Metamorphosis

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

And therein lies the problem, IMO.

 

I mean, the base state of 'SS' is that you can change into one other form. If you want to detect as a fish to all intents and purposes, then this is going to cost you: 32 points for sight, the other 3 senses and cellular.

 

I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt, and assuming you meant 'change into another shape' instead of 'form.' The two are radically different:

 

A little girl's doll is baby-shaped, but only the most die-hard of nit-pickers would expect that it should Detect as a baby. Peperidge Farms makes fish-shaped crackers. No one expects them to actually be alive, let alone swim, breathe under water, or Detect as fish.

 

Shape Shift (from what I glean of G-A explaining re-FRED's changes), despite all qualms with pricing vs utility, does do exactly what the name implies: it let's you get another shape. Just like a baby doll, a fish cracker, or a commemorative figurine, you are shaped like something else. You don't become one; that's what Multi-Form does, by default of how character generation works:

 

My character was a young widow who discovered her husband's secret stash of high-tech gear he had confiscated during his years as a super spy. In order to avenger his death, she donned the gear and became Lady Mecha, hero of the people.

 

My character is an alien from a very strange planet where all HERO players agree on the best way to simulate something.... He breathes methane and came to save the shape-shifting orange crates.

 

My character is a lamp that was struck by lightning. Now it's sentient,and has the following powers

 

No one would ever doubt that these characters would be, to their very fiber, a woman, and alien, and a lamp. They will be shaped right, formed right, and Detect as in every possible way. This _must_ be true, as the very basis of the bulk of this SS discussion is how SS will not let you get completely away from the characteristics of that base form! Want a new base form? Make a new character. Want to have it be the same character? Multiform lets you do just that.

 

Want to keep the same base form but alter the way it's shaped? Shape Shift.

 

Why is this hard?

 

Moreover you'd be changing into a 100kg fish.

 

No; you won't. You'll be changing into a 100kg man who his now shaped like a fish. A 100 kg fish can swim, breathe water, and has long-term memory issues. A man-- well, it varies.

 

 

That is the same as a MF into a 160 point form, where you get the shape for free, and it works against everything but mind reading, plus 160 points of powers AND any size change you want for free.

 

Why is it that everyone sees this, and understands it, but so many folks are having a really difficult time with the idea that Shape Shift is not supposed to do this in the first place? It simply let's you change your shape, period. You want to do something else? Buy more stuff, or different stuff, to go along with it. Want to have a completely different form, through and through? Multiform. New form, new sheet-- whole different beastie from top to bottom.

 

 

 

Now never mind if SS 'works', it costs too much.

 

SS costs too much to do the job of multiform, yes. It works fine for just shifting your shape.

 

Want to change into ANYTHING? Another 20 points. Bargain. 52 points for anything is good. Mind you it is not 'anything' is it?

 

Right you are. It's not 'anything.' It's 'any shape.'

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That statement should be printed in giant letters on page one of the book. Just because it says Energy Blast does not mean it has anything to do with Energy. and just because it says Shapeshift does not mean you can turn into a fish with it.

 

But that assumes language has no meaning but what is intended by the speaker/writer... which is bollocks. Meaning resides with the receiver. It is a mistake... in the toolkit era of Hero... to continue using the legacy name "energy blast" just as it is a mistake to call a power which mechanically "fools the senses" shape shift.

 

In the old days of Champions (4th Ed and previous) calling something Energy Blast and then saying, "but sometimes it can do physical damage if you want" made sense, because it was a defining genre power that could have different interpretations. The more toolkit/system Hero has become, it should move away from confusing language. Just because an author says, "Ignore what you think "big" normally means... when I use it in my game system, I really mean "small" so you better agree," does not mean that is a good decision or wise game design. If this power had been called "Glamour" or "Sense Foolery" with a note to say, "This is one way to simulate shape shifting" I'd be more ok with that... but to call it shape shift when it doesn't do that... just not good game design.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Form and function: the wisdom is that form must follow function: no matter how impressive the form it is useless if it is incapable of the function that is its purpose. Shapeshift subverts this to a large extent: it is a triumph of form over function. I am man, no, I am orange.

 

Am I orange? Well perception is everything. If I find something that repsonds in every way I can test or measure it to the perameters of an orange, then an orange it is, to me at least, but the observer changes the thing observed and there is at least one observer that knows otherwise: the orange itself.

 

Arguably the greatest barrier to a perfect shapechange is the shapechanger itself, the terrible self knowledge that whatever form it currently takes its function is otherwise, and so its form is subverted. It may appear as an orange but it is, in fact, a shapeshifter.

 

Only in giving oneself entirely to a new form can you become that new form and overvome the limitations of self awareness of function.

 

I hope this has been of assistance to you all in resolving this fascinating debate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Form and function: the wisdom is that form must follow function: no matter how impressive the form it is useless if it is incapable of the function that is its purpose. Shapeshift subverts this to a large extent: it is a triumph of form over function. I am man, no, I am orange.

 

Am I orange? Well perception is everything. If I find something that repsonds in every way I can test or measure it to the perameters of an orange, then an orange it is, to me at least, but the observer changes the thing observed and there is at least one observer that knows otherwise: the orange itself.

 

Arguably the greatest barrier to a perfect shapechange is the shapechanger itself, the terrible self knowledge that whatever form it currently takes its function is otherwise, and so its form is subverted. It may appear as an orange but it is, in fact, a shapeshifter.

 

Only in giving oneself entirely to a new form can you become that new form and overvome the limitations of self awareness of function.

 

I hope this has been of assistance to you all in resolving this fascinating debate.

Form may follow Function but we can't forget Style over Substance either.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Form may follow Function but we can't forget Style over Substance either.

 

Cyberpunk.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Apologies in advance......

 

I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt' date=' and assuming you meant 'change into another shape' instead of 'form.' The two are radically different:[/quote']

 

Duke, you've known me long enough not to give me the benefit of the doubt on anything

 

You are getting muddled by that Hero mojo. Just because they call it MultiForm doesn't mean they looked up a definition beforehand. I mean, they didn't for anything else

 

From dictionary.com :

 

entries found for form.

form ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôrm)

n.

 

The shape and structure of an object.

The body or outward appearance of a person or an animal considered separately from the face or head; figure.

 

Oh, and to correct my original post, we normally have sight and four other senses, not three as previously advertised

 

A little girl's doll is baby-shaped' date=' but only the most die-hard of nit-pickers would expect that it should Detect as a baby. [/quote']

 

You called?

 

Shape Shift (from what I glean of G-A explaining re-FRED's changes)' date=' despite all qualms with pricing vs utility, does do exactly what the name implies: it let's you get another shape. [/quote']

 

Well what it does it let you appear to be another shape with an annoying little glitch-fix to allow you to fit through small gaps. The glitch fix is this: if you have SS:touch you can change your shape as far as your environment is concerned (only they don't put it like that). SS: touch has plenty else to do thank you. It all smacks of someone(Hi, Steve ) having this really cool idea about the game mechanics behind shapeshift, writing it out, having it pointed out that it wouldn't do what it said on the tin and cobbling together something to make it damn well work, only doing so in an upsetting and counterintuitive way because he couldn't damn well let go of the idea that everything had to be defined in terms of senses.

 

IMO, of course

 

No one would ever doubt that these characters would be, to their very fiber, a woman, and alien, and a lamp. They will be shaped right, formed right, and Detect as in every possible way. This _must_ be true, as the very basis of the bulk of this SS discussion is how SS will not let you get completely away from the characteristics of that base form! Want a new base form? Make a new character. Want to have it be the same character? Multiform lets you do just that.

 

Want to keep the same base form but alter the way it's shaped? Shape Shift.

 

Why is this hard?

 

The idea is not hard. The way we are forced to apply the idea makes it hard. that's the problem (see above)

 

No; you won't. You'll be changing into a 100kg man who his now shaped like a fish. A 100 kg fish can swim' date=' breathe water, and has long-term memory issues. A man-- well, it varies.[/quote']

 

You'll be changing into a 100kg fish as far as the observer is concerned, if you've done it right. I don't like arguing semantics, but...haha hahaha hahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahah bwahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha aaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahah....oh my.....what was I saying?

 

Why is it that everyone sees this' date=' and understands it, but so many folks are having a really difficult time with the idea that Shape Shift is not supposed to do this in the first place? [/quote']

 

Because of the unnecessarily convoluted way the power has been written up in the book?

 

SS costs too much to do the job of multiform' date=' yes. It works fine for just shifting your shape.[/quote']

 

It might work fine but it costs too much.

 

I mean, let's face it, you could pay 52 points to be able to turn into the leader of the freeworld, apparently, with shapeshift, or actually change into him with multiform for about, what, 2 points? Possibly even a negaivenumber: I haven't statted George out.

 

 

Right you are. It's not 'anything.' It's 'any shape.'

 

No it is not 'any shape': you can not flatten yourself out like a T-1000, you can not change your 6 foot human into a 10 foot ladder: there are enormous practical difficulties with that 'any' bit.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

But that assumes language has no meaning but what is intended by the speaker/writer... which is bollocks. Meaning resides with the receiver. It is a mistake... in the toolkit era of Hero... to continue using the legacy name "energy blast" just as it is a mistake to call a power which mechanically "fools the senses" shape shift.

Language has no meaning only to those who don't understand it. You propose the names Energy Blast and Shape Shift be changed. Do you also suggest we call what we now call an "atom" to be called something different? The word atom means "indivisible" and is the reason why we use it to describe those things we find on the periodic table. Yet an atom isn't indivisible, as it's not only made up of tinyer parts, but we've been splitting them for decades. By your reasoning, we should be calling them something else.

 

in the old days of Champions (4th Ed and previous) calling something Energy Blast and then saying, "but sometimes it can do physical damage if you want" made sense, because it was a defining genre power that could have different interpretations. The more toolkit/system Hero has become, it should move away from confusing language. Just because an author says, "Ignore what you think "big" normally means... when I use it in my game system, I really mean "small" so you better agree," does not mean that is a good decision or wise game design. If this power had been called "Glamour" or "Sense Foolery" with a note to say, "This is one way to simulate shape shifting" I'd be more ok with that... but to call it shape shift when it doesn't do that... just not good game design.

 

Of course, what's in a name? I can bet you anything that there is no name that would satisfy everyone. It's called what it is for the same reason why a number of other game mechanics are called what they are. We can't go around naming things with generic lables or no one's gonna want to play the game. And that's what this is, a game. Not a programming language, a secret code or a technical journal. We use common terms (well, common in the realm of RPGs) that allow everyone to have an easier time understanding what each game mechanic does.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

No it is not 'any shape': you can not flatten yourself out like a T-1000' date=' you can not change your 6 foot human into a 10 foot ladder: there are enormous practical difficulties with that 'any' bit. [/quote']

Why not?

If someone said they were going to use their Any Shape Shapeshift to turn into a large section of properly patterned marble floortile to hide in the throne room of the king and listen in on a days happenings I would most certainly allow for it. They would be one large 100kg floor tile, but still an acceptable concept.

 

What other power would allow you to disguise yourself this way? Images perhaps, but Images still leaves you staning in the middle of the room, or off to the side just disguising yourself as a tile, people still have a chance to see through the Image. Shapeshift turns you into the massive floor tile - perfectly acceptable use of SS:Touch;Sight IMO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Oooh! About the T-1000 turning into the floor thing: How about Invisibility (the fringe effect is noticing something odd about the floor)?

 

Anyway, just giving another example of how to shapechange without buying Shape Shift.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Why not?

If someone said they were going to use their Any Shape Shapeshift to turn into a large section of properly patterned marble floortile to hide in the throne room of the king and listen in on a days happenings I would most certainly allow for it. They would be one large 100kg floor tile, but still an acceptable concept.

 

What other power would allow you to disguise yourself this way? Images perhaps, but Images still leaves you staning in the middle of the room, or off to the side just disguising yourself as a tile, people still have a chance to see through the Image. Shapeshift turns you into the massive floor tile - perfectly acceptable use of SS:Touch;Sight IMO.

 

Well, if you can not vary your size by more than 10%, the maximum diameter of a pool you could spread into would be about 2 metres, assuming you started out at about 6 foot. That would be a cylinder nearly 8 cm thick, and that contravenes the plus or minus 10% on thickness (which is waveable: fine, but if we are getting into the whole waving thing to make it work as stated...).

 

Someone is going to notice an 8cm thick 2m radius floor tile methinks.

 

Same logic applies to my other example: you could become a 6 foot seven step ladder but not a 10 foot step ladder. hell all of this is reasonably easy to get round - you buy stretching (a poorly costed power in its own right ) and you can cover a bigger area, or some size altering power. Point is is is not doable no matter how much you spend on shapeshift...so it is not 'any' shape/form/image

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Oooh! About the T-1000 turning into the floor thing: How about Invisibility (the fringe effect is noticing something odd about the floor)?

 

Anyway, just giving another example of how to shapechange without buying Shape Shift.

 

I quite like this idea. I've often thought that invisibility and shapeshift (as constructed now) could be combined into a single power: what you are making the senses 'think' they perceive is nothing....

 

Once more though, if VPP MF is allowed, you can change shape freely.

 

One more comparison:

 

You can buy SS for 67 points to cover all (usual) senses, imitation, cellular, makeover and 'any' shape. 0 END on that and persistent to make it truly liek multiform, so we would be spending 134 points.

 

OK, we ned a VPP. Control cost as follow: half phase to change powers, no skill roll. Single power (multiform) let us assume that is incredibly useful and only worth -1/2. So+1.5 and -0.5. That allows you a 72 point pool to spend on multipowers, which would allow you an unlimited number of 360 point forms that fool ALL senses (you ARE the thing) and allow free change of powers.

 

Someone, somewhere, tell me this has been thought through properly?

[LoresLost]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Okay, I Read through this again I stand by what I had said earlier on how I would modify the power with a few exceptions.

 

The sidebar pg 212 of the 5ER states the game differences between multiform and shape shift. In that statement of difference it states:

Shape shift allows a character to change his form, but not his powers or abilities.

On page 216 of the 5ER is the description of shape shift, in that description is the word “perceive†which is the word that gives the present definition all the issues and baggage. I will layout my present understanding of the power and the issues I have with the power.

 

Let me state that I understand intent of the power is that you have the apparent shape of an object, not the necessary ability to function as the object. For the ability to become a truly functional object you need to use multiform. I agree with the desired goal of shape shift, but I have implementation issues.

 

The power is listed as a “Standard Power/Body Affecting Powerâ€. I am okay with that and I see why. But the description of Shape Shift by sense group makes thing very muddled. This is an obvious attempt to align shape shift with enhanced senses and images. This in and of itself makes sense but I find the specific reasoning flawed within some groups. Shape Shift sight group, by itself, allows for an impenetrable image/disguise which is now an absolute, which is not with in the meta-game normal scheme. Also shape shift sight by itself acts as images with out perception rolls. This is not correct and can allow munchkin abilities (20 points for perfect disguise and improved hiding.)

 

The touch group’s second bullet point in the 5ER allows for “the classic meaning of shape shiftâ€. If this is so then how come it is not the primary cost (touch is not a targeting sense in most cases means it cost). Rubber boy has more ability for 15 – 25 points of shape shift touch then 25 points of stretching and more utility of master of disguise with 30 points of sight based shape shift. (Not that this is a bad thing).

 

Also forms created by touch Shape Shift could have utility with out other powers. 25 points touch shape shift should allow Rubber Boy to form himself into a large flat surface when falling and slow his fall or even glide. This common sense issue has problems by the rules, which could be fixed in the rules by a small VPP with a power skill roll built in (leap, glide, running and swimming multi-power might work as well). This VPP would give you the ability to glide, bounce, improved swimming but not fly or breath water (for forms that follow function logic).

 

Then you have the complex reality issue, sense affecting powers such as images don’t have this issue, Shape shift, as a body affecting power, does have this from a logical point of view. If touch shape shift allows you to change form physically (which it does by the rules) and your physical form determines how you are perceived by sight, active and passive sonar (which it does in real life) then shape shift touch acts in part as shape shift sight and hearing LOGICALLY and scientifically but not by the rules as they are written. This is a disconnect from real life as well as ease of use and utility.

 

 

A Quick summary of what I think are the issues with Shape Shift to close. Shape shift was altered in the Fifth edition to fixed an overlap with multiform. The problem is now it in part overlaps with images (a true sense effecting power). I feel that the cost structure is out of whack for the utility (as so many other have said already). That all said there is a place for shape shift power with it’s under lying goal of form altering power that does not alter Characteristics or abilities. I just have some implementation issues with the current Shape shift.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Am I on everyone's ignore list? You don't have to agree with me, but if I directly answer a question or address a particular issue, why does it keep coming up as if you can't even hear me?

 

Well what it does it let you appear to be another shape with an annoying little glitch-fix to allow you to fit through small gaps. The glitch fix is this: if you have SS:touch you can change your shape as far as your environment is concerned (only they don't put it like that). SS: touch has plenty else to do thank you. It all smacks of someone(Hi, Steve ) having this really cool idea about the game mechanics behind shapeshift, writing it out, having it pointed out that it wouldn't do what it said on the tin and cobbling together something to make it damn well work, only doing so in an upsetting and counterintuitive way because he couldn't damn well let go of the idea that everything had to be defined in terms of senses.

....

Because of the unnecessarily convoluted way the power has been written up in the book?

Right! This is exactly what I've been saying! SS is not a sense-affecting power. It is a Body Affecting power. Defining it by sense groups is almost as bad an idea as defining other powers that way.

 

What is an Energy Blast had to be defined by the senses it affects? Well, you can see fire, you can hear fire, and you can feel fire, so a Fire EB has to be bought to affect Sight, Hearing, and Touch (oh, and probably smell, too). Then we just handwave the part about doing damage to the target.

 

That's exactly the approach Steve used here. You can see an orange, you can smell an orange, you can touch an orange. Therefore, you buy Shapeshift: Orange to affect Sight, Smell, and Touch. Then we just handwave the part about actually changing shape.

 

And yes, SS *does* actually change your shape. It's not "fooling" any senses. You sense a different shape, because there actually is a different shape.

 

But why am I bothering to write this? No one seems to be reading my posts on this thread at all?

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Am I on everyone's ignore list? You don't have to agree with me, but if I directly answer a question or address a particular issue, why does it keep coming up as if you can't even hear me?

 

 

Right! This is exactly what I've been saying! SS is not a sense-affecting power. It is a Body Affecting power. Defining it by sense groups is almost as bad an idea as defining other powers that way.

 

What is an Energy Blast had to be defined by the senses it affects? Well, you can see fire, you can hear fire, and you can feel fire, so a Fire EB has to be bought to affect Sight, Hearing, and Touch (oh, and probably smell, too). Then we just handwave the part about doing damage to the target.

 

That's exactly the approach Steve used here. You can see an orange, you can smell an orange, you can touch an orange. Therefore, you buy Shapeshift: Orange to affect Sight, Smell, and Touch. Then we just handwave the part about actually changing shape.

 

And yes, SS *does* actually change your shape. It's not "fooling" any senses. You sense a different shape, because there actually is a different shape.

 

But why am I bothering to write this? No one seems to be reading my posts on this thread at all?

 

 

Did you guys hear anything?

 

I thought someone said something.

 

Anyway,

Here is what I think:

 

SS is not a sense-affecting power. It is a Body Affecting power. Defining it by sense groups is almost as bad an idea as defining other powers that way.

 

What is an Energy Blast had to be defined by the senses it affects? Well, you can see fire, you can hear fire, and you can feel fire, so a Fire EB has to be bought to affect Sight, Hearing, and Touch (oh, and probably smell, too). Then we just handwave the part about doing damage to the target.

 

That's exactly the approach Steve used here. You can see an orange, you can smell an orange, you can touch an orange. Therefore, you buy Shapeshift: Orange to affect Sight, Smell, and Touch. Then we just handwave the part about actually changing shape.

 

And yes, SS *does* actually change your shape. It's not "fooling" any senses. You sense a different shape, because there actually is a different shape.

 

I'm surprised no one posted something like this before.

 

 

KA.

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Just kidding Phil,

 

and I actually do agree with what you posted.

KA.

[nexus]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

*sneaks in quietly*

 

I...actually like shapeshift defined by sense groups.

 

*sneaks back out*

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Am I on everyone's ignore list? You don't have to agree with me' date=' but if I directly answer a question or address a particular issue, why does it keep coming up as if you can't even hear me? [/quote']

I'm not ignoring you - you and I are argueing the same side of the fence, so I'm standing next to you shouting the same thing.

 

You're absolutely correct in your post BTW.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

*sneaks in quietly*

 

I...actually like shapeshift defined by sense groups.

 

*sneaks back out*

AHA!!

 

I knew we'd start to draw them out, see - there are people who like SS as it is! proof it's not broken.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Compare that to' date=' say, invisiblity, another 'perfect sense fooling power'. Even if there are one or two opponents who can detect you they can not usefully communicate that to the others - OK it scuppers your attempt to sneak past, but you retain all your combat bonuses against those who can not 'see' you. Moreover, although invisibility is theoretically more expensive, you need to buy far less to make it usefu: most people only target with sight so all you need to have a useful power is INVIS: SIGHT GROUP, so the actual cost is not that high at all, even if you do take the 'no fringe' adder.[/quote']

 

Well put - even if you did troll this thread - 168 posts already! Rep will probably get to you some time after the New Year....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I think SS should have been divorced from the Senses Nomenclature and it's own terms brought in - sure it's another set of words to add to the game, but the effect is the same:

 

Shapeshift:

Shape

Appearance

Scent/Taste

Mental Signature

Radio/Power Signature

Sound/Voice

 

 

Good practical advice - the kind of thing that keeps me coming back to the boards...rep on its way - when I can obviously.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

* oozes through the cracks *

 

Actually, my characters always used Shape Shift to fool somebody into thinking they're somebody else. Most shapeshifters have to remain somewhat human.

 

Shrinking, Desolid, Stretching and Extra Limbs and other powers are used to make him more "liquid". And usually, it's fairly cheap if you put into a VPP or Multipower.

 

* oozes down the drain *

[Brainstorm]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

As subtle as it seems, all of the backlash against Shapeshifting seems to be rooted in the premature mention of Sense Groups in the Power description. If the first sentence of the text simply read, "A character with Shape Shift can change his form without altering his powers or other abilities," I suspect reader reaction would have been different. After all, it seems to me that the "this is just a kind of illusion" interpretation is wholly bogus. As I read it, Shape Shift vs. Sight really does enable users to assume a different physiological configurations. Likewise Shape Shift vs. Touch really does enable users to assume different surface textures. It simply reads like an illusion to some people because in the Hero system, "shape" is purely a function of appearance rather than a source of Powers.

 

This is, of course, as it should be. All sorts of exploitation issues would arise if Shapeshift became a special sort of VPP on top of having cosmetic results. Letting someone manifest skin that is smooth and hard to the touch makes sense for this power, but letting them get any level of Armor for free would be just plain wrong. Likewise, letting a humanoid assume an angelic form is fine for Shapeshift, but letting him get Flying as a bonus would also be ill-advised. Factor in Swimming, Density Increase, Stretching, Shrinking, Growth, Leaping, Gliding, Clinging, not to mention a wide variety of attack forms and Life Support applications; and Shapeshift that was about more than perception becomes a sleazy way for degenerate players to acquire a potent VPP. Pricing it appropriately for all that would deprive the game of a Power appropriate for what Shapeshift actually does -- allow a change of shape without any change in capabilities.

 

Of course, this does not mean that characters cannot be built to manifest Powers through changing shape. It simply means that you have to pay for those other Powers instead of trying to slip them in for free through some sort of loophole. In effect, making Shapeshift a "vs. Sense Groups" sort of Power errs on the side of clarifying that no such loophole actually exists in the rules. Yet I do see it as an error insofar as it has given rise to this misinterpretation that it is merely an illusion. The Power clearly does describe real physiological changes -- it simply and appropriately constrains them to being cosmetic in nature. The evidence of this is in PER handling. While Imitation may be imperfect, a human-looking character who Shapeshifts into a werewolf-looking form actually has that appearance -- even the sharpest of observers will see nothing "fake" about lupine features because Shapeshifting vs. Sight actually causes pointed ears, long canines, and so on to manifest (unless it is deliberately defined with an illusory SFX.) Of course, getting enhanced hearing and a vicious bite requires paying for the appropriate Powers. Likewise including vs. Touch in the Shapeshifting does make a difference between skin/body hair that merely spoofs the appearance of thick fur or growing actual thick fur that feels right on contact.

 

Were I intent on addressing the problem, apart from revising the first sentence as suggested above, I would work on greater clarity in the sense groups themselves. For example, clarifying that the vs. Sight Group also applies to Radarsense, Sonar, and other remote shape-detecting senses would probably help players to understand the difference between Shapeshift and a self-only Images. In fact, it might be best to simply divorce Shapeshift from "Sense Groups" per se and instead simply divide it into "aspects" like configuration, sound, scent, texture, mind, and energy signature. Configuration would address Sight as well as methods of perception like Sonar or Radarsense. Taste, being rarely-used, could be folded along with Touch into "texture." Mind would apply to Mental Senses as well as certain Mental Powers with perceptual aspects (for example, Shapeshift would not help a character evade Telepathy or Mind Control, but it would make the individual "feel different" as a target for those Powers. With Imitation, it could also be used to make the exercise of such Powers "feel like" the work of a psychic other than the actual perpetrator.) Energy signature exists to cover stuff like the Radio Group. This last one I see as useful in sci-fi situations to distinguish a screen that emulates the energy signature of another craft/facility (Images) from hardware that produces all the same actual emissions (Shapeshift.)

 

Seperating Shapeshift from Sense Groups may seem unnecessarily complex at first glance, but it seems to me like it would be worth the effort. It goes beyond simply dispelling the myth that Shapeshift is another illusion without going so far as to create a loophole for freebie Powers that would disturb game balance. Right now I cannot find any clear ruling about the interaction of Shapeshift vs. Sight with Active Sonar or Radar. I would be inclined to argue strongly that it is applicable, but a rules lawyer could well make the a contrary case based on the fact that neither is part of the Sight Group. No doubt there are other ambiguities of this nature that could be resolved by breaking up Shapeshifting into "aspects" that dealt with manifestations of the Power itself independent of specific Sense Groups (although in some cases the correlation would remain extremely strong, as would be the case with the sound aspect and the Hearing Sense Group.) The end result might be a longer write-up for the Power, yet the additional length would not be wasteful since it would clear up existing ambiguities and do a better job conveying the fact that Shapeshift, while remaining purely cosmetic, may involve real physical change rather than mere illusions (and striking any illusory SFX presented as Shapeshift examples certainly would not hurt in pursuit of the same goal either.)

 

Regards,

Brainstorm

 

P.S. Holy crap! I guess I only read one page of this thread before I posted, and in the process overlooked some good comments and perhaps also seemed to steal an idea or two. Regarding the "moving through tiny openings" Desolid-esque aspect of Shapeshifting, my inclination would be to allow that only in cases where someone took vs. Sight along with "Any Shape" or at least defined a shape appropriate too such movement. This does fly in the face of the "it's always only cosmetic" rule, but it just seems too reasonable to disallow and no great threat to game balance. Still, barring an especially bizarre character, it is hard to imagine fitting "amorphous blob" into a Limited Group of shapes. However, I suppose those with serpentine or worm-like forms could move through openings a great deal smaller than are needed to accomodate a typical humanoid. Certainly vocal mimics or even face shifters should be unable to ooze in such a way, but a character who can truly assume Any Shape should be able to move through small openings and a character able to assume specific non-humanoid shapes should still be able to fit through openings that would accomodate those specific shapes.

 

Also, for clarity's sake, here is a rehash of the scheme I proposed, which on more extensive review of the thread is similar to ghost-angel's suggestion. Really they do seems the same save for the my use of "texture" for a touch/taste fusion, leaving "scent" as its own Shapeshifting aspect, and blending shape/appearance into "configuration." I suppose I can see some logic in blending Taste with Smell, and it would seem odd to me to have Taste as its own aspect given how rarely Taste senses are actually used. I simply put it into "texture" because I envision "scent" as something that could be accomplished with simple glands or other chemical emitters, while the process of changing the taste of body parts seems more closely related to the types of changes required to create different tactile sensations.

 

Configuration -- physical shape and coloration

Texture -- properties of actual tissues/components/whatever

Sound -- voice and other emitted sounds

Scent -- smell

Mind -- "signature" applicable to Mental Powers

Energy -- "signature" applicable to Radio Sense Group

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well what it does it let you appear to be another shape with an annoying little glitch-fix to allow you to fit through small gaps. The glitch fix is this: if you have SS:touch you can change your shape as far as your environment is concerned (only they don't put it like that). SS: touch has plenty else to do thank you. It all smacks of someone(Hi, Steve ) having this really cool idea about the game mechanics behind shapeshift, writing it out, having it pointed out that it wouldn't do what it said on the tin and cobbling together something to make it damn well work, only doing so in an upsetting and counterintuitive way because he couldn't damn well let go of the idea that everything had to be defined in terms of senses.

 

IMO, of course

I guess I'm the guilty party. I had specific discussions with him about how Desolid shouldn't be used for the case of a "Protean Form". His answer was to use Shapeshift instead. Didn't realize I was simply moving a problem from one power to another. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Why not?

If someone said they were going to use their Any Shape Shapeshift to turn into a large section of properly patterned marble floortile to hide in the throne room of the king and listen in on a days happenings I would most certainly allow for it. They would be one large 100kg floor tile, but still an acceptable concept.

Because the rules don't allow for that. Per my discussions with Steve Long about "Protean Form", he put a limit as to how much you can re-arrange your mass with the Touch portion of Shapeshift. Once you go past that limit, you are then forced to use Desolid.

 

- Christopher Mullins