Metamorphosis

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

To echo Brainstorm above: (Rep by the way. I was trying to figure out how to post this very thought, when I read your post.)

 

If the power had read "Shapeshift allows you to change your physical form. To measure how effective/complete the change of your form is we will use compare how different the new form is to the original based on the sense group. Touch: How different do you feel? Sight: How different do you look? etc.

 

Instead it reads in such a way that it approaches illusion and glamour instead of actual changing of shape. I don't think either was the case... I think this was a "too clever for your own good" moment in trying to make Hero have internally consistent mechanics... the attempt was made to appear consistent without really thinking through whether that was a good idea or not.

 

That and the fact that shapeshift is often more expensive than it's utility... well, that is a factor of much of Hero these days. (As Dust Raven pointed out earlier.)

[prestidigitator]

Metamorphosis Power

 

I was thinking about the versatility point I made above. See post #100 and post #97. Here is an idea for a more versatile Multiform-type Power:

Metamorphosis

Type: Standard Power/Body-Affecting Power

Duration: Constant

Target: Self Only

Range: Self

Costs End: Yes

Cost: 3 Character Points to shift 5 Real Points between two Characteristics or Powers

 

This Power may be used to change around a character's Characteristics and other Powers (and Skills, Talents, and Perks). To shift 5 Real Points from one or more source Characteristics or Powers to other target Characteristics or Powers costs 3 Character Points. Metamorphosis costs End to activate and maintain. The source Characteristic(s) and Power(s), the target Characteristic(s) and Power(s), and the relative amounts that are shifted between them are fixed and must be chosen when Metamorphosis is bought (unless the

Variable Effects

Advantage is taken; see below).

 

If any of the target Powers is a Power that the character does not normally possess, the parameters of this Power as well as any Power Modifiers that will be a part of it must be chosen beforehand unless the

Variable Effects

Advantage is applied (see below).

 

Example:

Felix has 6 points of Metamorphosis (10 Real Points from Strength to Running). He is normally very strong, but in his feline form he gives up some of that strength (-10 Str) to be able to run very quickly (+5" Running). Later he has some experience and learns to shift into many different feline forms. He changes his Metamorphosis so that he can shift 20 points of any physical characteristics into any feline powers for 30 points (Metamorphosis: 20 points [12 Base Points]; Variable Effects: Any Physical Characteristic (+3/4) to Any Feline Power (+3/4) [30 Active Points]).

 

Felix's nemesis The Jade Monkey can sacrifice his Clinging and Climbing for a lunar Force Field. He buys 12 points of Metamorphosis and can shift 15 Real Points from Clinging and 5 Real Points from Climbing to a 15 PD/15 ED Force Field [30 Active Points] with

Extra Time: Full Phase (-1/2)

[20 Real Points]. He does not normally have a Force Field, but defines the Power fully because he has not purchased the

Variable Effects

Advantage for his Metamorphosis.

 

Variable Effects (+3/4 to +1):

Both the source Characteristic or Power and the target Characteristic or Power must be chosen when the character buys Metamorphosis. For a +3/4 Advantage, the source Characteristic or Power may be chosen from a related group of special effects, and likewise for the target Characteristic or Power; to be able to change both in such a manner requires a total of two +3/4 Advantages. For a +1 Advantage, the source Characteristic or Power may be anything, and likewise for the target Characteristic or Power; to be able to change both in such a manner requires a total of two +1 Advantages.

 

Fixed Effect (-1/2):

With this Limitation, all points must be transfered if any are. This Limitation may not be taken if there is overlap between the set of source Characteristics/Powers and the set of target Characteristics/Powers due to the

Variable Effects

Advantage above.

What do you think? I'm not sure of the costs, but I was toying around with similar Multiforms, Multipowers, and Succors (with Suppress Side Effects) and it seemed about right compared to those, though it is hard to judge the value of operating on Real Points (like Multiform, essentially) vs. Active Points (like Succor and Multipower, essentially).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That's a very nice construct, I'd have to sit down with some characters and do a bit of math before figuring if it's well balanced.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

As subtle as it seems' date=' all of the backlash against Shapeshifting seems to be rooted in the premature mention of Sense Groups in the Power description.[/quote']

 

heh heh heh heh heh---

 

just for the record, my own beef with the 'new and improved' shape shift is the out of whack (megascaled) cost vs utility angle.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Apologies in advance......

 

Don't sweat it: "A good time was had by all!"

 

 

 

Duke, you've known me long enough not to give me the benefit of the doubt on anything

 

Well, there is practical knowledge, and then there is common courtesy

 

You are getting muddled by that Hero mojo. Just because they call it MultiForm doesn't mean they looked up a definition beforehand. I mean, they didn't for anything else

 

Actually, no-- not muddled. I made my points: the cost is assinine, and the utility can be handled with SFX for other powers-- the ones that folks are expecting Shape Shift to give away as freebies. Though with the current cost, you'd think it'd come with a packed-in VPP for that very thing, wouldn't you?

 

I had not meant to really recommend one power over another; most of that post can be put down to getting 'wrapped up' on the discussion-- I was seeing a great deal of some of the other points of view, and got carried away with championing!

 

 

Well what it does it let you appear to be another shape with an annoying little glitch-fix to allow you to fit through small gaps.

 

I don't like the way SS is currently handled. In spite of any fixes, or more detailed explanations, or anything else of that nature that can be thrown at me, I won't like it.

 

As I've said before, it smacks of what happens when try to break down into components individual items of expense when you are better off simply removing individual components via Limitations.

 

A lot of 5E (and I've mentioned this in regard to 'Instant Change' and other excessively re-tooled powers; I mention it here for Shape Shift) reads too much as an attempt to reduce the available mechanics and bring other powers 'in line' by redefining them in terms of those same mechanics.

 

If that worked, the original writers wouldn't have had to create Champions 1E. It's like someone gave the system to a lawyer and said 'here. Rewrite this.' To date, I've never found anything so complex that the legal mind could not complicate it further.

 

And you end up with a lot of re-worked, cobbled stuff with 'this case only' type "glitch fixes."

 

 

The idea is not hard. The way we are forced to apply the idea makes it hard. that's the problem (see above)

 

And what you are replying to here:

I wasn't commenting on SS the power; I was commenting on the "if I am shaped like it why don't I have it's powers?" angle. Note the cracker reference.

 

I totally agree that the new way the power works is--

well, it's largely unnecessary.

 

 

Because of the unnecessarily convoluted way the power has been written up in the book?

 

We're on the same side of the fence here.

 

It might work fine but it costs too much.

 

Which is a wonderful indication that it's not working quite right. If you have to do all that to pull of a simple SFX, something's broken. Either you're using the wrong power for the construct, or that power just doesn't work right.

 

I mean, let's face it, you could pay 52 points to be able to turn into the leader of the freeworld, apparently, with shapeshift, or actually change into him with multiform for about, what, 2 points?

 

And for substantially less points, you could even just buy Disguise: 30-.

 

 

 

 

No it is not 'any shape': you can not flatten yourself out like a T-1000,

 

Really? I _hate_ having my stuff packed! I can't wait till this move is over with!

 

you can not change your 6 foot human into a 10 foot ladder

 

This I don't understand. Given that you have to retain the same mass, and the sheer number of 'empty spaces' in a ladder, I'd think 100kg of putty-like human would have no real difficulty becoming a 10ft ladder. Or is there something banning the shape?

 

there are enormous practical difficulties with that 'any' bit.

 

There are enormous practical difficulties with more than just that bit.

[Brainstorm]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

The price complaint does also seem to be a valid point. The utility of Shapeshift varies from campaign to campaign (being mostly window dressing in campaigns where roleplaying consists of brief narrative pauses between combats while it is much more important in campaigns where fighting is the interlude and other interactions dominate the experience.) Yet even in campaigns where subterfuge and social interaction are crucial, it does seem as if Shapeshift in its present form is disproportionately expensive. Extra Time is a reasonable way to bring the cost back down to a sensible level, but Active Points remain problematic (all the moreso for Shapeshifters who don't want maintaining an altered form to be exhausting.) It's just from this thread as well as what I've heard offline, the more popular complaint did seem to be rooted in the misconception that 5th ed. Shapeshift was necessarily illusory rather than actual physical change.

 

However, I certainly grant that 35 AP for Power-based Mimicry (Non-Targeting Sense, Any Shape, Imitation) is extremely high, particularly considering it also costs 3 END to deliver a few lines in a voice thus altered. Likewise, the generic builds in 5ER's sidebar feel pretty heavy cost-wise. As I look things over, I think a simple House Rule fix would be to stipulate that Shapeshift has no END cost (thus making it only kinda expensive to build Powers that enable indefinite maintenance of an altered form and almost reasonable to take a "Costs END" Shapeshift.)

 

I still do like the idea of purchasing different elements of the Power individually and I like the way the existing Adders are written, but ultimately I agree that this largely cosmetic Power should be priced in a way that recognizes its limited utility in spite of however much coolness some people (including myself) believe it has. Personally, I happen to think Shapeshifting is a fun roleplaying device that is difficult to exploit in campaigns where everyone understands it has no effect on Powers or other abilities (except COM.) With that in mind, it seems that a cheap Shapeshift Power would be good for the system insofar as one might wish to encourage other aspects of roleplaying and discourage character building that neglects any serious non-combat considerations.

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

 

P.S. As far as the 10' ladder debate goes, I might take issue with that based on the idea that Shapeshifting should not provide free Stretching. Yet I have been known to allow something like Shapeshifting into a form with a much larger than 6' wingspan (since I didn't want to stop play to discuss the Stretching issue and the only purpose of it was to enhance a pending PRE attack.) Still, when it comes to having a non-cosmetic function, like enabling non-flying characters to climb out of a pit or spanning a gap between rooftops more than one hex apart, I would disallow such applications without the Stretching to justify the distance. I believe no rationalization is required, but if it helps, consider how human putty not especially adapted to Stretching could be harmed when the his friendly neighborhood brick starts tromping up those slender rungs of the metahuman ladder.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Am I on everyone's ignore list? You don't have to agree with me, but if I directly answer a question or address a particular issue, why does it keep coming up as if you can't even hear me?

 

 

Right! This is exactly what I've been saying! SS is not a sense-affecting power. It is a Body Affecting power. Defining it by sense groups is almost as bad an idea as defining other powers that way.

 

What is an Energy Blast had to be defined by the senses it affects? Well, you can see fire, you can hear fire, and you can feel fire, so a Fire EB has to be bought to affect Sight, Hearing, and Touch (oh, and probably smell, too). Then we just handwave the part about doing damage to the target.

 

That's exactly the approach Steve used here. You can see an orange, you can smell an orange, you can touch an orange. Therefore, you buy Shapeshift: Orange to affect Sight, Smell, and Touch. Then we just handwave the part about actually changing shape.

 

And yes, SS *does* actually change your shape. It's not "fooling" any senses. You sense a different shape, because there actually is a different shape.

 

But why am I bothering to write this? No one seems to be reading my posts on this thread at all?

 

In this, I dissagree with Steve Long about not labling Shape Shift as a Sense Affecting Power. It can be Standard and Body-Affecting as well, several Powers fall in to more than one or two categories after all. Perhaps it'a an oversight. The Power itself is fine as is though, just apparently confusing to a lot of people for some reason.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

To echo Brainstorm above: (Rep by the way. I was trying to figure out how to post this very thought, when I read your post.)

 

If the power had read "Shapeshift allows you to change your physical form. To measure how effective/complete the change of your form is we will use compare how different the new form is to the original based on the sense group. Touch: How different do you feel? Sight: How different do you look? etc.

 

Instead it reads in such a way that it approaches illusion and glamour instead of actual changing of shape. I don't think either was the case... I think this was a "too clever for your own good" moment in trying to make Hero have internally consistent mechanics... the attempt was made to appear consistent without really thinking through whether that was a good idea or not.

Are we arguing how the rules are phrased now? Shape Shift is broken because it's phrased poorly instead of Shape Shift is broken because it doesn't do what I want it to do?

 

That and the fact that shapeshift is often more expensive than it's utility... well, that is a factor of much of Hero these days. (As Dust Raven pointed out earlier.)

 

Why is it lately that (at least in threads like these) only the negative comments about the rules are appreciated?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

heh heh heh heh heh---

 

just for the record, my own beef with the 'new and improved' shape shift is the out of whack (megascaled) cost vs utility angle.

 

Not picking on you specifically Duke, but your post reminds me that I really haven't said what I meant to say about the issue of Shape Shift's cost.

 

Is it expensive? Yes. Is it prohibitively expensive? Is its cost disporportionate to its utility? I say no. Why do I say no? Because of the other major changed in 5th edition. Many Powers that used to be fairly inexpensive in 4th and previous editions now have comparitive costs to other Powers (such as Desolidification, Energy Blast, etc.). Also, this has been done globally to the system. The costs of everything that wasn't already expensive (at a useful level) went up, more or less leveling the playing field.

 

Is this good or bad? I think good. Powers typically represent abilities beyond that of normal men and women, or possibly what a normal person can to extraordinarily well (to the point of near perfection). Such things should be expensive to represent such power as well as utility. Granted, some things have are more immediate payoff (such as EB or FF), while others only apply in certain situations but typically mean the difference between survival and death when so (such as Life Support, Invisibility and, yes, even Shape Shift).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Are we arguing how the rules are phrased now? Shape Shift is broken because it's phrased poorly instead of Shape Shift is broken because it doesn't do what I want it to do?

 

 

 

Why is it lately that (at least in threads like these) only the negative comments about the rules are appreciated?

 

No... not arguing... stating that the poor phrasing may be the reason so many seem to have a problem with the rules. If they'd been phrased differently... perhaps more clearly communicating the intent... then there might not be these arguments at all.

 

And gee, sorry about crediting you... I didn't want to sound like I was coming up with a point that someone else had made without noting the source.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I don't know if the following bit of text (or something similar) made it into 5ER, but in FREd it says:

 

Sometimes a Power receives minor benefits and drawbacks because of its special effects. These minor modifiers don't change the cost of the Power.... For example' date=' a character with fire powers can help keep his friends warm if they're trapped in a freezer. While the character could buy this (as Life Support...), the effect is so minor that the GM should allow him to do it without paying Character Points for it - it's an "indirect benefit" of his chosen special effect.[/quote']

 

Keep the above in mind when thinking about Shapeshift. Morphing your hand into a huge sword and getting a 4d6 HKA is IMO too much for an "indirect benefit". Changing into a 10" ladder is not. Squeezing through the bars of a cage is not. Turning into a 100 kg frisbie so Lieutenant Muscle* can throw you as a balanced, aerodynamic object instead of an unbalanced, non-aerodynamic object is not.

 

I wouldn't allow Shapeshifting wings to grant standard Flight, but I might allow a few extra inches of Leaping or limited Gliding, or maybe even very limited Flight (say 2x END or more, RSR, limited maneauverability, maybe Concentration, etc.).

 

If someone buys 50 points worth of SS: Any Shape and the Power Skill for it, are you really going to be that stingy with the indirect benefits?

 

*Who says all superheroes with a rank have to be captians?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Not picking on you specifically Duke' date='[/quote']

 

Think nothing of it! I make an excellent example, as I've got a thick hide, and am willing to stand up in front of the class

 

 

 

You make some excellent points in regard to the increasing cost of many of the powers (Though I've noticed myself that the combat-oriented powers and Advantages seem to have managed to avoid the price escalation).

 

I've got a couple of takes on these, but have never bothered voicing them simply because they really are more opinion-based than anything else. (The writer won't answer design questions-- as is very much his right, so it's kind of hard to understand the facts behind some of the more esoteric changes).

 

On one end, you end up with more-or-less the same level of character power initially. what was once a 200-250 pt character is now a 350 pt character who has more or less the same powers. Fair enough. But the side-effect here is that you end up with either the same character toting around an extra 100 points of disads, or you end up with a character with the same disads who ends up being what a 150-175 point character used to be.

 

Again, not a serious game play issue, but a decided shift in the 'flavor' of the game overall.

 

On the other end, go through the powers that have been bumped in cost, and study the new build logic-- at least, as best can be interpreted without the writer's input.

 

Now as I said, this is heavily opinion based, so if such things as opinions offend anyone, or are automatically construed as vile attacks, please; I urge you to read no further. I'm not here to start arguments, but to enjoy discussions the same as the rest of you.

 

It seems _to me_ that a great deal of the 'cost upped' powers are cost-upped as a result of having tried to cobble them into a universal build mechanic of some sort. No, so far, there is not a mechanic that suits all powers (though the idea of Damage Classes back in 4E started drifting even assualt-and-battery powers into such a scope), but there seems to be a definate effort to categorize powers into a set of mechanics. To me, such an idea is contrary to the best aspects of HERO, and that was its ability to integrate totally unrelated ideas by divorcing the idea of 'this power does X' from the idea of 'this is how to use the power.'

 

Okay, I don't have a good way to say that. Let me try one more time. Instead of having 'an ice power that let's me freeze a city block and everyone in it,' you achieve that power by using Change Environment, Entangle, perhaps a drain or two, etc---

 

The idea of the powers, as I have always understood them, was originally to reduce them to their basest useful form-- a sort of 'lowest common denominator, that could be used to simulate multiple actual effects. If you only wanted a piece or part of a power, or if it was not totally effective, you took Limitations to represent that you actually had less than a full version of that ability. This lead to even greater ability to tailor interesting effects, even up to linking multiple Limited powers to create a whole new idea.

 

But the tendency I see in 5E feels (again, _to me_) to be the exact opposite of that. If you want a hand, you buy four fingers and a thumb, with a ten-point 'palm' adder. If you want a hand that does not have a thumb, well that's not a Limited hand; that's just four fingers with the palm adder.

 

Same with shape-shift. Consider it's utility. Ultimately, it's a 'super disguise' or a 'super concealment' or -- well, you get the idea. Unless you actually buy other powers to represent that you turn into something rather than become shaped like it (witness the 10 ft ladder example), there is little utility beyond 'ultimate disguises.'

 

But the way you buy it-- and I'm not going to discuss the semantics of whether you change or seem to change--

 

you buy it to 'fool' each given sense, individually, add in more for sense-groups, add in whatever detects you might think of or afford----

it gets pricey quickly, and the price outstrips the returns for the invesment.

 

It seems _to me_ that more in keeping with the intentions-- or at least the feel-- of the original game would be a simple 'shape shift', period. If you don't want to fool the ears, or the radar, or the nose, or the eyes--

well that indicates that your shape shifting is incomplete. It is limited. buy shape shift, and take limitations to represent the fact that ultimately it doesn't work 'right.'

 

Buy a hand, with the Limitation 'missing thumb.'

 

It keeps the cost reasonable. It's a single-layer power: shape shift instead of the build-up power.

 

That's the bug for me, I guess. You aren't buying what you want to build a power. You are building a power that will be used to build a power. Doesn't sit right. You don't buy EB per kilowatt. You buy a complete EB, at the power level you want. If it's incomplete, you detract from it with Limitations. If it's 'superior' in some way, you put advantages on it. But you aren't buying each section of the power:

 

EB vs. opponents

EB vs items

EB vs focus

EB makes heat

EB makes light

EB makes noise

EB has potential for knock back

 

etc, etc, etc

 

Get it to the basics, but make sure that the 'basic' is a whole power, all on its own.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

How dare you have opinions, Duke! And to defile our public forum by actually stating them! Shame, shame shame...

 

 

But I do see your point. To me it's a matter of preference. When it gets to the table, there is no functional difference between buying four fingers and a palm and buying a hand with a "no thumb" limitation (to use your example). And so long as the costs are similar, there is no significant difference mechanically either. Of course, there is a huge difference in cost between 5th's Shape Shift and earlier versions that didn't break it down into sense groups, but I've found that the increased cost makes "I can shapechange into anything indefinately" really expensive (and on par with Invisibility, past and present editions). I consider "anything" in this case to be very powerful, and the cost should reflect that.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Duke,

 

What you are descibing is one of the basic philosophies of game design that tends to have two approaches:

 

1) Start small and build up to the desired concept.

2) Start big and deconstruct it as necessary to the desired concept.

 

It's something that the GIR group has had to discuss and address on a case by case basis.

 

Unfortunately, neither one is correct for everything. Some things work better with the first approach, while others almost by necessity require the second approach to be practical.

 

The same type of argument has appeared with Desolid especially.

 

Shapeshift in 4th Edition starts somewhat large and you had to limit it usually in some manner.

 

Shapeshift in 5th Edition starts small and you build up.

 

Both had certain problems due to the vagueness of what Shapeshift should actually represent. And that's where most of the discussions and arguments come from. People start out with a preconceived idea of what they think Shapeshift should represent, and depending on what that is will usually determine on which side of the discussion you will be on.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

How dare you have opinions, Duke! And to defile our public forum by actually stating them! Shame, shame shame...

 

 

HA! Duly noted, of course

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Duke,

 

What you are descibing is one of the basic philosophies of game design that tends to have two approaches:

 

1) Start small and build up to the desired concept.

2) Start big and deconstruct it as necessary to the desired concept.

 

In a nutshell, yes.

 

It's something that the GIR group has had to discuss and address on a case by case basis.

 

Forgive my ignorance on this; I'm not familiar with "GIR group."

 

Unfortunately, neither one is correct for everything. Some things work better with the first approach, while others almost by necessity require the second approach to be practical.

 

Agreed.

 

Shapeshift in 4th Edition starts somewhat large and you had to limit it usually in some manner.

 

Also agreed.

 

Shapeshift in 5th Edition starts small and you build up.

 

And agreed here as well, with a single qualifier: my complaint, perhaps lost in that rather rambly point above, was that in 5E, ShapeShift doesn't start out as Shape Shift. It starts out as something-- well, it starts out 'odd;' I think we can all agree on that, that has to be bought numerous times and then built into Shape Shift.

 

That's all. I wouldn't really even have had such a big issue with the pricing (still would have had an issue, but a bit less) if it was simply : Shapeshift. 50 points. Let's you shift your shape within the constraints of your body mass and material make-up.

 

But it doesn't. It starts out as 'Change something.' Buy it enough times, and you're still not going to have Shape Shift, simply because of the unusual senses and detects. There's no way to cover all of them. Someone is going to see a spandex commando when he looks at the ficas.

 

I agree with Dust Raven: as long as it costs out the same at the table, I'm usually cool with it. But when it costed up as far as it did and ultimately is less than it was, well--- I'm less cool with it.

 

Both had certain problems due to the vagueness of what Shapeshift should actually represent.

 

Conceded.

 

And that's where most of the discussions and arguments come from. People start out with a preconceived idea of what they think Shapeshift should represent,

 

Perhaps, but I think in this case a lot of the discussion and argument is over the fact that Shapeshift is no longer what it _did_ represent, and there is no way to make it so, but with a higher price you can fool Joe Traffic the same as you used to.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

WHAT?! More opinions? What have I done?!

 

 

And I have to bow out for a bit;

 

I've again run out of things to add to the conversation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Personally I don't think that any power that gets debated this much can be considered to be anything but broken. HOW it is broken is a matter for debate, but if (as Dust Raven says ) "The Power itself is fine as is though, just apparently confusing to a lot of people for some reason." then my take is that something that a lot of people have difficulty using is something that is not working properly.

 

Oh and a big shout out to PhilFlesishmann. I agree with the Power Skill you can get extra utility out of SS or any power. The reason I harp on about the 10' ladder thing is because it is specifically prohibited by the rules, even though it seems daft - the reason is probably that this sort of thing might lead to stretching. Hmm. I mean you can probably get a few inches of flight or leaping with an EB and the power skill.

 

One thing I really like in a number of other games is the 'behind the scenes' panels which DO go into the design philosophy of a rule or power. Hero is dead set against this by and large, and I think it is something that would really add to the system

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Think nothing of it! I make an excellent example, as I've got a thick hide, and am willing to stand up in front of the class

 

.....

 

Yeah, what he said. The missing thumb propblem does define costs issues for SS: a ground-up build is going to be far more expensive than a trickle-down build, and for what a lot of people WANT SS for, it costs too much.

 

The odd superspy wil get good value from it, but see my example on a VPP MF or, for that matter, think about how much of a mental illusion you could conjure up with the points...(or, as someone else pointed out, you can get an awful lot of very high skills for that kinda expenditure...disguise, acting, mimicry: actually you will probably need some of them for perfect disguise anyway - you may look and sound and smell like Dubya, but if you go saying anything coherent or sensible, the games up....)

 

The power has unique features which don't cost much, but even the have problems (for the reason Duke pointed out) - disguising your scent is cheap IF you only want one other scent. Any decent and experienced tracker will probably work out the ruse if you only have one other scent, and enemies will know a small group...so it now beceomes far cheaper, and better, to buy invisibility for the scent group - you leave nothing and can't be tracked at all for 10 points of invisibility, due to the 'build it from the ground up; philosophy. There is very little in SS that can't be done better or cheaper by other powers. For a power that is 'core' to a LOT of superhero comics (and other genres) this one could do with a lot of work. IMO.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

There is very little in SS that can't be done better or cheaper by other powers. For a power that is 'core' to a LOT of superhero comics (and other genres) this one could do with a lot of work. IMO.

 

As I said before, I tend to do shapeshifting characters by buying powers and using shapeshift as the SFX of those powers. I was wondering whether shapeshift should possibly be a discussion of how other powers might be limited or advantaged or simply just stated using Shapeshift as the SFX justification of the powers?

 

That is, lose the actual power shapeshift but explain how to achieve such a thing through the use of other powers - perhaps (in Hero terms) its not a power that exists at all - it is a simply a justification for other powers that "do the job better"....

 

 

Doc

[Constantine]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Where's the energy here?

 

Screaming and Yelling: EB 6d6 STUN ONLY (I scream and yell until you can't take it anymore and pass out)

 

Sleep Gas: EB 4d6 NND Area Effect (4" radius)

 

On wait, but none of these are Energy, so we have to use some other Power for them, right, because and Energy Blast must have Energy involved? That's rediculous. Next you'll be telling me that I can buy Armor defined as having normal looking and feeling flesh that happens to be invulnerable or a FF what doesn't produce some nimbus around the character.

 

These are game mechanics and rules, not a dictionary.

 

Actually, yelling and screaming would involve sonic energy, the thrown rock from your previous example would also involve kinetic energy, and as for the gas, that is a little more tricky, but now you are getting further from the base power, with a couple of advantages. But, I'm betting that the poison gas would have some kind of delivery system, which is where the energy would come in, as you didn't put no range on your power... The examples you gave for missile deflection don't jive either, because the missile is actually being deflected/stopped, its just the manner of which the deflecting is happening.

 

My point was, and still is that when people look at a power called energy blast, they know what they are getting. Same with most of the other powers in the book. But not shape shift. Sure, its not a dictionary, but why call something one thing when it does another? I expect things to make common sense in a game system. Shape shift, as written, in my opinion, doesn't.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Originally Posted by Dust Raven

Where's the energy here?

 

Screaming and Yelling: EB 6d6 STUN ONLY (I scream and yell until you can't take it anymore and pass out)

 

Sleep Gas: EB 4d6 NND Area Effect (4" radius)

 

On wait, but none of these are Energy, so we have to use some other Power for them, right, because and Energy Blast must have Energy involved? That's rediculous. Next you'll be telling me that I can buy Armor defined as having normal looking and feeling flesh that happens to be invulnerable or a FF what doesn't produce some nimbus around the character.

 

These are game mechanics and rules, not a dictionary.

 

And to this point as well... just because you use Energy Blast to create a new construct called Gas Attack... doesn't mean that the base Energy Blast power doesn't still do what it says. Blast you with energy to do damage.

 

Shapeshift doesn't do what it says. It is not a base power... like Doc D says above. It is a compound power built through extrapolation of other powers and rules... to approximate Shapeshift. This kind of build really isn't a core power. It is interesting, but not really a power in and of itself. A core power should have a core function... you can then extrapolate that function to build unique constructs (your EB to Gas attack as an example.)

 

If you are going to have a core power of Shapeshift... it should shift your shape... not just approximate it. I'm leaning toward being with Doc on this one... that the system may not really support such an open ended "core power" and thus it shouldn't be a power in and of itself. (It wasn't in the first two editions, if I remember correctly)

 

This also touches upon the whole "design theory" bit that Sean has commented on. Since we dont' get a "I designed it this way because..." type of explanation... we have no basis but supposition as to why... and can only argue our own position on this.

 

Since "shape" has no defined stats (not really) in Hero... then it begs the question as to why Shapeshift is a defined core power. It probably shouldnt' be. No more so than you would have "Ice Ramp" as a core power... even though it is a staple of supers... you have ways to build Ice Ramp power with core Powers... Shapeshift should reside in that same arena.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Actually' date=' yelling and screaming would involve sonic energy, [/quote']

 

Reaching going on on both sides here I think!

 

I think that the main argument system wise has to be that EB is designed as a way to cause STUN and BODY damage to characters in the game. That is the core system function. You add a bit of SFX when you decide as a player/GM whether to pit that damage against energy defences or physical defences - the first step in defining the colour of the damage causing entity.

 

After that you add more colour - its to do with shouting, or fire or small bits of metal moving very quickly.

 

Energy Blast is probably a misnomer in the game because it would seem obvious to apply energy blast against energy defence but that is not the case. It should be called Attack Power or something similarly generic.

 

 

I now return you to your regular programme.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yeh Doc! I think there must be some feedback on this invisible mind link: I was slowly coming to the same conclusion.

 

The only thing that sfx for powers doesn't do well is change with use: I mean you might shapeshift into a giant bird or into a giant insect and still have flight and killing attack. You could buy variable sfx, but that gets expensive real quick, and I'm no great fan of handwaving. For a lot of stuff I think the sensible application of sfx is the answer. For wider application.....

 

What I'd like to see:

 

1. Fitting through small gaps (down to about 2cm or so)/escape normal bonds done as an adder to stretching. Can't offhand think of any characters that can squeeze through small gaps that CAN'T also stretch at least a bit. This could alternatively be done as a seperate power, for maybe 10 points. NB you can not usually use this to escape entangles but you can link in strength for that if you like.

 

2. The return of Instant Change, at various levels: for 5 points you can change clothes or appearance, for 10 you can change to any clothes or a limited group of appearances and for 20 you can change into anything (cribbed directly from shapeshift) BUT you can not imitate anyone. If you so define it no one will be able to ID you from your base form to your shifted forms but it is NOT a super-disguise. Call this shape shift. Alternatively you could do this as an extremely limited Multiform (only to change appearance at -2, so a 350 point character would need a 70 point multiform, say you have 16 forms that would be 90 points with the -2 makes 30 real - each a complete change of anything detectable with no change of powers, skills, characteristics or disadvantages)

 

3. Leave shapeshift in (but make the base state 'can change into a related group of things', have a +10 adder for 'anything' and limitations for more restricted groups) and re-name it Change Appearance.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Forgive my ignorance on this; I'm not familiar with "GIR group."

 

It's a group started by Zornwil.

 

Mission Statement

"To help preserve the integrity of the HERO System by researching the core principles of HERO and its application in the building of its rules. To identify/create mechanics and methods that are consistent with the goal of improving the HERO System. To show how these methods can achieve a desired play experience for both players and referees."

 

So we've had to delve into many of the design techniques and what that means as far as the game system itself.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Actually' date=' yelling and screaming would involve sonic energy, the thrown rock from your previous example would also involve kinetic energy, and as for the gas, that is a little more tricky, but now you are getting further from the base power, with a couple of advantages. But, I'm betting that the poison gas would have some kind of delivery system, which is where the energy would come in, as you didn't put no range on your power... The examples you gave for missile deflection don't jive either, because the missile is actually being deflected/stopped, its just the manner of which the deflecting is happening.[/quote']

Yeah, okay, sure. And the SFX "i just think 'hurt' and he takes damage" would involve some kind of energy as well (no Advantages here, just doesn't work unless there is a clear view of the target and everyone automatically, subconsciously, realized who's attacking who). And lovely to think that turning insubstantial will deflect anything instead of simply letting it pass right through (A form of "combat desolidification" bought using Missile Deflection).

 

My point was, and still is that when people look at a power called energy blast, they know what they are getting. Same with most of the other powers in the book. But not shape shift. Sure, its not a dictionary, but why call something one thing when it does another? I expect things to make common sense in a game system. Shape shift, as written, in my opinion, doesn't.

 

Same thing with Armor, FF, and a dozen others, as I've said. Just because Shape Shift is more obviously versitile than other other Powers (not more versitile, just more obvious that it is) doesn't make it broken or not applicable to shifting shapes.