Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

[Kirby]

Okay, here's the scenario. Two characters have the power Armor. Both have it at an activation roll of 14-. One has it as a focus (full body Samurai armor) while the other has it as a regular power (Omicron Armor plating, no focus). Now, by description, both characters have the Armor covering all major body parts (all those you take standard called shots for), but there are tiny gaps in them.

 

(NOTE: I know for some armor, such as helmet or vest, it has a defined location, but this is armor whose description covers pretty much the entire body.)

 

If a PC/NPC wanted to do a called shot bypassing the armor, how would you handle that? Would they have to target a body part, getting a minus for that, and then another minus for the armor? If so, what additional minus would you give it? My initial guess would be like so:

Activation , Penalty

8- , -1

9- , -2

10- , -3

11- , -4

12- , -5

13- , -6

14- , -7

15- , -8

 

So, if someone wanted to target the head, they'd get -8 for head shot, then -7 for bypassing 14- armor, for a total of -15. If they just wanted to bypass the armor with no special frills, they'd target the chest -3, then the armor -7 for a total of -10 to guarantee an armorless hit.

 

While this may seem extreme, the player who brought this up already has +4 levels for hit locations, along with a viscious OCV with his weapon, and the villain in question was at 1/2 DCV at the time (making a head shot -4).

 

Opinions, experiences, or is this actually mentioned in the book?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I think there are SFX for Activation Rolls that it would not make sense for an attacker to be able to bypass. For example, the character's defenses might be based upon, "the whim of the gods," they might at times spontaneously lose power when subjected to any force, or they might need to phase differently for each attack and sometimes not be able to do it in time.

 

IMO some defenses have an additional Limitation Activation Based on Hit Locations (-0), in which case those Hit Locations covered should really be defined appropriately (I'd probably use the defaults in the Armor section if the character's Power doesn't specifiy them explicitly).

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Uh, yeah. Aside from the 'will of the gods," how about for the examples I provided?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Ah...actually I would probably figure out from the 3d6 probability distribution the average percent protected, then go with the usual -1 per 1/2 area thing. For balance reasons I would start it at -1 rather than -0. That means it would look something like:

Act   Act%  Fail%  Penalty
---   ----  -----  -------
3-   0.5%  99.5%   -1
4-   1.9%  98.1%   -1
5-   4.6%  95.4%   -1
6-   9.3%  90.7%   -1
7-  16.2%  83.8%   -1
8-  25.9%  74.1%   -2
9-  37.5%  62.5%   -2
10-  50.0%  50.0%   -2
11-  62.5%  37.5%   -3
12-  74.1%  25.9%   -3
13-  83.8%  16.2%   -4
14-  90.7%   9.3%   -4
15-  95.4%   4.6%   -5
16-  98.1%   1.9%   -6
17-  99.5%   0.5%   -8
18- 100.0%   0  %   N/A

I probably would only allow this, as you say, if a Targetted attack is already being made, so these would be in addition to the Hit Location penalty.

 

EDIT: Changed it to roughly the, "half-way," points between powers of 2, for more of a, "rounding," effect. It looks a little more fair, too.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Ooh! My favorite!

 

Uncharted territory!

 

Hmm......

 

perhaps you might require a critical success (if you use them; I don't) specifically on a 'called shot?'

 

I suppose, re-reading, that what you've come up with is as good a call as any, really. It might help to perhaps have a sketch of what the armor actually does or does not cover.

 

Though it seems pretty harsh, in my own opinion, to allow someone to specifically bypass an armor that already has a built-in 'bypass' mechanism.

 

Perhaps you could simply allow the called shot, then roll the Activation.

 

Oh wait--

 

here's a long shot that might work:

 

many groups that use the Hit Location chart use the idea that you call your shot, roll to hit, then roll for location. The number by which you successfully hit

[Let's say you needed a 9, and rolled a 4; you hit by 5]

 

and allow you to move that many levels up the hit chart toward the area you were wanting to target.

 

Perhaps you could consider doing something like that to the Activation roll:

 

You hit by five to the called location. Now the target suffers that 5 as a penalty to his activation roll, forcing him to roll 9 or less to activate the armor.

 

I think this might do the trick. Though in this case, I would still enforce all location penalties for the 'called shot'.

 

So let's say that Sniper Man needs an 11 or less to hit, sets and braces to bump it up to a 12, and uses his SLs to bump that up to a 20 or less.

 

He calls a head shot, and suffers a -8 for the called shot. Now he needs a 12 or less. He rolls a 5 (lucky %#&@!), making the shot by 7.

 

His opponent has Armor; Activation, 14-. He deducts the 7 from that roll, so he now needs a 7- for the armor to protect him.

 

 

Is this even remotely workable for you? Or are you looking for some kind of 'automatic' bypass?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Interesting. Reducing the Activation Roll based on the amount by which the attacker hits. That deserves some thought. I'd rep if I could.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Ooh! My favorite!

 

Uncharted territory!

 

Hmm......

 

[...]

 

His opponent has Armor; Activation, 14-. He deducts the 7 from that roll, so he now needs a 7- for the armor to protect him.

 

Is this even remotely workable for you? Or are you looking for some kind of 'automatic' bypass?

Now that sounds interesting. No, I wasn't wanting an 'automatic' bypass per se, but I did want it to be difficult.

 

As for the "looks" of the armor, one is Samurai armor that has few 'weak spots' if you know where to look (such as the armpits, but that's a hard hit); the other is Ripper, whose picture makes him seem like he'd have a much lower activation roll, but may have 'Armor' under his purple, bilous skin.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

First:

 

thanks, P! I'm honored

 

Next:

 

As for the "looks" of the armor' date=' one is Samurai armor that has few 'weak spots' if you know where to look[/quote']

 

Now this brings up a second possibilty, and that is perhaps that a character without an appropriate KS might not be able to use the maneuver I described above. As you say, you have to know where to look.

 

One thing is for certain; I would _only_ allow this mechanic on called shots. Called shots are by their nature more difficult to pull off anyway, which keeps them from being over-used. If every successful hit, called or otherwise, reduced the Activation roll, I suspect you'd see a huge drop-off in Activated Armor in your game......

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Hmm. Another thought. How about an Advantage on Find Weakness? If that is all it can be used for, it might be worth a Limitation on top of the Advantage.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Could you explain with a little more detail? Are you talking about something like "Find Weaknes" (-#, only versus Armor) (+#, can reduce Armor activation)?

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

First:

 

thanks, P! I'm honored

Hey, what about me? I did rep you!

 

One thing is for certain; I would _only_ allow this mechanic on called shots. Called shots are by their nature more difficult to pull off anyway' date=' which keeps them from being over-used.[/quote']

Ditto.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Hey' date=' what about me? I [i']did[/i] rep you!

 

with all appologies to anyone on this board who has found something I've said interesting enough to go to the trouble,

 

I don't know how to check for Rep. It doesn't come by PM, that much I've figured out.....

 

 

But thanks to you, too, Kirby!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Could you explain with a little more detail? Are you talking about something like "Find Weaknes" (-#' date=' only versus Armor) (+#, can reduce Armor activation)?[/quote']

How about something like:

Find Weakness: with guns, 14-;

Success vs. Activation Roll in a Contested Contest Indicates Failure of Activation Roll (+1);

All or Nothing: Find Weakness Never Halves Defense (-1/4);

Just a crazy idea. I guess you could also go with something like:

Naked Advantage - AVLD: Only Full Coverage Defenses Apply (+3/4);

Requires A Skill Roll: Attack in a Skill vs. Skill Contest Against the Activation Roll (-?);

Sorry. Don't have my book so I can't look up actual values ATM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

with all appologies to anyone on this board who has found something I've said interesting enough to go to the trouble,

 

I don't know how to check for Rep. It doesn't come by PM, that much I've figured out.....

 

 

But thanks to you, too, Kirby!

Oh my goodness! Click on, "User CP," in the banner. (Actually it took me a while to figure it out as well. I'm not laughing at you.)

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I don't know how to check for Rep. It doesn't come by PM' date=' that much I've figured out.....[/quote']

Method 1: For generic Reputation numbers, click on the "justice scales" symbol on any of your posts. This will tell you how much rep you have been given.

 

Method 2: To find out who has given you rep, click on "User CP" in the upper left-hand corner of your post. This will bring up your User Control Panel. In the center filling to the right will be a block of "New Subscribed Threads." Scroll down below this and you'll see "Latest Reputation Received." It will show you the last 50 times you've been repped, and by whom.

 

If you click on the link under "Thread" it will take you to the specific post they're repping you on. (The green boxes mean they gave you rep, if you have any gray boxes, those are from people who repped you, but have 0 rep to give out.) The date is when they repped you, "Posted By" is of course who repped you, and "Comment" is what they're telling you when they rep you.

 

But thanks to you' date=' too, Kirby![/quote']

Aw, shucks, you don't have to go to that trouble.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

HOLY CARP!

 

Oh, Great Fish!

 

There's a bunch o' stuff in there!

 

Thanks, folks!

 

And thanks Kirby and P, for the second lesson (Doc A told me once, way back when, but I had forgotten....)

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

In a somewhat Dark Champions game I ran back in . . . oh, must have been around ‘94 or so, I let characters knock a point off of a targets armor activation (that is, 14- to 13-) by using two 5 pt (or better) skill levels to aim for the soft spots. We weren’t using hit locations.

 

Didn’t cause any problems then. And it’s a heck of a lot cooler than using 10 points worth of skill levels to add +1 Body to damage. I’m not sure I’d make it quite that easy now, though. This kind of thing tends to make Dex and cheap skill levels REALLY good, and they’re already really good. You can easily run into the old ‘Head Shot Standard’ problem that made Cyberpunk 2020 combats all the same.

 

Still, I’d still go back to it long before I started using hit locations again . . . Since it uses fairly expensive skill levels, instead of just a big OCV penalty, you don’t get the problem of everyone wanting 26 Dex and 10 3 point skill levels, and pure OCV being the be-all and end-all of combat. (Well, you’ll probably still get it, but not because of this bit)

 

If it’s a ‘campaign standard,’ though, you might want to increase the limitation that armor activation gives. Adding +1/4 or +1/2 to the activation limitations. Or just including 13- . . .

 

Just out of curiosity, is it legal to buy Change Environment to penalize activation rolls? Not that I’d do such a horrid thing, of course.

 

At least, not very often . . .

 

---

I mean, would you allow a 16 point power that let a character bypass all resistant defenses for 90% of the bad guys, and double his damage against all targets at the same time? Well, if you use hit locations, you are.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Should you be able to use skill to avoid armour with an activation roll? Well it happens in the comics, so I guess so.

 

One option is a special attack: EB NND Does BODY (with the NND component limited: NND ONLY negates armour with an activation roll, attack damage reduced normally against all over defences)

 

Mind you that doesn't tie in the skill of the attacker, so...

 

Drain. Basically what you want to do is make your opponent's arour less effective: you could do that by reducing the total of the armour OR by increasing the activation limitation. As an example, for 10 points worth of defence:

 

....................................Cost.................Saving

 

8-..........2........................3........................7

9-..........1.5.....................4........................6

10-........1.25....................4........................6

11-........1........................5........................5

12-13-....0.75...................6........................4

14-........0.5......................7.......................3

15-........0.25....................8........................2

 

OK, so if you have 10 points of 14- activation defence and have 4 points drained it becomes 8- activation defence BUT STILL 10 points. Drain another 3 points and it will not activate at all...

 

OK so you'll need limitations on your drain, like 'ONLY v the one character' (-0.25) - it doesn't make the target easier to damage EXCEPT for the person weilding the power, RSR too would be good. Oh and you'll want ranged.

 

What it means, in effect, is that the character can study his opponent, and reduce defences by making them less likely to activate. Even works for defences that don't normally have an activation roll.

 

Somewhat messy to administer but easy enough to whip up an excel lookup table and print it off.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

...as to my first suggestion I see someone already suggested AVLD, which is a better option than my NND suggestion, I think.

[Lucius]

Rep?

 

with all appologies to anyone on this board who has found something I've said interesting enough to go to the trouble,

 

I don't know how to check for Rep. It doesn't come by PM, that much I've figured out.....

 

 

But thanks to you, too, Kirby!

 

You're doing better than I.

 

I don't know what "rep" is.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I doubt the palindromedary knows either.

[Lucius]

Oh Wow

 

Oh my goodness! Click on' date=' "User CP," in the banner. (Actually it took me a while to figure it out as well. I'm not laughing [i']at[/i] you.)

 

Oh! Wow! I see some people had nice things to say about me.

 

Now how do I do it, or can I?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

(-: :-)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Rep?

 

Called shots normally fall anywhere from -8 to -3.

 

I would personally do it this way:

 

SFX ("Small Opening in the Armor")

8-....-3 OCV

11-..-4 OCV

12-..-5 OCV

13-..-6 OCV

14-..-7 OCV

15-..-8 OCV

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Rep?

 

I don't like the use of this though. What do you do for players with armor activation rolls versus enemies with Find Weakness? If they make the Find Weakness roll do they always get to hit that "opening"?

[Kirby]

Re: Oh Wow

 

Oh! Wow! I see some people had nice things to say about me.

 

Now how do I do it, or can I?

Yes, you can. When you see a post that you like, you click on the "Justice Scales" of that person's post. (Go ahead and practice on mine. ) This will bring up a little window where you can type something nice in. You can make it long, or as short as a smilie. You can even just type in "Thanks." Then click the button and voila, that person has some rep from you. As of your last post, you have 4 rep power, so you'd add to them 4 points. When they get to certain 'levels' of rep, their rep power goes up.

 

As a side note, while you can give rep to people in the NGD forum, that rep doesn't count toward rep power, since NGD (Non Gaming Discussion) isn't related to HERO Games.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I think there are SFX for Activation Rolls that it would not make sense for an attacker to be able to bypass. For example, the character's defenses might be based upon, "the whim of the gods," they might at times spontaneously lose power when subjected to any force, or they might need to phase differently for each attack and sometimes not be able to do it in time.

 

IMO some defenses have an additional Limitation Activation Based on Hit Locations (-0), in which case those Hit Locations covered should really be defined appropriately (I'd probably use the defaults in the Armor section if the character's Power doesn't specifiy them explicitly).

 

I agree with this... just because it has an activation, doesn't mean that it can be bypassed with a called shot. The rules don't require this, nor do the SFX always support this.

 

If someone has defined their activation as "small gaps" then the discussion has to be at the beginning of charcter creation... can these gaps be targeted? If so, what rule is used.

 

Not an easy question in a generic supers game where this SFX may or may not be a real problem.

 

One of the basic concepts in Hero for supers is that targetting a gap is usually the onus of the attack, not the defense. i.e. the attacker has to buy Find Weakness or some such to show the abilty to hit weak spots... rather than a defense be able to be targetted by any shmoe. For that, use sectional armor and the hit location chart.