-built and free. hell you could do that for changing to anything with a VPP/MF but for the fact that you'd get slapped silly every time you hold the game up re-designing your character on the fly.

 

I think the 'base state' of shapeshift should be that you can change into anything you like, and any limitations on that would then be reflected as limitations, thus making the power cheaper.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I just wanted to say that I think the problem with the current way of doing it is that it is a can of worms. Keep the goat away from it

 

You are such a troll Waters! You asked coz you knew it would cause a stushie (Scottish slang - ponounced stooshie - means an argument or upset).

 

Anyway. I think you're take on it hits what you need and it is partly the whole Hero thinking thing.

 

Take Beast Boy. As you say - his shape shift is special effects for a series of other powers. he wants to fight strong then he boosts his STR and the SFX could be that he looks like a large green elephant. If he wants to grab someone tightly then he uses entangle (1 use, no range, recoverable) and the SFX could be changing into a large green python.

 

The various shapes are sfx and if you were to draw the combat you would see him switch forms as he used the various powers. Flight gives you a bird, flight plus sonar gives you a bat, shrinking gives you a mouse, shrinking plus

flight gives you a humming bird or a bee.

 

I might give Beast Boy a VPP and match the active powers with an appropriate animal form. He doesn't suffer penalties or gain advantages that he isn't using. I would give beast boy a limitation of -1/4 or so because his animals were green and allow other people to have the form of their choice.

 

I like this better than multiform as it is a bit more freeform and still true to Hero principles. It also allows rapid changes of abilities and the range of animals is limited only by the players (and GMs) imaginations.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

You are such a troll Waters! You asked coz you knew it would cause a stushie (Scottish slang - ponounced stooshie - means an argument or upset).

Doc

 

 

Doc, how can you say these terrible things about me?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Call me old fashioned but I reckon if we left shapeshift where it is' date=' with all the strangeness and possibility intact and then just had another little power, or an adder to shapeshift (or even to stretching) 'Can change shape' we'd be home. Make it 10 points and make it clear that you are not fooling anyone with that power alone: it is obvious that it is you, whatever shape you manage to assume, but it allows you to escape bonds, slither through small gaps, doesn't provide any protection or combat bonuses (although it would be a good idea to link in some extra strength only to escape grabs).[/quote']

You have this. it's called Shapeshift:Touch; Any Shape. It costs 25points. Which isn't unreasonable IMO. It's on page 216 of 5ER, Shapeshift gets 2 1/2 pages in the book, it goes into considerable detail on what it allows and how it can work. I even quoted the section that states it allows for actual shape changing in a post above.

 

Now ... if we want to start arguing the Cost of Shapeshift... that's another thing and I think it may be a bit expensive for what it does.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

You are such a troll Waters! You asked coz you knew it would cause a stushie (Scottish slang - ponounced stooshie - means an argument or upset).

 

 

"... cause a stushie!"

 

 

I love it. I must use this... any time I can. Heh!

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, as I pointed out Shapeshift already allows you to alter forms, actually change your shape - Shape Shift: Touch + Sight Group - Into a Dog actually changes you into a dog, Bam - done. The rest of your character sheet remains unaltered - if you had Eyebeams so does your Dog Form.

 

Now - what people REALLY want from Shapeshift is a cheap way to go "I'm a bird!!" and fly around like a bird - because that's what a bird actually does - flies around.

 

Several people, including me, have specifically pointed out that we are NOT looking for extra powers from Shapeshift. We would just like to have a power that lets you actually change form, rather than let you pretend to change form, or fool others into thinking you changed your form.

 

Here's the damage, when dealing with a game system you have to look at balance, game effects and how other things effect what you're doing and what you effect when you do stuff.

 

If you allow for a shapeshift that changes your fundamental abilities (i.e. let's you fly as a bird) you have to some how justify and quantify that into a power. Is losing your hands for wings a fair trade? How much of one? Does everyone Bird Shapeshift get exactly the same amount of Flight based on losing their Arms (seems silly since a Condor and a Sparrow fly at different speeds).

 

What you're really doing is adding a power onto your sheet when you shift into a Bird - Flight. Should that be part of the Shapeshift cost? How much flight do you get with that? Or should you buy Flight to the desired level and state "Only when Shifted as a bird" on it (a Limitation of your flight.)

 

If you want a million different People Forms (like Mystique for instance from the movies) all you're really doing is buying Any Form to your Shapeshift. She can look like anyone but never once demonstrated the ability to do more than mimic their powers (if any) at the most rudimentary of levels.

 

What if a character already has Flight, and uses the amount of Flight that they already bought, but wants to actually become a bird in the "Eat worms and Lay Eggs" sense?

 

If you really do want to just turn into a bird - use Multiform, it's Shapeshift Into A Different Thing; Where Shapeshift is Shapeshift Into An Altered Me.

 

It is now, but it didn't used to be.

Shapeshift, in previous editions, allowed you to actually become something else.

From Champions III (c. 1984) :

Shape Shift

This power allows a character to change his outer form, but not change his Powers or other abilities.

 

Here is a Summary of the cost

Base 15 points to change form, look, and color.

+10 points to change into other living things.

+15 points to change into non-living things.

+15 point to increase/decrease mass (each level allows you to increase/reduce mass, you can buy multiple levels).

Decreasing one level gets you +2 DCV, +3 Knockback, 1/2 size, and 1/8 mass.

Increasing one level gets you -2 DCV, +1 OCV HTH, -3 Knockback, x2 size, x8 mass.

 

Which means that if you wanted a fairly wide range of things you could turn into, you could be spending:

15

+10

+15

+45 (three levels of reduce/increase)

----

85 points total.

 

Wow, players could really 'fool' the GM by buying this power instead of 15" of Flight, which costs, what 15 points?

 

In 4th Ed. you had to buy Growth and Shrinking and DI separately, which is okay since the cost was the same.

 

The point is, Shapeshift used to be "turn into many different things without getting their powers or abilities". Which is all many of us seem to be asking for.

It wasn't "fool other people into thinking you were something else".

 

You will not easily be able to reconstruct DnDs Polymorph Spell here - it's complicated and HERO purposely doesn't have the DnD "Let's make a new rule to do what we want" mentality. You can do what you want within HERO, maybe not easily with 1 Power on your sheet. But you can do it.

 

I don't think anyone is looking for that. But you bring up a good reference.

DnD used to make a distinction between Magic that actually changed things and Illusion that just made things look different.

That is exactly what we are talking about here.

Not "Can I make people think I am a frog?"

but

"Can I turn into a frog?"

And the question is definitely not

"Is there a cheap way for me to cheat the GM and get Superleap for free?" You may have encountered players that wanted to do just that, but to imply that everyone who sees this differently is trying to get away with something is insulting.

 

I don't see the problem with Shapeshift - it does what it is supposed to do; alter a part of your form without altering the basic premise of You.

 

EDIT: What people really want is a form of Summon Other Shape and Powerset Of Self. oh wait - that's Multiform.

 

Again, No!

What we want is what we had.

The ability to actually change form, without gaining any powers, but in a real sense.

 

How would you propose we buy these Multiforms, anyway?

Since we are not asking for any additional Powers or Abilities that the base character does not already possess, how much should each one cost?

 

Let's try an example:

Multiman

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

20 DEX 30

20 CON 20

15 BODY 10

15 INT 5

20 EGO 20

20 PRE 10

16 COM 3

 

4/15 PD 0

4/15 ED 0

4 SPD 10

8 REC 0

40 END 0

35 STUN 0

 

15" RUN 18

10" SWIM 8

10" LEAP 6

Characteristics Cost: 150

 

Cost Power END

33 Armor (11 PD/11 ED) 0

50 Energy Blast 10d6 5

30 Flight 15" 3

75 Multiform (275 Character Points in the most expensive form) (Instant Change, x8 Number Of Forms) 0

Powers Cost: 188

 

Cost Skill

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Climbing 13-

3 Electronics 12-

3 Stealth 13-

Skills Cost: 12

 

Total Character Cost: 350

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 150

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

Is it actually worth 75 Points just to be able to turn into another character that is exactly the same in powers and abilites but has the physical form of a frog?

 

Also, note that the build above allows for only 8 forms.

You could barely even call that a shapeshifter.

 

If you wanted to be a true shapeshifter, you would spend 100 points if you wanted to be able to turn into 256 'different' forms.

All with the exact same abilities and powers you started with.

 

KA.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

This subject again?

 

1) No one is asking to get Flight for free by Shapeshifting into a bird.

 

2) According to the rules, Shapeshift does allow you to actually change shape. If you change into a snake, you can slither between the bars of a cage, etc.

 

3) Actually changing shape can affect almost every sense there is, which is why it's strange to have this power priced by sense groups. If I change into a ball shape, that change is perceivable by Sight, Touch, Sonar, and Radar (assuming the latter two are accurate enough). And as I roll around in ball form ("Running") I sound different as well - the sound of a rolling ball is different than the sound of running feet. So to make that simple change, would I need to buy all those sense groups?

 

I think SS would have been much better to be broken down like this

A points to slightly change shape (Mystique into Senator Smith, i.e. humanoid into humanoid)

B points (more than A) to significantly change shape (e.g. Beastboy into dog, or Plasticman into chair)

C points to change voice

D points to change texture

E points to change color (Beastboy and Plasticman don't have this)

F points to change smell

+G advantage to make these changes especially "minute" that they fool sophisticated sensors (= "cellular") This could be bought separately for each component. For example, you might be able to alter your voice so well that you can fool voice scanners, but you can't change your fingerprints or DNA. In this case, you'd buy the C with the +G advantage, but you wouldn't buy the +G on the D or the A.

 

The above would give you one altered "form" (in quotes because it need not include A or . Then you buy the usual adders/advantages to increase the number of possible "forms". +H for a small group, +2H for a large group, +3H for anything, (or however you want to break it down).

 

You could even break A and B down into further categories of how radical a change in shape it is, like Human into Human, Human into creature with four limbs and a head. Human into any weird shape you want. Likewise, C, D, E, and F could be broken down into smaller categories if you want based on how great a change it is. For example it might be worth X points to change your smell into any animal-like smell, but worth Y points (more than X) to change to a chemical smell that couldn't possibly be organic at all.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think ghost-angel nailed it - with 5er, we have "clarification" that ShapeShift vs. Touch and Sight is the old, 4th ed. ShapeShift again.

 

It certainly didn't read that way to me before 5er, and I didn't get that sense from Steve's replies but it's now clear. SS vs. sight and touch actually changes you. It shifts your mass and changes your shape - you can fit through things you couldn't before (so no more Desolid - Only To Fit Through Keyholes).

 

If you want to get small or large, you still need Powers - but you did before too.

 

Damn. And I had finally gotten used to SS affecting senses only. I'm not too upset, I didn't like that approach anyway.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

If you wanted to be a true shapeshifter, you would spend 100 points if you wanted to be able to turn into 256 'different' forms.

All with the exact same abilities and powers you started with.

 

KA.

 

That's expensive, to be sure, but gets to the point.

 

Yes, if I shapeshift into a bird I expect to be able to fly. Otherwise I'm not really a bird am I?

 

Unless I pick a bird that can't actually fly... oh nevermind.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Abolish shapeshift.

 

As it stands currently, Images net you the same results.

 

 

What? Duke, you've lost your mind!

 

Well it does.

 

Shapeshift grants you absolutely no power other than to look, feel, sound, smell, or taste different. If you want more STR, you need to buy, linked or limited with your Shapeshift. More DEX? More reach? More speed? More-- or less-- or anything at all?

 

Same thing. Buy it, and tie it to your ShapeShift. If you want it an integral part of your new shape, it's a MultiForm.

 

The power description given in 5E has made Shape Shift a complete redundancy. While Desolid can be used to simulate ten new ideas, 5E Shape Shift is simply a re-build of Images.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Abolish shapeshift.

 

As it stands currently, Images net you the same results.

 

 

What? Duke, you've lost your mind!

 

Well it does.

 

Shapeshift grants you absolutely no power other than to look, feel, sound, smell, or taste different. If you want more STR, you need to buy, linked or limited with your Shapeshift. More DEX? More reach? More speed? More-- or less-- or anything at all?

 

Same thing. Buy it, and tie it to your ShapeShift. If you want it an integral part of your new shape, it's a MultiForm.

 

The power description given in 5E has made Shape Shift a complete redundancy. While Desolid can be used to simulate ten new ideas, 5E Shape Shift is simply a re-build of Images.

hmmm... no. Images fakes it, Shapeshift changes it.

 

You want to turn into a Bird Shaped Human - Shapeshift

You want to fool people into thinking your a bird - Images

You want to Turn Into A Bird - Multiform or Transform.

 

The first alters your physical body (SS is a BodyAffecting Standard Power)

The second alters your appearance (Images is a Sense Affecting Power)

The last two alter you at the fundamental level of being turning you INTO an object - complete with all appropriate game mechanic powers.

 

I don't see how it could be much simpler than that. Read 5ERs Shapeshift rules, it's not the same as FREDs. FRED was fuundamentally broken if taken at face value. 5ER readdresses Shapeshift and how it's supposed to work within the game.

 

SS: Touch changes your physical shape - all senses used to determine somethings physical shape are affected (Sonar, Radar, Touch and yes even Sight - To Determine Objects Shape). Want to look like what you just changed into complete with coloration and features? That's SS: Sight.

 

Do I like the costing structure? meh, it's expensive. I'll give it that. But it's also powerful.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

hmmm... no. Images fakes it, Shapeshift changes it.

 

You want to turn into a Bird Shaped Human - Shapeshift

You want to fool people into thinking your a bird - Images

You want to Turn Into A Bird - Multiform or Transform.

 

We're playing semantics.

 

Tell me the difference in game terms

 

(You're a good sport, G-A; methinks this is what Sean was after anyway )

 

SS vs a sense---

 

so I am altering the way I am percieved.

 

I shape-shift (vs touch) into a chair.

 

I look, smell, taste, and sound like my sweaty old human self. But if touched, I feel like a chair.

 

I have not become a chair. If I only had a 1 STR, I could not really serve as a chair.

 

I SS (vs hearing) into a car. Now I sound like a car. I feel, look, etc, like a person. Okay, flatly, this is pretty damned useless unless I'm trying to sneak up on a traffic jam. With blind drivers. Like around here at lunch time.

 

I Wonder-twin myself into a pile of water (touch). I'm still walking around, looking and sounding like a person (which is hard to really fathom). I even taste and smell like a person, because I didn't buy the right Ima--- Shape Shift.

 

 

For me, it's like the difference between a Laser, and electricity bolt, and a Poodle cannon (thanks, Doc, for suggesting I look into the Tick!). Call it what you want, it's still Energy Blast.

 

I became a bird, I look/smell/taste/feel/sound like a bird---

 

what's the game difference?

 

It's all Images.

 

At least now.

 

 

Read 5ERs Shapeshift rules, it's not the same as FREDs.

 

All debate, discussion, banter, and friendly poking aside, I'd love to. I'd really, really love to.

 

But having just shelled out over fifty bucks for FRED less than a year ago, only to discover that I have to do the very same thing because FRED was so indescribably broken that it needed an ever bigger book to fix it---

 

well, that just ain't happening anytime soon. I'm not grumbling price or anything like that, but I'm a cripple with a wife and child and house note. Dipping into my shockingly limited funds so soon because I made the 'mistake' of buying something that was defective out of the box---

 

well, it's not an option. And odds are it won't be any time in the next three or four years.

 

Now if there is anything from re-FRED that you think you can share without violating copyrights, laws, and good taste, then I will be more than happy to consider any improvements.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

We're playing semantics.

 

Tell me the difference in game terms

 

(You're a good sport, G-A; methinks this is what Sean was after anyway )

Possibly ... he does like debating.

 

SS vs a sense---

 

so I am altering the way I am percieved.

 

I shape-shift (vs touch) into a chair.

 

I look, smell, taste, and sound like my sweaty old human self. But if touched, I feel like a chair.

 

I have not become a chair. If I only had a 1 STR, I could not really serve as a chair.

 

I SS (vs hearing) into a car. Now I sound like a car. I feel, look, etc, like a person. Okay, flatly, this is pretty damned useless unless I'm trying to sneak up on a traffic jam. With blind drivers. Like around here at lunch time.

 

I Wonder-twin myself into a pile of water (touch). I'm still walking around, looking and sounding like a person (which is hard to really fathom). I even taste and smell like a person, because I didn't buy the right Ima--- Shape Shift.

Ok, it's not really working "vs" a sense, it's simply using the Sense as the test, as it were. At least how I'm seeing it currently.

 

SS:Touch:Chair - you become a chair's shape, your "skin" feels like upholstery (whatever kind you choose, or wood or whatever) but you can talk, smell, you might even have a face on the chair and be able to eat. People can sit in you. You'r coloration is whatever it was before SSing, wearing blue jeans and a tank top? Well, the chair is too, after a fashion.

 

SS does not "Turn you into the object" It turns you into "Yourself shaped like the object." Images doesn't change your physical form, it just disappears you and places the picture of a chair there - people can also see through it because nothing has physically changed in the area. SS physically changes the object into something else.

 

It's just using "Senses" as the test to best determine what your changing. You want to have the Ultimate Voice Impersonator? Well, you're Shapeshifting your voice into any other voice you've heard; what's the base sense being affected? Hearing Group, so we make a Shapeshift to affect the Hearing Group - SS:Hearing. You're voice actually changes.

 

Images implies that your voice doesn't actually change, you can just make other people think it's changed. There's still a chance someone can pick up that it's you immitating someone else.

 

 

For me' date=' it's like the difference between a Laser, and electricity bolt, and a Poodle cannon (thanks, Doc, for suggesting I look into the Tick!). Call it what you want, it's still Energy Blast.[/quote']

Or is it a Killing Attack? Same idea - two different outcomes. Same with SS and Images.

 

I became a bird, I look/smell/taste/feel/sound like a bird---

 

what's the game difference?

 

It's all Images.

 

At least now.

Did you become A Bird, or did you become "You in a Bird Form" - the different is more than semantic. Are you a non-sentient bird or are you yourself mentally still? PErhaps you still have some of your powers as well... SS allows for those possibilities.

 

 

All debate, discussion, banter, and friendly poking aside, I'd love to. I'd really, really love to.

 

But having just shelled out over fifty bucks for FRED less than a year ago, only to discover that I have to do the very same thing because FRED was so indescribably broken that it needed an ever bigger book to fix it---

 

well, that just ain't happening anytime soon. I'm not grumbling price or anything like that, but I'm a cripple with a wife and child and house note. Dipping into my shockingly limited funds so soon because I made the 'mistake' of buying something that was defective out of the box---

 

well, it's not an option. And odds are it won't be any time in the next three or four years.

 

Now if there is anything from re-FRED that you think you can share without violating copyrights, laws, and good taste, then I will be more than happy to consider any improvements.

I did quote a snippet of Shapeshift in a previous post to this thread - the part specifically stating you physically alter your shape, not appear to alter it but actually alter it.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

... if an object changes from a box to an orange what's the difference between how you look at it and what it is? ...

Simple, If I eat it, will I get the same nutrients as an Orange? (8^D)

 

The answer to the last will determine the answer to the former.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TaxiMan]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Also, the difference between Images and SS is, SS doesn't get a PER roll to see what's underneath. That's because underneath is exactly what you see.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Simple, If I eat it, will I get the same nutrients as an Orange? (8^D)

 

The answer to the last will determine the answer to the former.

 

- Christopher Mullins

If it has the Taste Group and Cellular, possibly - that's up to GM Dramatic sense at that point. And you're essnetially eating an Orange Shaped/Flavored Person as opposed to an Orange (which would be achieved with Transform).

 

heh, "Shapeshift, Soylent Green is Shapeshift!!"

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I just wanted to say that I don't own 5ER, and that if this has been changed in the current rules to allow for the previous version of Shapeshift then I am okay with it.

 

KA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

It basically has ... wording aside Shapeshift actually changes the following:

Sight - How you appear

Touch - Your shape/weight distribution; physical body

Hearing - how you sound

Smell/Taste - how you smell/taste

Radar - your "signature" (5ER has a note that this can be used to alter your "power signature") or possibly as a form of radio encryption by hiding the band.

Mental - changes your "Mental Signature" so to speak, changes how your mind 'looks'

 

so your physically changing a part of yourself to reflect another thing - how you decide what you'r changing is by what sense you're working "against."

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hmmm....

 

So it would seem that Shapeshift is completely useless against any truely "Unsual Sense", since the Shapeshift would have to built against it specifically, which would be higly unlikely.

 

Additional Note: Shapeshift still does not allow a change in mass, strictly per the rules, so you still can't immitate anything else that is substantially different as far as mass. So shapeshifting into a "credible" orange isn't possible with Shapeshift alone, but you could be 100 Kg orange. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Constantine]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hmmm....

 

So it would seem that Shapeshift is completely useless against any truely "Unsual Sense", since the Shapeshift would have to built against it specifically, which would be higly unlikely.

 

 

I think it would depend on the special effects of the detect and the shapeshift. Somebody that bought shape shift vs. every other sense (seems very strange to write that...), I'd be inclined to give them most of the special detects, too.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think it would depend on the special effects of the detect and the shapeshift. Somebody that bought shape shift vs. every other sense (seems very strange to write that...)' date=' I'd be inclined to give them most of the special detects, too.[/quote']

If you did that, then you would logically also be negating someone's Danger Sense also. It's a catch 22 situation when you try to affect all "Unsual Senses" with a Sense Affecting power. You end up with things that make no sense.

 

- Christopher Mullins