"Brick Trick"

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Who says the target then acts' date=' "normally?" The target may not still be technically subject to game mechanical effects such as being at half DCV, but that doesn't mean the target isn't still intimidated (or awed, inspired, whatever). There's nothing that says a Pre Attack cannot have long term psychological affects on a target. Just because it isn't spelled out in the rules doesn't mean it can't have an effect. That agent you spooked might just sh*t his pants every time he sees you and avoid you at all costs.[/quote']

 

Whatever other behavioral effects might linger, the game mechanical effects have a specific, listed duration. Anything else is just role-playing and playing in character.

 

Dr. Destroyer might do something to frighten your character, but the GM doesn't say from then on you must run in terror whenever he shows up. You the player make that decision.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Whatever other behavioral effects might linger, the game mechanical effects have a specific, listed duration. Anything else is just role-playing and playing in character.

 

Dr. Destroyer might do something to frighten your character, but the GM doesn't say from then on you must run in terror whenever he shows up. You the player make that decision.

...and there is nothing wrong with the GM saying you have a -1 OCV to hit Destroyer next time either (after describing that the sight of him makes you tremble slightly), is there? I don't know. I tend to roleplay these things into my characters by default. Stuff that might even qualify for Disadvantages, at least in the short term. Certainly I try to make my NPCs act like creatures with memories.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Fair enough' date=' but your arguments don't really support the reason why a strong willed person will be compelled to obey.[/quote']

 

We can keep backing this up until we end up with the 'all powers are one universal power called 'affect universe,' or we can decide what amount of granularity we wish to play with. In this case, that is where I put it.

 

Though if it needs further justification, even Superman has people for whom he fears. Strong willed or not, his friends are not invulnerable.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Um... 5 minutes is long term compared for the "just lasts he next Phase" effect of a PRE Attack. PRE Attacks don't have breakout rolls.

 

Thanks for noticing that

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

...and there is nothing wrong with the GM saying you have a -1 OCV to hit Destroyer next time either (after describing that the sight of him makes you tremble slightly)' date=' is there? I don't know. I tend to roleplay these things into my characters by default. Stuff that might even qualify for Disadvantages, at least in the short term. Certainly I try to make my NPCs act like creatures with memories.[/quote']

 

Wrong or not, I don't think I'd ever place a penalty on a character (NPC or PC) just because they are rightly frightened. If a PRE Attack is involved, that's one thing, but an aribtrary penalty (even a justified one) such as this isn't close to heroic. Heroic is facing your fear, and as far as I'm concerned, going up against Dr. D when you are obviously outclassed certainly qualifies. If anything, the character should receive an OCV bonus. Or just rule that any penalties gained from being scared are elimitated by the bonuses gained from being heroic, and just play.

 

But that's just me, and probably doesn't have much to do with this thread except for the frightened part.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

We can keep backing this up until we end up with the 'all powers are one universal power called 'affect universe,' or we can decide what amount of granularity we wish to play with. In this case, that is where I put it.

 

Though if it needs further justification, even Superman has people for whom he fears. Strong willed or not, his friends are not invulnerable.

 

True. I suppose I'll back up all the way and say my bottom line is that a heroic action is facing one's fears, and such action (as represented in fiction) rarely is penalized in effectiveness. However, the only thing that seperates a hero from everyone else is that choice. In the face of fear, everyone still has the free will the succumb to it or to overcome it, the hero choosing the latter and everyone else choosing the former.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

True. I suppose I'll back up all the way and say my bottom line is that a heroic action is facing one's fears' date=' and such action (as represented in fiction) rarely is penalized in effectiveness. However, the only thing that seperates a hero from everyone else is that choice. In the face of fear, everyone still has the free will the succumb to it or to overcome it, the hero choosing the latter and everyone else choosing the former.[/quote']

Yes. And everyone still has the creative license to overcome their problems in imaginative ways, even with the GM mucking with the little static game mechanic universe the players are all so comfortable with.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Yes. And everyone still has the creative license to overcome their problems in imaginative ways' date=' even with the GM mucking with the little static game mechanic universe the players are all so comfortable with. [/quote']

 

I haven't repped you in so long it seems... maybe I forgot one, for I can't rep you now. Time to have a rep party!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Time to have a rep party!

I suppose it's BYOR?

[Vanguard00]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I haven't repped you in so long it seems... maybe I forgot one' date=' for I can't rep you now. Time to have a rep party! [/quote']

LotR style, I hope. We all attend, you pass out all the rep. Right?

 

Right?

 

Hrm.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

LotR style' date=' I hope.[/quote']

Lord of the Rep-style?

[Vanguard00]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Lord of the Rep-style?

 

Nice one

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I haven't repped you in so long it seems... maybe I forgot one' date=' for I can't rep you now. Time to have a rep party! [/quote']

Thanks. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37596

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Lord of the Rep-style?

 

Nice one

Thanks...but it just hit me that, when said aloud, it's entirely too close to "reptile."

 

Which reminds me...

 

 

...where's zornwil?

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

okay---

 

back.

 

First,

I wanted to appologize to DR for what, on re-read, came off as more snarky than it was intended. I was a bit rushed at the time, and didn't have time to re-check for possible mis-understanding bait.

 

 

So here's the deal:

 

I've posted before that we use a concept of PRE Defense, etc.

 

I can't recall 5e right now, but in 1 and 2e (which we are essentially still playing), there are some clearly defined characteristics:

STR, DEX, CON, PD, ED, STUN, BODY, END.

 

The rest-- INT, EGO, PRE, COM, etc---

not so much.

 

The definition for these powers is more derived through inferrence. Considering the use of PRE is presence attacks, etc-- both to afflict and to defend---

 

it has always struck us that PRE is more than just how intimidating you are; it also represents that part of you that resists intimidation.

We use EGO as will power, etc, in cases of 'man this hurts but I must continue' or 'I force my will onto your mind with my power' ,etc.

 

But for that part of your willpower that is used to resist fear, we use PRE. It seemed more appropriate given the mechanic of PRE. Now if that mechanic has changed so that it is now exclusively for inflicting fright and terror and not for understanding, deconstructing, or resisting its source, then yes, EGO would be well suited.

 

We don't play it that way. We play it based on what I've said above. The addition of the PRE Def characteristic strengthens the justification of this build. Adding 'EGO can defend as well,' as I've stated before, is really a no-limit limitation, as even the mentalists in our campaign tend to have a higher combined PRE + PRE Def than they do EGO.

 

That is the level of granularity we chose for PRE. It is for this reason that the power is constructed as it is.

 

I've mentioned in other threads that I don't usually toss out our own builds to people outside our group, and this is part of why:

we don't play 5e. We don't play 4e. We play an older version, but one that has borrowed the things that worked best (for us) from each further addition. We have played together long enough that the majority of the 'issues' that a lot of players refer to finding have already been dealt with through House Rules or simple precedent. Our stuff more likely than not just won't work for someone else.

 

It's still HERO; it's just different. :thinking Well that doesn't make much sense, I suppose, but yer all clever folks You know what I'm trying to say.

 

It's also for this reason that I don't really believe in the concept of 'character portability' from one House to another. At least not without suitable revisions.

 

Again, DR, sincerest appologies if that all came out worse than intended.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Man, Duke! You're so...snarky!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Snark!

 

[Enforcer84]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Intimidate in TUB was built as +20 PRE offensive.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

True. I suppose I'll back up all the way and say my bottom line is that a heroic action is facing one's fears' date=' and such action (as represented in fiction) rarely is penalized in effectiveness. However, the only thing that seperates a hero from everyone else is that choice. In the face of fear, everyone still has the free will the succumb to it or to overcome it, the hero choosing the latter and everyone else choosing the former.[/quote']

"A fool acts without fear. A hero acts in spite of it."

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Um... 5 minutes is long term compared for the "just lasts he next Phase" effect of a PRE Attack. PRE Attacks don't have breakout rolls. You roll them' date=' the target is affected, and then the target acts normally (if he's still standing or hasn't decided to run away). Also, Player Characters are immune to PRE Attacks.[/quote']

 

I often think that we must have some real psychopath players in Hero. I mean, it is the only game I can think of where effects like mind control, unconsciousness, paralysis and so on tend to last, as a matter of course, for seconds.

 

Other games tend to have much longer base times for such things and just trust the players and GMs not to go on a killing spree whilst the other fella is incapacitated.

 

Sean 'only half in jest' Waters

[Rapier]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

Would one of you folks with Ultimate Brick be kind enough to answer a question for me?

 

One of my players last week was wondering if something was included as a 'brick trick,' mostly, I think, because it was one of his favorite schticks from our stable of villains:

 

Mind Control vs PRE, Requires a Reputation Roll or violent action?

 

In short, super-intimidation through the threat of super-violence.

 

Thanks for the time!

 

No need to resort to MInd Control. I nice large fat PRE will handle most of those situations. Even for long lasting effects it can work:

 

Mug draws down on the Brick. Brick grabs the gun and snaps it in two (PRE attack), "Don't EVER draw a gun on me again." Chances are yon Mug will never EVER draw another gun on the brick. A little self interest backed up by a mondo PRE Attack. I mean, after all, that kind of feat you are talking isn't going to be used to make someone squawk like a chicken, or go and get you an ice cream cone.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I often think that we must have some real psychopath players in Hero. I mean, it is the only game I can think of where effects like mind control, unconsciousness, paralysis and so on tend to last, as a matter of course, for seconds.

 

Other games tend to have much longer base times for such things and just trust the players and GMs not to go on a killing spree whilst the other fella is incapacitated.

 

Indeed.

 

I've felt for quite some time that there is an over-emphasis on combat and combat effectiveness in this game. I don't mind that too much, as it is easy enough to work around, but there are things that do tend to drive it home once in a while.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

No need to resort to MInd Control. I nice large fat PRE will handle most of those situations. Even for long lasting effects it can work:

 

Mug draws down on the Brick. Brick grabs the gun and snaps it in two (PRE attack), "Don't EVER draw a gun on me again." Chances are yon Mug will never EVER draw another gun on the brick. A little self interest backed up by a mondo PRE Attack. I mean, after all, that kind of feat you are talking isn't going to be used to make someone squawk like a chicken, or go and get you an ice cream cone.

 

All very valid points, of course.

 

As I was--uneffectively-- trying to express to Dust Raven, our group uses PRE 'differently' than the rules stipulate. PRE is more or less to unsettle or discomfort or even calm--- it is a subtle effect that your presence offers, while a PRE Attack is essentially 'shock the crap out of somebody for a second or two' and then nothing. PRE, used defensively, is simply your ability to, for reasons from 'over analyis' to 'disbelief' to 'simple psychosis' simply not accept the PRE Attack (or overwhelming PRE of another character) as being as impressive as it is.

 

 

And the biggest reason that we've done this is, as you pointed out above, with other distinctions, all Mind Controls can be effectively replaced with high PRE builds.

 

It is also why we don't let EGO defend against PRE. We allow an EGO roll to act counter to the results of a PRE attack (-1 per 'level' of sucess on PRE Attack results), but even then, you are not unaffected: you are still scared / shocked / spooked; you are simply using your will power to stand your ground.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

I often think that we must have some real psychopath players in Hero. I mean, it is the only game I can think of where effects like mind control, unconsciousness, paralysis and so on tend to last, as a matter of course, for seconds.

 

Other games tend to have much longer base times for such things and just trust the players and GMs not to go on a killing spree whilst the other fella is incapacitated.

 

Sean 'only half in jest' Waters

 

Well, you're quite right. Some of those "other games" try to simulate their source material very accurately, and their source material has people holding sway over others for minutes, hours and days (or more) at a time. But also in the source material, the people with these powers act according to the script, with the excuse of being overconfident, sadistic or expressly foolish to explain why they don't just take over the world in 10 days.

 

Gamers are different. We think of LOTS of uses for these powers, and most of them are far more efficient than anything you'd find in the source material.

[Dust Raven]

Re: "Brick Trick"

 

No need to resort to MInd Control. I nice large fat PRE will handle most of those situations. Even for long lasting effects it can work:

 

Mug draws down on the Brick. Brick grabs the gun and snaps it in two (PRE attack), "Don't EVER draw a gun on me again." Chances are yon Mug will never EVER draw another gun on the brick.

 

Or never draw a gun on him while within arms reach.