Hit Locations

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Another possibility is just a Pistols Trick skill.

 

In any case, if this is a situation where the Zombie has both damage reduction and Vulnerability, I think the penalty for the head shot is well within reason. I, personally, have never played someone good with a gun with at least something to compensate penalty to skill rolls.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Putting a zombie at DCV 0 is silly. A HEX has a DCV of 3! Do the zombies actually move into the path of attacks?

If a character is Climbing (sometimes), Entangled, or Knocked Out, they're listed as being at 0 DCV, even though they're normal sized (and thus smaller than a hex) because they're incapable of dodging or taking any kind of defensive actions. If the zombies never dodge or take defensive actions, I can see a 0 DCV being reasonable.

[Blue]

Re: Hit Locations

 

In a superheroic campaign, -8 is fine. I don't want heroes and villains routinely one-shotting their their targets into unconsciousness.

 

In a zombie game, the number should be lower. After all, it's a convention of the genre. I'd go -4 to the head.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Just as a reminder, simply having penalty skill levels doesn't guarantee a head-shot. You still have to hit the target, first. That seems to have gotten lost in this thread.

 

I understand that, but it doesn’t change anything. You’re still pretty much doubling the effectiveness of any attack, for a very small number of points. And adding more combat effectiveness to OCV, which didn’t really need it.

 

In a non-hit location game, just kicking up your OCV hits a point of diminishing returns. Once you’re two or three points over the campaign’s DCV average, adding more helps you less and less.

 

With hit locations, once you can be sure of hitting things, you start multiplying your damage and avoiding armor.

 

Would you allow a Find Weakness variant that doubled all damage after armor and allowed you to completely bypass any armor with an activation roll? Oh, and it doesn’t have a roll to work, and it doesn’t take an action to use?

 

Oh, and the single attack version costs 16 points, one point more than a 12- Find Weakness on a single attack. The All Attacks version is a bargain, though, at 24 points, it’s six points cheaper than an 11- Find Weakness.

 

---

“The Deathclaw takes 64 points of damage to the groin. The Deathclaw shakes and growls.â€

[Labrat]

Re: Hit Locations

 

When I ran 'Dead No More' over on yahoogroups a few years ago, I put a Penalty Skill Level bonus (+3) to Called Shots in the Zombie Survivalist Package Deal. This can be dialed up or sold off appropriate to character type. I also added Lightsleep, +1 PER Roll to Hearing (you usually hear zombies first), Survival: Urban and WF:Common Firearms to reflect what skills surviving a zombie holocaust would necessitate.

 

My two cents, hope it helps.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Actually G-A' date=' if the target is surprised, the penalties for called shots are halved. It's part of the modifiers you get.[/quote']

No kidding, pg415 right there .. heh, my sniper just got better, time to notify my GM....

 

As for the Off Topic comment - since every Game calls for different methodologies of execution, when Zombies are mentioned we look at the System from a different angle than when we look at it from a Supers angle or even a Fantasy angle.

 

As for a -8 to hit the head, that is in combat. As noted, when a target is surprised (and all targets out of combat are surprised) the modifier is -4. Which is reasonable.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Would you allow a Find Weakness variant that doubled all damage after armor and allowed you to completely bypass any armor with an activation roll? Oh' date=' and it doesn’t have a roll to work, [b']and[/b] it doesn’t take an action to use?

Find Weakness only halves the effect of Armor. So #1 and #3 of this contradict each other. In a heroic level campaign, Find Weakness is pointless. Also, it takes half a phase to use.

 

So if a player wanted to waste 10 points on a Find Weakness that wastes half a phase and reduced the enemies Reistance Defense by one or two points, I would let them but point out the impracticality of it. It is, after all, 7% of their starting character points.

[Kirby]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I understand that' date=' but it doesn’t change anything. You’re still pretty much doubling the effectiveness of any attack, for a very small number of points. And adding more combat effectiveness to OCV, which didn’t really need it.[/quote']

Well, yes it does change things. You actually have to HIT the target before you can HURT the target. Having an 8 OCV with 8 PSLs doesn't make it easier to hit a 9 DCV. Now, chances are that someone with an 8 OCV won't have 8 PSLs; I've never seen that. In fact, in every game I've been in, I've yet to see anyone buy more than 4 levels to offset hit locations.

 

I don't really get your "adding more combat effectiveness to OCV, which didn’t really need it" comment. You make it sound like OCV ruins a game.

 

 

With hit locations' date=' once you can be sure of hitting things, you start multiplying your damage and avoiding armor.[/quote']

Simply because you hit something, doesn't mean you bypass armor (heck, there's even a current thread about armor with activation rolls going on). And if you're referring to "armor" as in vests and helmets, then if you shoot w/called shot where the armor isn't (places other than head, chest and stomach), then you're doing either the same amount of damage (x1 for thigh and shoulders) or less (x 1/2 for hands, arms, legs, and feet).

 

If Han Solo targets Boba Fett in the head, Boba Fett's armor still applies.

 

Would you allow a Find Weakness variant that doubled all damage after armor [1] and allowed you to completely bypass any armor with an activation roll [2]? Oh' date=' and it doesn’t have a roll to work, [3'] and it doesn’t take an action to use? [4]

This question sounds more like "I'm grumpy and going to ask a senile question" but I'll respond to it in case I'm misreading you.

 

1: I would allow FW with a limitation that halved defense only after "Armor" (though for a brick like Ogre, or someone with a Force Field for defense, that limitation wouldn't apply, so it'd be a small limitation).

2: No, I wouldn't allow an advantage of "bypass any armor with an activation roll." For that, you'd need your attack compounded with a supress vs armor.

3. That would be stupid, since Find Weakness has rolls to begin with.

4. Again, Find Weakness takes half a phase, and with good reason.

 

Parts 2-4 really makes you seem snarky.

 

Oh' date=' and the single attack version costs 16 points, one point more than a 12- Find Weakness on a single attack. The All Attacks version is a bargain, though, at 24 points, it’s six points cheaper than an 11- Find Weakness.[/quote']

And? With a called shot to the head, you won't ever double the STUN or BODY unless the target has no resistant defenses. With find weakenss (first you have to make the roll, then you have to hit) you half the defenses. If you make an additional roll (at -2) you quarter the defenses; there's a reason Find Weakness is expensive.

 

For all your complaining, there seems to be some things you are choosing not to see or admit to.

 

First, even if a character has 8 PSLs to target the head, they have to get past defenses first. If Johnny uses a 4d6 EB, no matter how many times he hits the head, it isn't bypassing 24 Def.

 

Next, are PSLs worse than regular skill levels?

 

Johnny has OCV 8, but also 8 PSLs.

Sammy has OCV 16, but no PSLs.

 

Target A is a destructive brick with DCV 8 and high defenses.

For both Johnny and Sammy to target his head, they need an 11-.

 

Target B is Joe Agent, with DCV 6

Johnny needs a 13- to hit him, but since he's an agent, doesn't use called shot because that might kill him.

Sammy needs 21- to hit the agent. Sammy targets the chest (-3, damage x1) and now needs an 18- to hit (effectively the same thing).

 

Do you find Sammy better because he doesn't have PSLs? Or are you just angry with OCV or Skill Levels in general?

 

If you dislike skill levels, are you against Sammy having an 8 OCV but buys 8 CSLs giving him a 16 OCV, but it's okay for the Johnny B Quick to have a 48 DEX and 16 OCV base?

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Hit Locations

 

A ‘variant’ of find weakness. As in, different from normal find weakness. So there’s no contradiction.

 

I was trying to make a point. Specifically, “There is already a similar power to this, that is far less effective for increasing damage, and has several drawbacks (extra time, activation roll) that buying hit location only skill levels do not have. It’s also noticeably more expensive than the skill levels.â€

 

Actual find weakness DOES “waste half a phase†“reduce an enemies resistant defenses by a point or two†uses an activation roll, only affects one defense at a time, AND is more expensive.

 

---

To be fair, it can also be used multiple times.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Augh. Post overlap. Hate it when that happens.

 

Ok, to clear up any genuine misconceptions. I was assuming that most campaigns that use hit locations also used sectional armor. Is that not accurate anymore? Because every campaign I’ve played in or been near that used one, used the other.

 

THAT is what I meant by ‘ignoring armor.’ If that assumption was incorrect, then that point isn’t valid.

 

The rest is, though.

 

I’m not particularly angry at OCV, skill levels or anything else, except perhaps the cancellation of Mystery Science Theater 3000 and Fallout 3

 

And while I may be grumpy . . . well, I’m always grumpy, but I don’t think I expressed my grumpiness level here.

 

 

Next, are PSLs worse than regular skill levels?

 

Ah, maybe this is the problem. No, using a PSL’s to boost your effective OCV to 16 is no ‘worse’ than using inexpensive skill levels to boost your OCV to 16, or buying massive Dex. Well, it’s a bit worse, because it makes it cheaper to do so, and encourages people to do so.

 

But I fully acknowledge that a targeting PSL has some limitations that normal, more expensive skill levels don’t.

 

In fact, you’ll notice the first examples I gave involved 2 pt OCV levels, 3 pt OCV levels, and only then mentioned targeting levels. My complaint is about targeted shots in general.

 

(In fact, the only PSLs I have problems with are targeting ones. Range ones are fine.)

 

Nor do I have a problem with skill levels. I LIKE skill levels, I think they give more character than just piling on Dex.

 

However, I don’t think OCV in general needs the kind of power upgrade that called shots give it.

 

Adding hit locations changes the function of OCV, and by extension, Dex and skill levels. Without hit locations, OCV lets you hit things. That’s important, but it’s not everything. OCV is less effective against slow or hard targets, who you’re likely to hit anyway. Now, most of the ways of increasing OCV (Dex, good skill levels) have other benefits, so you’re discouraged from buying a ton of 2 point levels, in favor of more interesting options. And playing lower-OCV but higher-damage characters is less frustrating.

 

When you add in targeted shots, OCV not only lets you hit things, it lets you increase stun damage, a lot, provided it’s something you can hurt at all. So a super-high OCV character can not only hit everything, if he doesn’t need to use his full OCV to hit, he can use it to increase damage. Not increase it a bit, ala using skill levels to kick up the DC, but dramatically.

 

Not only does this encourage stratosphere-high OCVs, it encourages buying them in the least interesting ways, because you need so many of them to compete. Which is where the 2 pt OCV levels and PSLs come in.

 

And? With a called shot to the head, you won't ever double the STUN or BODY unless the target has no resistant defenses.

Correct. I should have said ‘Doubles the amount of damage you actually do.’ But that’s kind of clunky.

With one exception. Unless I’m mistaken, you apply the STUNx multiple for KAs before you apply defenses. So, it effectively (almost) doubles your stun damage for KAs. (Body x 2.67 for regular KA, Body x5 for headshots) Close enough for government work.

 

But then, no one’s ever had a problem with disproportionately high stun effects from Killing Attacks.

 

You’re making it sound insignificant, though, and it isn’t.

 

 

And finally, because it’s completely independent from the cost of the power, headshots get horrifying when power levels go up. Spending 16 points to double the Stun and increase the Body of a 1d6+1 HKA may not seem bad. But that same 16 points can double the actual damage inflicted by your 8d6 Backfist, or your 12d6 Spin Kick. Or your 3 1/2 d6 AP HKA. And the 24 point version doubles the stun and increases the body of all four.

 

Find weakness has some similar issues, but it has severe limitations, as gone over above, costs more, and even then rates a !

 

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Or, to put it another way. (I’m not repeating myself to be pedantic, I’m doing it because I don’t think I’m explaining myself well)

 

Lets ignore the Find Weakness thing for the moment. Lets say I want to make a new perk that lets me always do the max stun multiple for killing attacks, and doubles any stun or body that I actually manage to inflict otherwise.

 

Now, what should it be worth? I’m thinking, considerably more than 16 points for a single attack, or 24 for all attacks. And the 16 point version has some extra benefits, on top of that.

 

I’m not using skill level prices as an example because I hate them, I’m using them because they avoid arguments about costs. That’s what 2 point skill levels and targeting PSLs are for.

 

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Well, I am angry at Black Diamond’s HTH Levels. But that’s just them, and it has nothing to do with the rest.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Are you taking into account that Hit Locations are meant for games where point cost balance is less important and high lethality is desired, like say, a Cyberpunk campaign.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit Locations

 

It's a vulnerability you are taking advantage of.

 

Zombies are 75% Damage Reduction but have a _Vulnerability_ to head shots. The Vulnerability means that they don't get 75% Reduction to head wounds.

 

Or words to that effect. Not from any book; just felt right.

 

I made a Resident Evil/Dawn of the Dead style zombie character not too long ago and wrote him up as having the "Invulnerability" EC (legal only with expresed GM permission):

 

Armor, DR and Regen all in an EC. I didn't even include Takes No STUN, though I suppose I could have. The result is a character that can absorb all kinds of damage without suffering any ill effects (the character also had a ton of STUN and CON and a 40 REC). To add in the "head shots kill him" I'd just give him a little bit of BODY and a Limitation to his EC "not verses damage to the head". A 1 1/2d6K attack would kill him after the x2 BODY and no defenses if he only had a 5-6 BODY.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit Locations

 

If a character is Climbing (sometimes)' date=' Entangled, or Knocked Out, they're listed as being at 0 DCV, even though they're normal sized (and thus smaller than a hex) because they're incapable of dodging or taking any kind of defensive actions. If the zombies never dodge or take defensive actions, I can see a 0 DCV being reasonable.[/quote']

 

A hex is also 0 DCV if adjacent. However, in each case where a character is a 0, he is immobile/helpless. Zombies aren't immobile/hepless. While they might not be activing avoiding attacks, neither are they just freezing in place while being shot at.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hit Locations

 

A hex is also 0 DCV if adjacent. However' date=' in each case where a character is a 0, he is immobile/helpless. Zombies aren't immobile/hepless. While they might not be activing avoiding attacks, neither are they just freezing in place while being shot at.[/quote']

Oh, true enough. I just figured the reason a non-adjacent hex has a DCV of 3 and a character has a DCV of 0 under those circustances is that in order to hit the hex, you're still shooting at a pretty hard angle...like trying to hit something laying flat on the ground...while a person is upright, and therefore you don't have the "angle" problem.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Are you taking into account that Hit Locations are meant for games where point cost balance is less important and high lethality is desired' date=' like say, a Cyberpunk campaign.[/quote']

 

That is very true. The rule is specifically suggested for use in games where chracter's don't pay points for equipment (and generally don't have powers). So in such games you can pay your 16 points for double damage while your buddy just gets a bigger gun and pays nothing (in points).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hit Locations

 

That is very true. The rule is specifically suggested for use in games where chracter's don't pay points for equipment (and generally don't have powers). So in such games you can pay your 16 points for double damage while your buddy just gets a bigger gun and pays nothing (in points).

Which, really, ends up coming down to character concept. Is the character you envision the type who's incredibly good at hitting 'just the right spot', or his he the type that gets the largest gun he can and throws hails of high-velocity, steel-jacketed lead downfield?

[Vanguard00]

Re: Hit Locations

 

I love it when y'all get all technical and munchkiny.

 

Regarding called shots, no one yet has really just said "depends". The rules are fluid for a reason, and that reason is to be able to adapt them to abnormal situations.

 

In normal combat called shot modifiers seem appropriate to me. Zombies aren't necessarily 'normal' by my definition, so other rules may apply. I see nothing wrong with halving their DCV (and by extension halving called shot penalties). It's all situational.

 

As a side note, I've never played in nor ran a game that didn't use sectional armor with called shots. For me it's a package deal. You either have both or neither (with some exceptions, of course). If armor isn't purchased as sectional its considered to be total.

 

To answer the original question, if it was military guys poppin' caps at each other, the called shot modifiers would be appropriate. If you're facing a zombie, halve the DCV and modifiers (to represent slower perception, movement, lack of defensive maneuvering, etc). If you're facing a gelatinous blob, no called shots. If you're facing a playing card, size matters but DCV doesn't.

 

And no matter what the final modifiers add up to be, a '3' always misses.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hit Locations

 

And no matter what the final modifiers add up to be' date=' a '3' always misses.[/quote']

Er...what?

[Vanguard00]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Er...what?

Er, 18. I meant 18. I said 18, didn't I?

 

Crap.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Why give zombies half DCV? Wouldn't it be more consistent just to give them a lower Dex and possibly some CSLs for increasing OCV (oh, and Agility SLs if you really think they should be dexterous, but I don't personally think I could justify this).

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Why give zombies half DCV? Wouldn't it be more consistent just to give them a lower Dex and possibly some CSLs for increasing OCV (oh' date=' and Agility SLs if you really think they should be dexterous, but I don't personally think I could justify this).[/quote']

 

Uhm... just like I suggested way back at the beginning of this thread?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Uhm... just like I suggested way back at the beginning of this thread?

Yeah. I'm just amazed at how people seem to be going on and on about hand waves when they aren't necessary for this at all! Other places they might help, but this is so basic and so easily solved I'm just really not sure what the issue is.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Er, 18. I meant 18. I said 18, didn't I?

 

Crap.

Vanguard00, don't hate me for this, but under the circumstances it's simply too good to not say...

 

 

Looks like you rolled an '18' on your "Express self in writing" skill when talking about how an '18' always fails...

 

 

 

 

 

Forgive me, please...

[Vanguard00]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Yeah. I'm just amazed at how people seem to be going on and on about hand waves when they aren't necessary for this at all! Other places they might help' date=' but this is so basic and so easily solved I'm just really not sure what the issue is. [/quote']

One, I'm not saying I'd necessarily do it, only that it seems reasonable for someone who has issues with called shot modifiers to begin with. It's a way out, so to speak.

 

Two, there's decent logic in suggesting that zombies move at a relatively normal speed when properly motivated, but that 'defense' isn't proper motivation. Again, just trying to look at it from all angles. There's usually more than one way to skin a ca--er, zombie.

 

Personally, I like the low DEX with extra CSLs for OCV option, but I wouldn't find the half-DCV option unbearable.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Hit Locations

 

Forgive me' date=' please...[/quote']

No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, maybe. Update your files and we'll see...