Metamorphosis

[Sean Waters]

Just a bit of a straw poll (without, even, the 'poll' bit), given that 'The Ultimate Metamorph' (TUM) is being produced even as we speak: are you keen on shapeshift being a power that (basically) perfectly fools senses, or should it be some sort of body effecting power that (actually) does change your shape.

 

You may surmise, from my phrasing of the question, which way my sympathies lie

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I prefer the actual changing of shape...

 

the other way is interesting but the special situations where it would be used should really just have remained the Images power.

 

Hawksmoor

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I like Shapeshift as it stands. In actual play there is little difference between Perfectly Fooling and Actually Changing.

 

I look at it from this angle:

Internally Shapeshift does not affect you - you're still you with different appearance/smell whatever.

Externally Shapeshift effectively changes you completely, you appear by all accounts and purposes to have morphed forms.

 

vs.

 

Multiform which changes you both Internally and Externally at the same time (in most instances, there are plenty where it doesn't - we're ignoring them for the example of Actual Metaphorphs).

 

The nice thing about the way Shapeshift works vs Senses is you can now pick and choose which part of your externally presented body is shifted.

 

Look at Mystique from the X-Men movie (referencing the larger pop culture image since I don't read comic) - her Shapeshift allowed her to alter her appearance (Sight), voice (Hearing), feel (Touch) and possibly even which phermones she gaves off (Smell/Taste). She could change each one at will and seperately from each other.

 

Having Shapeshift work vs "senses" allows for that simulation much better. You are chagning shape - you're changing the shape of the sense you bought Shapeshift for.

 

So when I look at Shapeshift as far as I'm concerned you are changing shape. After all, in the end if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... I don't see the problem.

[Zed-F]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Potato, Potahto.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think it would be more useful if given a Framework/partial-Multiform option. I'm sick of having to define VPPs and/or re-build most of every character who has the same generic shapeshifting spell, not to mention requiring special GM permission to include one Framework inside another (for spellcasters who use Multipowers or VPPs).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Potato' date=' Po[i']tah[/i]to.

 

Well, yes, but which one do you say?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Just a bit of a straw poll (without, even, the 'poll' bit), given that 'The Ultimate Metamorph' (TUM) is being produced even as we speak: are you keen on shapeshift being a power that (basically) perfectly fools senses, or should it be some sort of body effecting power that (actually) does change your shape.

 

You may surmise, from my phrasing of the question, which way my sympathies lie

 

Why Sean... whatever do you mean?

 

I prefer the "change your shape" rather than the meta-illusion power.

 

I do think you could have a "Glamour" power that worked the way 5th Ed shape shift works. How completely do you fool the senses is kinda cool... it just isn't shapeshift.

 

Maybe shapeshift is so unique that it exists at a Game Rule level, rather than a Mechanic... thus it has it's own unique set of effects. Like mental powers have their own effect tables, shapeshift would do the same.

 

10 Points gets you "change body surface in color, texture, shape but remain within human parameters" and various levels of "change at cellular level to other organic creature" and "change at molecular level, but still organic" to "change at molecular level but able to take non-organic form" etc.

 

Then just like you don't have to define a horse or a wall or a ball of energy in terms of "How is it sensed?" you don't have to define your new form as anything more than "I'm a horse... I'm a wall... I'ma ball of energy" and go from there.

 

I think there is a weird mental process that happens with Hero... where people try to define everything with powers/characteristics... while not realizing that 99 percent of the game is "just there... as described" without Hero stats. With a simple caveat" shapeshift alters your form, but in no way alters your game stats like characteristics, powers, skills, etc" then you just go with "I'm a horse" and get on with the game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

My take is this.

 

I think shapeshift (as is) is a great power for a number of purposes. I really like the ability to change, for instance, your smell.

 

I think shapeshift (as is) is a poor power to model actually changing shape.

 

I think we have one power that is trying to do too much stuff. Some it does well, other bits it does badly.

 

Part of the problem is the cavalier attitude with which Hero has always treated shape i.e. it doesn't matter much and, by and large, it doesn't.

 

It matters when you are trying to fool someone into thinking you are someone or something else. It doesn't matter much if you just want to look different when you are a superhero. Hell, power activation can do that for free. If you want to look like any kind of dinosaur then, unless you are playing in a game of sentient dinosaurs, it really doesn't matter that much, but it costs an arm and a leg using the power as it is.

 

It matters when you want to be a shape that fits through a gap, but that would be cheap enough to do with 2" of teleport (sfx morphs through the intervening space -1/2)

 

So, I'm cool with the way it is, but I'd like to see actual changing of shape (NOT for disguise purposes) done as another power or as an adder (with the interesting property that it can add to zero i.e. be used on its own) in the shapeshift power, kinda like the way we can 'Instant Change' (although,obviously, transform doesn't worth on the self, so that's a no-no), and I wouldn't want it costing much. Fitting into spaces and through gaps should be a seperate (cheap) adder.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

........I think there is a weird mental process that happens with Hero... where people try to define everything with powers/characteristics... while not realizing that 99 percent of the game is "just there... as described" without Hero stats. With a simple caveat" shapeshift alters your form' date=' but in no way alters your game stats like characteristics, powers, skills, etc" then you just go with "I'm a horse" and get on with the game. [/quote']

 

Oh boy are we good at 'weird'

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Another idea that just popped into my head (not fully formed... amorphous... which is appropriate for this thread...)

 

What if shapeshift was a form of "on the fly Multiform?"

 

Now... I know this is probably what we want to avoid at all costs... but really, think about it.

 

If you are truly changing your shape... then in game terms you need to represent what that change does to those points on a page which represent our character. Logically, if our character has "changed" then shouldn't those points "change?"

 

(This is a corolary to Sean's point above... that if you are just changing your appearance, it doesn't matter in point, because your appearance isn't defined in points on a page.)

 

So... shapeshift is some kind of "adder" on powers or the character as a whole that allows those points to be moved into other powers, new powers, other characteristics, etc. I have no idea how this would be costed... but it could work.

 

 

As an aside, I'm sure the latest incarnation of Shapeshift came about from a game of Champions that erupted in an argument between the Plastic Man clone character and the Wolverine clone character. The PM clone probably changed into another person, mailbox, whatever... and the W clone "sniffed him out" and they got into an argument about whether or not PM clone still had the same scent or not. Rather than... god forbid... the GM just make a judgment call that fit the game and then tell the two players to shut up and keep playing... we are gifted with a massive, klunky, esoteric "sense effecting" build which only serves to generate as many headaches as it attempted to solve.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yeah. That's kinda what I meant by, "Framework/partial-Multiform." Currently the only mechanic we really have for changing/adding powers is Transform....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

It matters when you are trying to fool someone into thinking you are someone or something else.

At that point aren't you merely altering their perception of the outside world (i.e. you)?

[Constantine]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

To me, this is a little ridiculous. The power is shapeshift, not sense me differently. It has been, and always will be actual physical change in my games. 'Nuff said.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

To me' date=' this is a little ridiculous. The power is shapeshift, not sense me differently. It has been, and always will be actual physical change in my games. 'Nuff said.[/quote']

Let me ask you a metaphysical question ... if an object changes from a box to an orange what's the difference between how you look at it and what it is? If an object changes from soft to hard when you Touch it how would you know it's not a soft object changing your perception of it or a soft object that became hard, and could it be said they might be one in the same worded differently?

 

Let's argue Sound. By one definition Sound is merely waves emitted into a medium (such as air) from a broadcaster (such as a tree falling in a forest). By another no sound is emmitted until a Receiver (your ear) comes upon the scene to verify that those airwaves are indeed soundwaves - up until that point they are merely Airwaves.

 

Shapeshift may ineed be Schroedingers Power here.

[Zed-F]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well' date=' yes, but which one do [i']you [/i]say?

Potato, of course.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think the new Shapeshift is weird, though I've finally understood it. It should be called 'Perfect Images' IMO. Add UAA and some AOE and you have the power Images, but nothing can penetrate the image.

 

It's Images, Self-Only, No PER Roll To Detect, Limited Function (limited to sense groups).

 

The T1000 from Terminator II would have it because it can mimic policemen, not because it can grow swords out of its hands. In its silver state, it doesn't need Shapeshift at all, only an assortment of other Powers.

 

So if I have Shapeshift vs. Touch, can I change how much I feel like I weigh?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Let me ask you a metaphysical question ... if an object changes from a box to an orange what's the difference between how you look at it and what it is? If an object changes from soft to hard when you Touch it how would you know it's not a soft object changing your perception of it or a soft object that became hard, and could it be said they might be one in the same worded differently?

 

Let's argue Sound. By one definition Sound is merely waves emitted into a medium (such as air) from a broadcaster (such as a tree falling in a forest). By another no sound is emmitted until a Receiver (your ear) comes upon the scene to verify that those airwaves are indeed soundwaves - up until that point they are merely Airwaves.

 

Shapeshift may ineed be Schroedingers Power here.

 

Oh please...

 

But I'm not considering YOUR metaphyscial reality... but my own. As the shapeshifter I am changing my shape. Point... done. How that effects you is out of my control. In fact it is the control of our shared metaphyscial god... the GM.

 

In game terms, Reason from effect can be taken too far. To create some of the more abstract super effects... ok, extrapolate it from existing powers. (Ex: Magenetics is just SFX of telekinesis.) But for a common, basic power like shape shift... common to many genres... with a nomenclature that indicates that, oh... you shift your shape... then to abstract it into the realm of perception is just simply bad game design. To have it possible to do this, as in my example of a "glamour" above... great... but that is not shapeshift.

 

To approach it from your Schroedinger perspective, then you call into doubt everything described and attempted to exist in the shared imaginary space that is "the game." Pursuing your line of thought would require the GM to describe everything in terms of "... as you perceive it." Instead of "In front of you is a brick wall..." the GM must describe it as "In your state of perception there appears to be an object that to what you assume to be sight is an image your mind relates to that of a "brick wall" ... a brick wall being a concept that may or may not exist but that you believe it does... and when you reach out to touch it, perhaps your disembodied ego willing the concept of a hand and fingers into quantum existence... the sensation that you perceive... real or not... matches your metaphysical template for rough, square sharp edged bricks set with mortar..." blah... blah... blah...

 

That is the path of absurdity and madness. Heh... actually thanks for bringing that up, as it is one more argument about why the "fools the senses" approach of shape shift is a bad one. The logical extrapolation of it is utterly ridiculous.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Mostly what I'm trying to say is if you can't tell there's a difference between a Bird and a Shapeshifted Bird (Perception) how do you know there is one?

 

One of the reasons I see Shapeshift uses the Senses is not that it works against them is that your Changing That Sense - Shapeshift: Sight - your changing how you appear. That IS Shapeshifting. That's how I see it.

 

Just because you need a series of Shapeshifts for complete realism just means that it's 'broken' it just means it's divided into levels pertaining to how the game itself works.

 

Shapeshift: Touch - you change your physical body into something else, how do you test that? You Touch it. Get where I'm coming from?

 

Shapeshift DOES change you - the imperical test being using the sense you're shifting. So why not define Shapeshift from that sense to begin with?

 

What I think people don't like, and I had this arguement with a fellow player is that Shapeshift: Into A Bird doesn't give you the abilities of a Bird unless you buy them seperately with a "Linked" Limitation of some nature.

[JTesla]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

What I think people don't like' date=' and I had this arguement with a fellow player is that Shapeshift: Into A Bird doesn't give you the abilities of a Bird unless you buy them seperately with a "Linked" Limitation of some nature.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

I think that is where the true issue lies. Having Shapeshifting act as an illusion allows one to dodge the tough questions, and points to Multiform if a better solution is needed. Want the form of a bird? Shapeshift gets you there. Want an ability or even the weakness of a bird? Then you have to do something else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Agreed.

 

I think that is where the true issue lies. Having Shapeshifting act as an illusion allows one to dodge the tough questions, and points to Multiform if a better solution is needed. Want the form of a bird? Shapeshift gets you there. Want an ability or even the weakness of a bird? Then you have to do something else.

And quite honestly - that's as it should be IMO.

 

Oh, as to the "But shapeshift doesn't actually change your shape" complaint:

Under The Touch Group -Alter his actual physical shape or mass distribution (though his total mass would not change), thus allowing him to, for example, slip out of bonds, radically alter his form, or within reason to fit through openings a human-shaped being cannot fit through (the classic meaning of "shifting shape")

You DO change form - just only versus the Senses you buy it against. 5ER goes on to say on p217 that a true Shapeshift should be bought versus Sight & Touch at the least. Allowing one to change into a dog and talk to people still.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

AS much as I hate to bring up multiform, I think that's the way to go.

 

That way you can actually take the form [of whatever you choose to buy] and gain the abilities/limitations of said form.

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

If you make the sound of a tree falling and there is no one there to hear you, did you really Shape Shift?

 

I am part of the "Think the current way is fine for an 'illusion', but I would like there to be a real Shape Shift." group.

 

There is just something that bothers me about the current rules.

 

Imagine if there were a rule that all Superstrength had to actually be a form of No-range, must-touch-item, Telekinesis?

 

Player : "I want to be able to lift 100 tons."

GM : "No problem, just buy the TK STR, and you can do it."

 

Player : "No, I mean I want my character to be able to do that with his own muscles.

Not with his mind.

I don't mind paying the exact same points for it.

I don't even mind paying more points for it.

I just want to do it with my own physical strength, not some form of TK."

 

GM : "Well. You can buy the TK STR, and add a few points of COM, saying that you look really muscular."

 

Player : "But . . ."

 

GM : "Or you could buy a Multiform, where you change into a giant gorilla that is really strong from Growth!"

 

Player : "But, I . . ."

 

GM : "Or you could buy Flight, Useable as Attack, and use that power to make things lift up in the air!"

 

Player : "Arrrrrgh! Never mind! I'll just play a wolverine clone again!"

 

What difference does it make?

 

Because if I want to play an actual ShapeShifting character, as opposed to some kind of Illusionist, I want to actually turn into things.

And if the things I want to turn into don't have any actual powers that I don't already possess, I should not have to buy a Multiform to do it.

I do not think that ShapeShift should give you something for nothing.

But I do think there should be a power like ShapeShift where you actually turn into things instead of just fooling other people into thinking you turned into something.

 

Anything else just feels like being a Furry.

 

Here is an example:

A goat can eat a tin can.

A human, if they were careful, and really wanted to, could probably eat a tin can too.

But a human wouldn't.

There is no in-game advantage to eating a tin can, as far as I know.

But if a ShapeShifting character actually turned into a goat, they could eat one.

If I was playing a character that was just good at pretending to be a goat, even if that pretense could fool everyone else, I still would not eat a tin can.

Because people don't do that, even if they have a convincing goat-suit on.

 

Another example:

Let's say that for some unknown reason, the future of the world depended on someone having 'relations' with a female dog.

(I don't know why! Maybe it is Assistant Editor Month at Marvel and there is some lonely female dog that wants puppies and she manages to get ahold of The Ultimate Nullifier!)

If you had a shapeshifting character that could actually become a dog, things could work out.

If you had a character that was just good at pretending to be a dog, it would seem like beastiality.

 

I know that it may seem like silly semantics, but I just wish there was an actual 'turn into things' power in the game.

And I don't mean Multiform!

If someone wants to play a Shapeshifter, they should not have to buy 3000 different forms just to be able to actually turn into:

Ann the Receptionist

Bob the Plumber

Charlie the Carpenter

Donna the Dishwasher

Ellen the Electrician

etc.

etc.

etc.

if they already possess the proper skills and powers to do what those people do!

 

 

I understand that you should not get POWERS for free, but as it stands you may as well just cast Darkness to all senses and pretend to yourself that you turned into something else.

 

KA.

[JTesla]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Personally I would let the player eat a tin can as a goat, but when they went back to normal they would be in a world of hurt. This is something that can be done using both methods.

 

The problem when you go too far down this road is determining what it means to Shapeshift. A player that shape shifts into a bird wants to fly, but doesn’t want to be killed with a single shot from a BB gun.

 

It gets too messy. When I Shapeshift I want to look and feel like the object, say a chair, but not be dismembered by a single hatch blow. When I Shapeshift into a dog, I don’t want a whole character sheet that includes powers granting me the ability to speak, I want to look, feel, and smell like a dog – but not actually be one.

[Pogo]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Let me ask you a metaphysical question ... if an object changes from a box to an orange what's the difference between how you look at it and what it is? If an object changes from soft to hard when you Touch it how would you know it's not a soft object changing your perception of it or a soft object that became hard, and could it be said they might be one in the same worded differently?

 

Let's argue Sound. By one definition Sound is merely waves emitted into a medium (such as air) from a broadcaster (such as a tree falling in a forest). By another no sound is emmitted until a Receiver (your ear) comes upon the scene to verify that those airwaves are indeed soundwaves - up until that point they are merely Airwaves.

 

Shapeshift may ineed be Schroedingers Power here.

 

The orange will roll down a sloping driveway. The box won't if the slope isn't great enough for sliding. If I just appear to have changed into a snake, it will be hard for me to crawl through a narrow pipe. If I change into a wolf and walk through the doorway should the IR beam at 4 feet up be broken? If shapechange is an illusion, I'd say yes, though this last example is less clear-cut.

 

Now then, I want characters with shapeshift to be able to roll (or not roll) down hills, slide through drainpipes, and fit between IR beams, so for me shapeshift is a real change. That having been said, I also think the shapeshift power may need tweaking, but I haven't thought about it enough to offer any useful suggestions (well, that and my books are 700 miles away right now:( ).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, as I pointed out Shapeshift already allows you to alter forms, actually change your shape - Shape Shift: Touch + Sight Group - Into a Dog actually changes you into a dog, Bam - done. The rest of your character sheet remains unaltered - if you had Eyebeams so does your Dog Form.

 

Now - what people REALLY want from Shapeshift is a cheap way to go "I'm a bird!!" and fly around like a bird - because that's what a bird actually does - flies around.

 

Here's the damage, when dealing with a game system you have to look at balance, game effects and how other things effect what you're doing and what you effect when you do stuff.

 

If you allow for a shapeshift that changes your fundamental abilities (i.e. let's you fly as a bird) you have to some how justify and quantify that into a power. Is losing your hands for wings a fair trade? How much of one? Does everyone Bird Shapeshift get exactly the same amount of Flight based on losing their Arms (seems silly since a Condor and a Sparrow fly at different speeds).

 

What you're really doing is adding a power onto your sheet when you shift into a Bird - Flight. Should that be part of the Shapeshift cost? How much flight do you get with that? Or should you buy Flight to the desired level and state "Only when Shifted as a bird" on it (a Limitation of your flight.)

 

If you want a million different People Forms (like Mystique for instance from the movies) all you're really doing is buying Any Form to your Shapeshift. She can look like anyone but never once demonstrated the ability to do more than mimic their powers (if any) at the most rudimentary of levels.

 

If you really do want to just turn into a bird - use Multiform, it's Shapeshift Into A Different Thing; Where Shapeshift is Shapeshift Into An Altered Me.

 

You will not easily be able to reconstruct DnDs Polymorph Spell here - it's complicated and HERO purposely doesn't have the DnD "Let's make a new rule to do what we want" mentality. You can do what you want within HERO, maybe not easily with 1 Power on your sheet. But you can do it.

 

I don't see the problem with Shapeshift - it does what it is supposed to do; alter a part of your form without altering the basic premise of You.

 

EDIT: What people really want is a form of Summon Other Shape and Powerset Of Self. oh wait - that's Multiform.