Metamorphosis

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Just a bit of a straw poll (without, even, the 'poll' bit), given that 'The Ultimate Metamorph' (TUM) is being produced even as we speak: are you keen on shapeshift being a power that (basically) perfectly fools senses, or should it be some sort of body effecting power that (actually) does change your shape.

 

You may surmise, from my phrasing of the question, which way my sympathies lie

 

Okay, I haven't read any replies, but I'm hoping at least one other person has said this: Isn't the Power Shape Shift just the ability to perfectly fool the senses of others, and the SFX of that is changing your shape? Alternatively, the SFX could be a "perfect" hologram or a flawless disguise or acting technique. A Power that just changes your shape has no actual mechanical game effect after all.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

In short, yes and no. (8^D)

 

Gee, I didn't know that if I uttered Dust Raven's name that he would appear.

 

Maybe he's a god or something... hmmm... (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hey Kent!!

 

How's that website of yours doing?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Believe it or not, I am still working on it, bit by bit (literally).

 

I had some real-world interruptions along the way, but it will eventually see daylight.

 

Of course, the Internet may be in 3-D Holographic form by then, but I refuse to give up on it.

 

KA.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So Kent, what do think about this subject?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Good lord no! Although that might classify under the same condundrum.

 

I was thinking more in the Fanstasy Genre.

 

Example: (Although this might actually be built better another way)

In Dragonslayer where the Wizard needs to have the apprentice carry him to certain location and perform a ritual to restore him to his former self. Yes, he died and was resurrected, but the concept is that the character changed form and couldn't do anything until something specific happened to restore them.

 

- Christopher Mullins

No I call that a Limiation on Resurrection Power ... which is a handwaved Healing ...

 

....

 

all of my characters will have the following power, and only the following power:

 

EDM: Any Dimension. Any point in space in Any Dimension. Any point in Time in Any Dimension.

 

and all actions taken with this power shall be along the lines of:

"I EDM to a Dimension where Menton got hit by a 6D6 Penetrating RKA Fire Blast that appeared to originate from me, in Phase 4 of this Combat Scene."

 

I'm A Genius.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Okay' date=' I haven't read any replies, but I'm hoping at least one other person has said this: Isn't the Power Shape Shift just the ability to perfectly fool the senses of others, and the SFX of that is changing your shape? Alternatively, the SFX could be a "perfect" hologram or a flawless disguise or acting technique. A Power that just changes your shape has no actual mechanical game effect after all.[/quote']

Not in so many words ... I tried that tact and failed miserably to convey it correctly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I might be jumping in a bit late, but...

 

To approach it from your Schroedinger perspective' date=' then you call into doubt everything described and attempted to exist in the shared imaginary space that is "the game." Pursuing your line of thought would require the GM to describe everything in terms of "... as you perceive it." Instead of "In front of you is a brick wall..." the GM must describe it as "In your state of perception there appears to be an object that to what you assume to be sight is an image your mind relates to that of a "brick wall" ... a brick wall being a concept that may or may not exist but that you believe it does... and when you reach out to touch it, perhaps your disembodied ego willing the concept of a hand and fingers into quantum existence... the sensation that you perceive... real or not... matches your metaphysical template for rough, square sharp edged bricks set with mortar..." blah... blah... blah...[/quote']

 

What is the real difference between describing to your players "There is a brick wall in front of you" and "You see a brick wall in front of you"? For most people, these statement are synonamous, even though they aren't. The first states the brick wall actually exists regardless of our perception, the second implies the brick wall exists by stating your perceptions. Subtle maybe, but significant.

 

Let's assume your the GM, and the heroes have just beaten up the thugs in the lobby and have burst into the secret lab on level 27. There is no one there. However, one of the walls is a one-way illusion of a wall that blends in with the surrounding room. The villain watches from the other side. How would you describe the room and the room's walls? Certainly you wouldn't state that part of the wall is illusion. In fact, you'd try like hell to avoid the player's making that assumption. You'd avoid using phrases like "it appears..." and "the room seems..." You'd state facts, or you'd state the illusions as facts until someone uncovered a fact that condradicts what you've already told them.

 

Of course, what we're dealing with is nothing more than a matter of perception. Regardless of what the wall really is, the heroes will perceive it as a normal wall and have no reason to suspect otherwise (at least initially). Which means the state of the wall is actually irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is what the characters can perceive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Not in so many words ... I tried that tact and failed miserably to convey it correctly.

 

So I'm gathering as I'm catching up. Maybe it's because I'm taking a philosophy class, but I love getting into discussions about perception vs reality.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

No I call that a Limiation on Resurrection Power ... which is a handwaved Healing ...

Nice...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So I'm gathering as I'm catching up. Maybe it's because I'm taking a philosophy class' date=' but I love getting into discussions about perception vs reality.[/quote']

So do I, which is how I kept myself in this conversation to begin with. If we view reality through our perception of it (and I believe there is no such thing as Absolute Objectivity) and our perception of a thing has change then the thing itself has, for all intents and purposes in our view of Reality, changed. Even if it hasn't, because we can't prove it hasn't due to us percieving it has changed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well' date=' this isn't what I'm looking for. I just want a simple, fairly inexpensive power, that allows characters to change their shape. I don't want to worry about what sense it effects, I don't want to have to worry about whether this is real or not. I'm perfectly fine buying other powers that I may or may not want this power to do. Since I've always thought shapeshift was a little expensive, bang for your buck wise, I've usually allowed characters to do minor things with their shape shift, but those are house rules. The rules for shape shift have been unnecessarily overly complicated....[/quote']

 

Okay, reality check on this a moment. Let's pretend that you are a player wanting to write up a new character, and I'm your GM. You've just said the above to me. The first question I'd ask you is "what shapes?"

 

Examples of shifting shape without using Shape Shift:

 

Mr. Fantastic has Stretching and blah blah blah but no Shape Shift, even though his shape shifts a whole lot. Same with plastic man.

 

A dude who can form melee weapons from his arms. His shape is shifting, specifically into sharp pointy objects, but again no Shape Shift Power.

 

Why no Shape Shift Power? Because in both of these cases, the SFX of shifting shape don't call for the game mechanic of the Power Shape Shift. Lots of SFX of shifting shape don't actually. Several do though, and probably enough that is why the Power is called what it is. Kinda like with Energy Blast. Nothing energy about a thrown rock or rubber bullets, even though you can use EB for them, but there's enough energy SFXs that Energy Blast seemed like a good name. Probably the same with Shape Shift.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So do I' date=' which is how I kept myself in this conversation to begin with. If we view reality through our perception of it (and I believe there is no such thing as Absolute Objectivity) and our perception of a thing has change then the thing itself has, for all intents and purposes in our view of Reality, changed. Even if it hasn't, because we can't prove it hasn't due to us percieving it has changed.[/quote']

 

That breaks down when you have more than one perspective. For thousands of years the people of Earth believed Earth was the center of the universe and all things revolved around it. One day, someone observed something different and told other people. Nothing actually changed about the universe, it just kept doing what it's always been doing. The only thing that changed was some guy's perspective, which was different from everyone else's. With do diametricly opposed points of view, one has to be wrong (though neither has to be right), and thus perception does not dictate reality.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That breaks down when you have more than one perspective. For thousands of years the people of Earth believed Earth was the center of the universe and all things revolved around it. One day' date=' someone observed something different and told other people. Nothing actually changed about the universe, it just kept doing what it's always been doing. The only thing that changed was some guy's perspective, which was different from everyone else's. With do diametricly opposed points of view, one has to be wrong (though neither has to be right), and thus perception does not dictate reality.[/quote']

No, it doesn't. Bringing in multiple perception points (two or more people) and then comparing them will bring us to a Concensus Reality; two people pick up an object, one notes "It is orange, with some yellow-green, sort of oval and has a rough texture." the other "It's a dark orange with brigter spots of yellow, shperical and a bit squichy and does not have a smooth surface." Both will agree they are holding "A fruit called an orange."

 

(Even is it's a shapeshifted box.)

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

heh' date=' "Shapeshift, Soylent Green is Shapeshift!!" [/quote']

 

 

Hmmmmm....

 

I can find the 'Rep' button, but I can't find a 'spank' button....

 

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hmmm....

 

So it would seem that Shapeshift is completely useless against any truely "Unsual Sense", since the Shapeshift would have to built against it specifically, which would be higly unlikely.

 

Like Images! (sorry, G-A; I couldn't resist. I take what you offered of re-FRED to heart, but still......)

 

Additional Note: Shapeshift still does not allow a change in mass,

 

Like Images!

 

strictly per the rules, so you still can't immitate anything else that is substantially different as far as mass. So shapeshifting into a "credible" orange isn't possible with Shapeshift alone, but you could be 100 Kg orange. (8^D)

 

Frankly, considering what I _think_ I understand of re-FRED, it seems that SS is now even more expensive to make a perfect copy.

 

At this point, wanting an effective Shape Shifter pretty much justifies MultiForm.

 

Besides, at 5 for 1, an orange ought to be dirt cheap! What? Say a point?

 

What would it cost to be a perfect Orange in reFRED SS?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Since we are talking about Shapeshift and not Images, I don't see that there is any great need to differentiate between appearing to change shape (especially to Sense Groups like Sight and Touch) and actually changing shape, except in the mental disconnect it normally gives us in terms of SFX. It just doesn't make much sense that I can grow wings at will but not be able to fly; grow gills but not be able to breathe underwater; grow a monkey tail but not hold on with it.

 

NOTE: Even mass isn't actually determined by powers such as Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking, except indirectly. Really those Powers change how easy you are to hit and perceive, how much Knockback you take, how much Body, Stun, PD, and ED you have, etc.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

The 4th Edition Shapeshift was more practical for this SFX, but even then it still required some GM allowance.

 

 

Snipping the other good stuff... this one sentence is the key.

 

Basically, every power/build requires some kind of "GM allowance." To the point of shapeshift... both 4th ED version and 5th ED version require some level of "GM allowance."

 

So the question is... go with what is simple and easy with GM allowance... or go with convoluted, non-intutive and complex with GM allowance.

 

This is the big point, IMO. While I can see where Steve and company are coming with teh 5th edition build... going with the simpler, more intuitve build... even if it doesn't try to conform to some concept of core mechanics... is better game design

 

KISS everytime. All things being equal, go with the simpler way to do things.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Which is why I think it should be a power with a substantial buy in, say 40 to 50 points, that grants a pool of 20 or so AP in abilities to represent various animalistic abilities for use when shapeshifted.

 

The powers aren't free, you paid for them when you bought shapeshift, it is just that now form of bird includes working wings and form of fish lets you extract oxygen from water.

 

Hawksmoor

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yes well, when people "Shapeshift" they rarely actually want Shapeshift as a power - as Dust Raven pointed out. "Shapeshifting" is merely the SFX of growing a Monkey Tail (Extra Limbs) or becoming a Hawk (Flight & Shrinking), Growing Gills and a Fish Tail (LS: Breathing Underwater & Extra Swimming),etc...

 

Shapeshift the Power is really aimed at those wanting the Person Mimic Metamorph (like, again, Mystique from the X-Men movies).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Like Images! (sorry' date=' G-A; I couldn't resist. I take what you offered of re-FRED to heart, but still......)[/quote']

...and Invisibility, and Darkness, and....

 

Frankly, considering what I _think_ I understand of re-FRED, it seems that SS is now even more expensive to make a perfect copy.

Now that is true! Affecting all major Sense Groups is not exactly cheap.

 

At this point, wanting an effective Shape Shifter pretty much justifies MultiForm.

Ouch. Yeah. Re-buying all your powers with Multiform just to have a different shape might actually be cheaper than a Shapeshift that affects all (normal) Senses. I'm too lazy to look right now (and of course it will depend on the Total Points of the character). Of course, then the major benefit of Shapeshift is that you can vary the form easily, whereas Multiform requires that you buy every individual shape, or buy it with a VPP....

 

What would it cost to be a perfect Orange in reFRED SS?

Oh, go away!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Really?

 

Are you certain?

 

Where does it say that?

 

Or is this a very good and wel reasoned assumption you have.

 

That is fine but the power is Shape Shift and shifting to a form that is say like a fish should allow for gross physical changes that include the concept of gills.

 

Hawksmoor

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yes well, when people "Shapeshift" they rarely actually want Shapeshift as a power - as Dust Raven pointed out. "Shapeshifting" is merely the SFX of growing a Monkey Tail (Extra Limbs) or becoming a Hawk (Flight & Shrinking), Growing Gills and a Fish Tail (LS: Breathing Underwater & Extra Swimming),etc...

 

Shapeshift the Power is really aimed at those wanting the Person Mimic Metamorph (like, again, Mystique from the X-Men movies).

That's true, but a great deal of the time it is tied to a character that can, "change into," many different kinds of creature, etc., and we really have nothing to use to adequately make such small or, "mundane," changes to our Powers as a different physical form might provide, even though we do have things like the Change Environment Power that causes minor effects that can all be achieved to a greater extent by other Powers. Imagine if we had to buy Change Environment by building a big complex power construct and/or a VPP for Area of Effect TK, EB, Negative Skill Levels, etc. It wouldn't be nearly so nice, now would it?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I might be jumping in a bit late, but...

 

 

 

What is the real difference between describing to your players "There is a brick wall in front of you" and "You see a brick wall in front of you"? For most people, these statement are synonamous, even though they aren't. The first states the brick wall actually exists regardless of our perception, the second implies the brick wall exists by stating your perceptions. Subtle maybe, but significant.

 

Let's assume your the GM, and the heroes have just beaten up the thugs in the lobby and have burst into the secret lab on level 27. There is no one there. However, one of the walls is a one-way illusion of a wall that blends in with the surrounding room. The villain watches from the other side. How would you describe the room and the room's walls? Certainly you wouldn't state that part of the wall is illusion. In fact, you'd try like hell to avoid the player's making that assumption. You'd avoid using phrases like "it appears..." and "the room seems..." You'd state facts, or you'd state the illusions as facts until someone uncovered a fact that condradicts what you've already told them.

 

Of course, what we're dealing with is nothing more than a matter of perception. Regardless of what the wall really is, the heroes will perceive it as a normal wall and have no reason to suspect otherwise (at least initially). Which means the state of the wall is actually irrelevant, and the only thing that matters is what the characters can perceive.

 

Outside of philosophical matters of perception... in the realm of the RPG and the social contract... players have to trust the GM to state things that are "true" in that the GM must take responsibility for putting the shared imaginary world into being.

 

If I'm GMing, most of the time I'm conginzant of how I phrase things. If there is a brick wall there, and I intend to convey that... I say, "There is a brick wall in front of you." If I'm conveying what the characters perceive, I will say "You see a brick wall in front of you."

 

In one instance I'm creating an imaginary setting for us to interact within. In another, I'm telling them what their character is perceiving... just like I would say, "You hear a car door slam," or "You smell smoke!"

 

We have to move away from normal philosophical discussions of perception when talking about the contextual use of language in the extremely unique RPG play experience environment.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Really?

 

Are you certain?

 

Where does it say that?

page eleventeen

 

Or is this a very good and wel reasoned assumption you have.

yeah - that covers it.

 

That is fine but the power is Shape Shift and shifting to a form that is say like a fish should allow for gross physical changes that include the concept of gills.

 

Hawksmoor

So if I use Shapeshift to look like Superman do bullets start boucning off me and can I leap tall buildings in a single bound?

 

Shapeshift just turns you into the shape of a fish. It doesn't actually turn you INTO a fish. That's Transform or Multiform.

 

Emphasis Added - you said "like a fish" not "A Fish" extremely important semantic difference. It's say "It's like nerve gas, you now, only different."

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I guess the key here is trading major effect for versatility. TK can cause some major grief. Change Environment can do a lot of different stuff even though it is not very good at grabbing things or doing damage (or making people blind, or making people see things that aren't there, or...). Multiform can do some major changes, but the form into which you change is fixed. We have no equivalent that can make a wide variety of minor changes. At least, not without resorting to a VPP which has to be drastically Limited and such, but we could do anything with that; it is overkill, and too much work besides.