"Brick Trick"

[Duke Bushido]

Would one of you folks with Ultimate Brick be kind enough to answer a question for me?

 

One of my players last week was wondering if something was included as a 'brick trick,' mostly, I think, because it was one of his favorite schticks from our stable of villains:

 

Mind Control vs PRE, Requires a Reputation Roll or violent action?

 

In short, super-intimidation through the threat of super-violence.

 

Thanks for the time!

[Southern Cross]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I don't recall such an ability from The Ultimate Brick,but then I don't have it on me at the moment.

[Brainstorm]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Most of my supplements are at least 10 years old, but 5ER gives me the sense that Brick Tricks is one form of the Power Skill (a Skill all about showcasing superhuman abilities.) I'm not sure what "Mind Control vs PRE, Requires a Reputation Roll or violent action?" means, but the next line makes me think we're talking about getting bonuses to influence through displays of superhuman abilities. When it comes to Mind Control, I am inclined against allowing any such bonuses. Intimidating a subject should not make hypnosis/mesmerism easier, and in some cases it may create a negative modifier if the subject's attitude is shifted from neutral to hostile regarding the Mind Control user and his associates. I probably would not penalize for the distress itself, but certainly Mind Control is less likely to gain the cooperation of a hostile subject than a complete stranger. After all, the Effect Roll required is a direct reflection of how much the target would mind fulfilling requests/obeying commands issued in the exercise of Mind Control.

 

On the other hand, PRE attacks are perfectly suited to intimidation. Here the main concern is consistency. Before I'd ever heard of Brick Tricks or any other Power Skill variation, I would allow a stock +1d6 to PRE attacks whenever a superheroic character described a non-lame way of flaunting some Power in conjunction with the PRE attack. Taking a fresh look at the Presence Attack Modifiers Table, I see all sorts of potentially relevant bonuses, including one or two dice for an Interaction Skill success and as many as three dice for a violent action. I suppose the way I would handle it today would be to let someone make a Brick Tricks Skill Roll with the understanding that ther display of Power bonus would be lost on a failure but doubled (i.e. +2d6) for "success by half or more" (i.e. rolling half or less than the target.) As far as the violence bonus, that would depend on just how violent the actual Brick Trick was. Bending a lamppost in half is impressive, but such vandalism is barely violent at all. On the other hand, hurling a parked car into a crowd of bystanders might qualify for the +3d6 "Incredibly Violent" bonus, albeit with some serious negative consequences for characters with heroic reputations.

 

So, to sum things up, I do not see any constructive use for Brick Tricks/the Power Skill in conjunction with Mind Control. I do see how it could qualify as "Exhibiting a Power ..." for purposes of a PRE attack. In fact, since the Power Skill is all about such exhibitions, I could even see going from +1d6 to +2d6 for a really successful effort, with the condition that a failed Skill Roll would botch the exhibition and result in no display bonus at all. As for violence, I could not see granting more than the basic +1d6 for property destruction, and I imagine only villains would want to go for the higher violence bonuses by combining Extremely Violent or Incredibly Violent actions with their PRE attacks.

 

Regards,

Demonweed

[Helimar]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I believe he's more asking about a way to simulate a long lasting PRE attack, building it as Mind Control instead, based on fully cowing the target to the point where they will follow your orders for many phases if not minutes or hours in the case of normals. And FWIW I would give a +2d6 violence bonus for shredding a car or something in addition to the display of power (or call it an extreme display of power) for the purposes of intimidating normals, the implication is that he could easily do the same to them, or worse, and that kind of level of violence is not something a normal can get used to, unless your campaign has alot of active supers.

 

Helimar

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Mind control is not necessarily that long lasting, but I like the idea of constant intimidation meaning that a victim loses the will to resist. Can I suggest two fixes: the first, the ultimate kludge: cumulative mental transform linked to presence attacks: victim becomes so scared of the character he can not resist commands from him...

 

The second is a little subtler. Buy (say) +3d6 PRE attck and link an

EGO drain (or even an INT drain) to the PRE attack, with the limitation (+0) onlt v the person making the PRE attacks. In effect, over time, the victim loses the will to resist, and has to make EGO rolls to do so, and, of course, even before you get down to negative EGO, it might make resisting PRE attacks harder if the victim had a higher EGO than PRE. You'll need to buy the recovery rate down to once per day or so in order to make this work, but it only needs to be a small drain if the victim gets shouted at a lot

 

You might also want to limit the drain to allow an instant full recovery in some situations - an order is given that the victim can't obey or really won't and this gives them the backbone to throw off the terror.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I believe he's more asking about a way to simulate a long lasting PRE attack' date=' building it as Mind Control instead, based on fully cowing the target to the point where they will follow your orders for many phases if not minutes or hours in the case of normals.[/quote']

 

This is exactly correct.

 

One of the villains in my stable is a mid-level brick, but with a tendency toward wanton violence, needless carnage (he's got ego-related issues) and a reputation for extremely violent actions. This is the character that has that ability, and he has it more or less as written (with the 'RSR' variants as -0 Limitations). I hadn't used him in a while, but one of my co-GMs is working a plot around his escape from [he's been captured by a major 3rd party think tank for a couple of game years] and the ensuing trouble. He has always enjoyed the idea of the power since I first wrote him up, and was wondering if there was an 'officially endorsed' version that he might use to tweak up the dust-off.

 

As far as the Limitations go, the 'Attack vs PRE' Limitation (variant on 'Attack vs CON') was chosen for two purposes: first, it specifically models a fear- or intimidation-based power, and secondly in our campaigns (I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it seems important for this discussion) we have an additional Characteristic: PRE Defense ("Additional Presence, only for defending against Presence attacks") _and_ we use rules governing 'over exposure' to represent reduced (or sometimes increase) affects of Presence Attacks from familiar characters.

 

 

But thanks for the answers, folks. I reckon he's on his own!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Can I suggest two fixes: the first' date=' the ultimate kludge: cumulative mental transform linked to presence attacks:

 

No. No. Nonononononononononononononononononononononono!

 

Bad Sean! Bad Sean! Bad! For that, you just keep Madonna, okay?

 

Seriously--

You'd be amazed how far I'll go to avoid the 'quick fix trio.' I do use them, but only when some other model either doesn't work, or ends up so convoluted and warped as to make it an obvious work-around for the Trifecta of Cobble.

 

The second is a little subtler. Buy (say) +3d6 PRE attck and link an

EGO drain (or even an INT drain) to the PRE attack, with the limitation (+0) onlt v the person making the PRE attacks. In effect, over time, the victim loses the will to resist, and has to make EGO rolls to do so, and, of course, even before you get down to negative EGO, it might make resisting PRE attacks harder if the victim had a higher EGO than PRE. You'll need to buy the recovery rate down to once per day or so in order to make this work,

 

We've got an occult villain who uses a power similar to this. The problem with using it for the brick is the 'delayed effect' kick-in. That doesn't work well for the 'scared to death of the guy eating that bus!' type build for the brick, but it works fine as a mystic ensorcelement kind of thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

there's nothing in TUB regarding a power of that nature. But a gm should feel free to make a base PRE Attack last as long as they feel comfortable.

 

If a normal is afraid of a brick in one phase they don't suddenly become unafraid, the fear may kick in a survival instinct where the normal helps the intimidating brick as long as they think they can't run away.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Nothing in TUB.

 

A few commonts about the power concept though. If you build it as Mind Control, keep in mind what exactly you can do with it. If all you want to do is freeze someone in their tracks for a moment, buying extra PRE (perhaps with Costs END and Only To Cause Fear) will be much, much cheaper for the same effect.

 

A Mind Control "PRE Attack" could be fun though. Without the Single Command Limitation, you could scare people into doing nearly anything.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Mind Control vs PRE, Requires a Reputation Roll or violent action?

 

In short, super-intimidation through the threat of super-violence.

 

 

While there's nothing like this in the Ultimate Brick, it does sound like the sort of power that might be in Dark Champions as a "Super-Skill." I don't have the book handy to check, though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Who is to say how long a Presence Attack might affect the target (except, of course, for the system bits about how long they will not act, have half DCV, or whatever)? If you manage to do a really successful Pre Attack against someone, they may well be intimidated, awed, fearful, etc., of you for a long time after.

 

I try to incorporate that when I GM as much as I can manage. You might give some small reminders to you GM of incidents that might make NPCs wary of your character if you think it might influence the situation. Hey. Even buy positive Reputations at times!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Nothing in TUB.

 

A few commonts about the power concept though. If you build it as Mind Control, keep in mind what exactly you can do with it. If all you want to do is freeze someone in their tracks for a moment, buying extra PRE (perhaps with Costs END and Only To Cause Fear) will be much, much cheaper for the same effect.

 

A Mind Control "PRE Attack" could be fun though. Without the Single Command Limitation, you could scare people into doing nearly anything.

 

 

Right. But he uses it for more than just 'scared stiff.' He uses it much like any other mind control character would. It is simply that the idea is he has an ability to be so intimidating that the target will fall all over himself to avoid 'incurring his wrath.' Such as scaring a police officer so badly he will willingly go to work and plot out how to destroy secured evidence for the villain rather than make him angry.

 

That kind of thing. PRE attack just didn't quite fit the bill. Besides, I try not to let PRE have too much power, lest the entire game become 'I make a PRE attack and tell them to surrender' every time a confrontation comes up.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Mind Control will probably work just fine for what you want, if you want to link it to PRE I would put a Limitation: Only after successful PRE Attack.

 

But no, The Ultimate Brick has no such power listed within it's pages.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I dont recall anything in TuB about this, but it should be easy enough to construct.

 

However a character doing what they are told for fear of the mean baddie ripping them in half is just acting in their own best interests for continued survival. Writing that up as a Mind Control verges into the slippery slope of stat'ing out EVERYTHING. It's really more of an INTERACTION than a MIND CONTROL.

 

 

Assuming you discard that and want to do it anyway, then you might consider just linking a Mind Control to the characters PRE, which effectively requires them to make a full blown PRE attack to use the Mind Control at full force. You could even get really involuted and buy Extra Offensive Only PRE with a RSR: STR Roll to demonstrate that when the character uses their STR to do brickish things, they get more PRE for being Scary, and the scarier they are (indirectly based on how well they made their STR roll) the stronger their Mind Control.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Thanks for all the input, folks,

 

but let me clear this up a bit:

 

the power has been created. I created it for this character about ten years ago.

 

But as one of my co-GM's is wanting to use the character, he was wondering if there was an 'official' version, or something very near it, that he might borrow from to demonstrate a bit of character evolution since his last appearance.

 

As it stands,

 

the essentials of the orignal construct:

 

Mind Control: for the Mind Control

Based on PRE: a Limitation derived from 'Ego powers based on CON' and other such variations

Requires PRE Attack or Reputation Roll: A variant of 'Requires a Skill Roll' or even 'Activation.'

 

[Costs and values left out as they aren't essential for the discussion, or useful to anyone else's campaigns.]

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

A question about the build: Why is it based on PRE instead of EGO? Shouldn't it have a Limitation that allows the target to use EGO or PRE, whichever is higher (like a PRE attack)? I just don't see Timid Iron-Will Lad falling victim to this.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

BEcause even the most iron willed person can get the holy living crap scared out of him. One is desire; one is that dark animal part of your brain that will do anything to live.

 

 

For my money, that's why they are two different stats. If they were completely interchangeable, then there would be no need for the both of them.

 

beyond that, in simple mechanics, generalized:

Because, as I have always understood it, when you base Mind Control, or any other EGO power on something other than EGO-- or when you base a non-EGO power on EGO, it doesn't represent quite the same thing. Same results, etc, but it's a 'different' kind of power. Like EB: bullets and EB: Space Rays. And whatever it is based on is, I have believed, is essentially how it is delivered and how it affects the target.

 

The character in question is not a mentalist, not by any stretch of the imagination. He has no real way to handle his own mind, let alone that of others. His power is not based even a little bit on affecting a person's mental self or 'taking control' of them through strength of will, or even through breaking their will power.

 

It is based soley on appealing to that uncontrollable instinct to stay alive. He makes you believe, through action and a peek into his soul (a long stare that let's you look into the cold of his eyes), that there is no way in creation that you are going to live if you cross him. And getting dead isn't going to be as pleasant as you might hope it to be, either.

 

That's all. It's based completely on terror. All the willpower in the world will do one thing: it will keep you from shaking. It might even keep you rational, and keep you from running away. But it won't keep you from being scared. You'll be in control of yourself, but you'll be terrified.

 

I don't argue the validity of the ego/pre whichever is higher Limitation; I just didn't find it 'right' for the affect I was shooting towards.

 

 

And in game mechanics, relevant to our campaign:

We have three additional Characteristics that we have used for years, one of which is PRE Defense. It will help to mitigate such things as this. And I have house rules governing repeated exposure to the same characters and the effects that these encounters have on PRE Attacks.

 

With that in mind, in our campaigns, it's a damned rare thing when an EGO is higher than all applicable PRE-related defense. It would, essentially, have been not only a -0 for this character (though I made all his Lims -0 just to keep the power from getting out of hand in the future), it wouldn't have really done anyone any good against him. His EGO score ---

 

never mind. I might have a player or two 10-10 on the board. Suffice it to say that even should someone build a mentalist with absolutely no PRE Def, they aren't going to be unable to deal with him.

 

This character, when he appears, is more of a 'collateral damage' type character than a juggernaut. The general use of this power (and the players have all run across him in the past, so this is fairly safe) is "Go get me this!" and "give me that" and "stand out there between me and those freaks in the tights." Like a Presence Attack, but much harder to shake.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

PRE attacks are also defended by EGO though...

 

What advantage/limitation did you assign to the 'based on PRE' mind control and are there any defences or is it effectively NND?

 

I still stick by what I said earlier though: Take a 12d6 mind control, that averages 42 points of effect. Against Joee Normal that is PRE+30.

 

Then the breakout rolls start. Even if you are only shooting for PRE+10, and have 22 points of extra effect, there is an immediate breakout of 11-4=7 or less then 8- at the end of the turn, 9- after a minute, 10- after 5 minutes and over half the normals will have escaped by this time.

 

If you start with a 15 PRE, the same PRE+10 is only going to be 17 points over, or -3 on the roll, which has also gone up, so immediate breakout is (12-3)=9- then 10- at the end of the turn, by which time over half those effected are out.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but by no stretch of the imagination is it a 'long term' control based on PRE. The ONLY way you'll accomplish that is with another mechanic, like drain. Or trans.....maybe not.....

 

On that subject you say that the drain is a slower effect: not much - assuming the same points as the mind control example - 60 active - you can get a 6d6 EGO drain, which reduces EGO by 10 points a pop. OK it might take 2 attacks but then most non psi heroes will be obeying you for at least a couple of turns. Or hell, make it a 6d6 PRE drain only v the PRE attacker and make all of your future PRE attacks really bite. If you did this though I'd probably require that 'only v attacker' be an advantage as a negative PRE victim is usually pretty useless.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

PRE attacks are also defended by EGO though...

 

I know that the rules allow for this; I am not disagreeing with that statement. At our table, they are not. As mentioned, I've got systems for dealing with PRE Attacks already in place, some of them from before I was even full-time GM. We like what we've got as we are familiar with the rationale, and find it works better than simply trying to justify it against a 'similar but different' characteristic idea. Now if the rules allowed you to defend Mind Control with PRE as well, maybe we'd take another look at this (though most likely we'd drop one of the other characteristic).

 

What advantage/limitation did you assign to the 'based on PRE' mind control

 

-0. (post #17, third paragraph from the end)

 

are there any defences or is it effectively NND?

 

Actual PRE score, PRE Defense, and house rules governing how recurring encounters with the same character affect PRE and PRE Attacks. (posts #6, last paragraph; #17, throughout. Also the build 'based on PRE' indicates that the power is affects against PRE, indicating a higher PRE is more effective against it than a lower one. The Limitation 'requires PRE attack or Rep Roll' reinforces this--- oops. Wait. That last one, I might be thinking from House Rules rather than book rules. At any rate: Also somewhere on this board in another thread I detailed our House Rules on familiarity with a character and it's affect on PRE Attacks. These rules apply for this power, as it is based on PRE.)

 

I still stick by what I said earlier though: Take a 12d6 mind control, that averages 42 points of effect. Against Joee Normal that is PRE+30.

 

As I mentioned in post #12, our group doesn't work PRE is such a way as to make it 'free Mind Control.' It is good for shock tactics and stalling an opponent, or making him angry, or several other things, but it's not free mind control. If you roll good enough that they are terrified, you might end up with them cowed. You might end up with them surrendering. You might end up with them panicked, and shooting everything that moves. They might even fall out in a faint.

 

But they are not going to offer themselves up as human shields; they are not going to spend the next two days solving a problem for you and then hunting you up to give you the solution, etc. In our games, any affects from PRE Attack are immediately halved at the target's next phase, and halved again each phase after that.

 

Then the breakout rolls start.

 

One minor thing I should mention: we don't use the 'automatic breakout' on MC. It seems counter-intuitive to the power. If you've already scored a successful hit, the 'automatic breakout roll' on that phase can set up a series of 'I hit!'; 'No you didn't! Neener neener neener!' exchanges that keep your mentalist from enjoying the game. So no one gets a breakout roll until their next phase. We also do the 'regular' breakouts differently.

 

Even if you are only shooting for PRE+10, and have 22 points of extra effect, there is an immediate breakout of 11-4=7 or less then 8- at the end of the turn, 9- after a minute, 10- after 5 minutes and over half the normals will have escaped by this time.

 

Our normal breakout rolls occur only post-12. Other than your 'free' breakout roll (above), there is the post-12 roll. Any other roll during your phases is based on conditions and external circumstances, etc. This also made Mind Control much more threatening out of combat, which we felt was a bit lacking as presented. We play lower power levels than most other groups; we prefer it. The drawback is that _some_ powers have to be reworked a bit to make them useful at lower levels. While the 'average' Mind Control in our games lasts from 1 turn to 1 minute, the 'average' PRE Attack lasts one phase, maybe two.

 

I believe I've mentioned before that I don't usually critique 'book legal' or post our own constructs simply because the way our game evolved most of our stuff is unworkable for others. While the concepts might be useful, the construction / application probably won't be.

 

 

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but by no stretch of the imagination is it a 'long term' control based on PRE. The ONLY way you'll accomplish that is with another mechanic, like drain. Or trans.....maybe not.....

 

Again, consider that we don't play it the same.

 

On that subject you say that the drain is a slower effect: not much

 

No; not much. But it is slower. And that goes counter to the effect that this one character is trying to achieve: "Ooga-booga! You scared?"

"No. Not really. No, wait. I'm getting kind of wierded out. Yep. I'm worried. Okay, now I'm definately scared. AAAAHHHHH!"

 

A mechanically 'superior' construct with better, longer lasting effects and greater effectiveness, etc-- sure. But completely wrong for this single concept.

 

 

And on one other note, for all the folks who've been good enough to offer suggestions for other builds, etc;

 

let's keep in mind that this character is _not_ a mentalist; he's a brick. The power levels being reffered to are simply out of scale to his use of the power. In his case, the power is not called "domineering" or "puppet master" or "carcass rider." It is called "Bully." That's how he uses it. That's all it does.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I know that the rules allow for this; I am not disagreeing with that statement. At our table, they are not. As mentioned, I've got systems for dealing with PRE Attacks already in place, some of them from before I was even full-time GM. We like what we've got as we are familiar with the rationale, and find it works better than simply trying to justify it against a 'similar but different' characteristic idea. Now if the rules allowed you to defend Mind Control with PRE as well, maybe we'd take another look at this (though most likely we'd drop one of the other characteristic).

 

 

 

-0. (post #17, third paragraph from the end)

 

 

 

Actual PRE score, PRE Defense, and house rules governing how recurring encounters with the same character affect PRE and PRE Attacks. (posts #6, last paragraph; #17, throughout. Also the build 'based on PRE' indicates that the power is affects against PRE, indicating a higher PRE is more effective against it than a lower one. The Limitation 'requires PRE attack or Rep Roll' reinforces this--- oops. Wait. That last one, I might be thinking from House Rules rather than book rules. At any rate: Also somewhere on this board in another thread I detailed our House Rules on familiarity with a character and it's affect on PRE Attacks. These rules apply for this power, as it is based on PRE.)

 

 

 

As I mentioned in post #12, our group doesn't work PRE is such a way as to make it 'free Mind Control.' It is good for shock tactics and stalling an opponent, or making him angry, or several other things, but it's not free mind control. If you roll good enough that they are terrified, you might end up with them cowed. You might end up with them surrendering. You might end up with them panicked, and shooting everything that moves. They might even fall out in a faint.

 

But they are not going to offer themselves up as human shields; they are not going to spend the next two days solving a problem for you and then hunting you up to give you the solution, etc. In our games, any affects from PRE Attack are immediately halved at the target's next phase, and halved again each phase after that.

 

 

 

One minor thing I should mention: we don't use the 'automatic breakout' on MC. It seems counter-intuitive to the power. If you've already scored a successful hit, the 'automatic breakout roll' on that phase can set up a series of 'I hit!'; 'No you didn't! Neener neener neener!' exchanges that keep your mentalist from enjoying the game. So no one gets a breakout roll until their next phase. We also do the 'regular' breakouts differently.

 

 

 

Our normal breakout rolls occur only post-12. Other than your 'free' breakout roll (above), there is the post-12 roll. Any other roll during your phases is based on conditions and external circumstances, etc. This also made Mind Control much more threatening out of combat, which we felt was a bit lacking as presented. We play lower power levels than most other groups; we prefer it. The drawback is that _some_ powers have to be reworked a bit to make them useful at lower levels. While the 'average' Mind Control in our games lasts from 1 turn to 1 minute, the 'average' PRE Attack lasts one phase, maybe two.

 

I believe I've mentioned before that I don't usually critique 'book legal' or post our own constructs simply because the way our game evolved most of our stuff is unworkable for others. While the concepts might be useful, the construction / application probably won't be.

 

 

 

 

Again, consider that we don't play it the same.

 

 

 

No; not much. But it is slower. And that goes counter to the effect that this one character is trying to achieve: "Ooga-booga! You scared?"

"No. Not really. No, wait. I'm getting kind of wierded out. Yep. I'm worried. Okay, now I'm definately scared. AAAAHHHHH!"

 

A mechanically 'superior' construct with better, longer lasting effects and greater effectiveness, etc-- sure. But completely wrong for this single concept.

 

 

And on one other note, for all the folks who've been good enough to offer suggestions for other builds, etc;

 

let's keep in mind that this character is _not_ a mentalist; he's a brick. The power levels being reffered to are simply out of scale to his use of the power. In his case, the power is not called "domineering" or "puppet master" or "carcass rider." It is called "Bully." That's how he uses it. That's all it does.

 

Fairy Nuff

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

BEcause even the most iron willed person can get the holy living crap scared out of him. One is desire; one is that dark animal part of your brain that will do anything to live.

 

 

For my money, that's why they are two different stats. If they were completely interchangeable, then there would be no need for the both of them.

Scared doesn't necessarily mean dominated. The stats aren't completely interchangable (though both defend against against a PRE Attack, only PRE can make a PRE attack, and not amount of charisma will protect you from a mental onslaught or keep you from givin into your vices. A high EGO, though it won't keep you from being frightened beyond beliefe, will maintain your free will during such an experience. So you won't do what the big bad monster askes of you purely as a result of being scared (might do so becaue it seems like a good idea though).

 

I don't argue the validity of the ego/pre whichever is higher Limitation; I just didn't find it 'right' for the affect I was shooting towards.

Fair enough, but your arguments don't really support the reason why a strong willed person will be compelled to obey.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I still stick by what I said earlier though: Take a 12d6 mind control, that averages 42 points of effect. Against Joee Normal that is PRE+30.

 

Then the breakout rolls start. Even if you are only shooting for PRE+10, and have 22 points of extra effect, there is an immediate breakout of 11-4=7 or less then 8- at the end of the turn, 9- after a minute, 10- after 5 minutes and over half the normals will have escaped by this time.

 

If you start with a 15 PRE, the same PRE+10 is only going to be 17 points over, or -3 on the roll, which has also gone up, so immediate breakout is (12-3)=9- then 10- at the end of the turn, by which time over half those effected are out.

 

Um... 5 minutes is long term compared for the "just lasts he next Phase" effect of a PRE Attack. PRE Attacks don't have breakout rolls. You roll them, the target is affected, and then the target acts normally (if he's still standing or hasn't decided to run away). Also, Player Characters are immune to PRE Attacks.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Also' date=' Player Characters are immune to PRE Attacks.[/quote']

Er...they are?!?

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Er...they are?!?

 

Mmm... Well, after checking, it seems they aren't. I wonder where I got that... In any case, it's a good idea, as PC reactions shouldn't be so arbitrarily dictated by circumstances such as a PRE Attack. Perhaps it's just my method of doing things, but I'm sure I read that somehwere.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Um... 5 minutes is long term compared for the "just lasts he next Phase" effect of a PRE Attack. PRE Attacks don't have breakout rolls. You roll them' date=' the target is affected, and then the target acts normally (if he's still standing or hasn't decided to run away).[/quote']

Who says the target then acts, "normally?" The target may not still be technically subject to game mechanical effects such as being at half DCV, but that doesn't mean the target isn't still intimidated (or awed, inspired, whatever). There's nothing that says a Pre Attack cannot have long term psychological affects on a target. Just because it isn't spelled out in the rules doesn't mean it can't have an effect. That agent you spooked might just sh*t his pants every time he sees you and avoid you at all costs.