Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

[RDU Neil]

Re: Oh Wow

 

Yes, you can. When you see a post that you like, you click on the "Justice Scales" of that person's post. (Go ahead and practice on mine. ) This will bring up a little window where you can type something nice in. You can make it long, or as short as a smilie. You can even just type in "Thanks." Then click the button and voila, that person has some rep from you. As of your last post, you have 4 rep power, so you'd add to them 4 points. When they get to certain 'levels' of rep, their rep power goes up.

 

As a side note, while you can give rep to people in the NGD forum, that rep doesn't count toward rep power, since NGD (Non Gaming Discussion) isn't related to HERO Games.

 

Giving Rep in NGD does count (I'm pretty sure) just that your post count from NGD doesn't count or figure into rep. Check ou Dr. Anomaly. He has the super high rep from many of his NGD posts.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Oh Wow

 

Oh! Wow! I see some people had nice things to say about me.

 

Now how do I do it, or can I?

 

I'm headed out to work and then I'll be out of town, but I'll try to PM you tomorrow night with some links to the threads that helped me, so as not to further tie up this thread.

 

Duke

[Tiree]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I also like the beat by X reduce activation roll by X. But as an alternate, the player who is firing, could make a call that they want to reduce their TN by X so the Activation Roll could take a negative.

 

So in the same situation with the shooter has to beat a 12 for a headshot. They take an additional 5 penalty so now the defender has to roll a 9 or less.

 

This way you don't have players like me making called shots everytime they play since it may cause a negative to the Activation Roll. By adding the attacker must choose the penalty they also seem to have more control.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

CHECK YOUR REP

 

Top right hand corner it says 'User CP' - click on it. Top part of the page is subscribed threads: bottom part is who gave you rep and why.

 

 

 

RE whim of the gods activation rolls: no, you probably could not 'aim' through it but then anyone with 'God Power Vision' would know when to hit you

[Tiree]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

CHECK YOUR REP

 

Top right hand corner it says 'User CP' - click on it. Top part of the page is subscribed threads: bottom part is who gave you rep and why.

 

I didn't know about that either - btw thanks for the REP from another thread.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Oh Wow

 

Giving Rep in NGD does count (I'm pretty sure) just that your post count from NGD doesn't count or figure into rep. Check ou Dr. Anomaly. He has the super high rep from many of his NGD posts.

Actually, the NGD posts don't account for the majority of it. For example, out of the last 50 rep comments I've got, 8 of them have been NGD-related. So I like to think it's for more than just my non-gaming contributions.

 

 

 

(Y'know, I'm beginning to understand how some politicians feel -- an idea gets started in the public press ["most of his rep comes from the NGD / pics of girls in bikinis"] and then everyone starts repeating it as if it's the known truth or a known fact!)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Wow. Wish I'd gotten in on this one earlier.

 

Robot Warriors called for doing it thusly: take -1 to your OCV for every 1 you want to reduce the target's Activation Roll by.

 

Alternate option: determine the locations covered by the armor based on the Activation Roll. There's a chart somewhere in the section for making Armor equipment. Once you've done that, just aim for an uncovered location.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Robot Warriors called for doing it thusly: take -1 to your OCV for every 1 you want to reduce the target's Activation Roll by.

I never had the chance to own or even read Robot Warriors. I'm thinking now there are still good reasons for picking up the long out-of-date stuff, if it can be found...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Oh Wow

 

Actually, the NGD posts don't account for the majority of it. For example, out of the last 50 rep comments I've got, 8 of them have been NGD-related. So I like to think it's for more than just my non-gaming contributions.

 

 

 

(Y'know, I'm beginning to understand how some politicians feel -- an idea gets started in the public press ["most of his rep comes from the NGD / pics of girls in bikinis"] and then everyone starts repeating it as if it's the known truth or a known fact!)

 

Oh you are sooooooooooooo paranoid. So it's working then

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I never had the chance to own or even read Robot Warriors. I'm thinking now there are still good reasons for picking up the long out-of-date stuff' date=' if it can be found...[/quote']

 

There are, however, some good reasons for NOT picking up RW

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

There are' date=' however, some good reasons for NOT picking up RW [/quote']

Really? Like what?

 

(Honest puzzlement here.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Really? Like what?

 

(Honest puzzlement here.)

 

Some intresting mechanics I could never get to work right and not the most coherent presentation of a work on role playing, ever. I mean, worth reading, but I wouldn't necessarily spend a lot of time searching. I gave my copy to a Manga freak years ago who collected giant robot games. Don't think he played it a lot.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Wow. Wish I'd gotten in on this one earlier.

Yeah, me too!

Robot Warriors called for doing it thusly: take -1 to your OCV for every 1 you want to reduce the target's Activation Roll by.

Hmm, I may do something like this, but requiring a specific hit location first.

 

Alternate option: determine the locations covered by the armor based on the Activation Roll. There's a chart somewhere in the section for making Armor equipment. Once you've done that' date=' just aim for an uncovered location.[/quote']

Well, that's sort of be excluded at the first post. This was mainly about armor that's supposed to cover an entire body, but has tiny gaps. (Such as armpits, back of the knee, inside elbow, etc.) If it were just "helmet and vest" protection, that'd be easy.

 

PS: I have Robot Gladiators, but not Robot Warriors. (I see it's a supplement for RW.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Hmm' date=' I may do something like this, but requiring a specific hit location first.[/quote']

 

I would say yes, if they intend to hit a specific location. Otherwise, if the gaps are all over, then I'd just let them shoot for the gaps at whatever penalty you end up using.

 

Well, that's sort of be excluded at the first post. This was mainly about armor that's supposed to cover an entire body, but has tiny gaps. (Such as armpits, back of the knee, inside elbow, etc.) If it were just "helmet and vest" protection, that'd be easy.

 

Sure. Pick your activation level and use the coverage as SFX. Use the table to determine the "uncovered locations" and use that as the basis for your OCV penalty. For instance, assuming, say, 14- coverage, look on that table. If it leaves, say, the hands uncovered (ex recto here), use whatever OCV penalty it takes to hit the hands (-6 IIRC).

 

Another option: You might house rule it. Say that characters can buy a Power Skill: Weapon Tricks (by weapon type; Power Skill: Handgun Tricks, Power Skill: Sword Tricks, etc.). Every point you make your Weapon Tricks roll by reduces the target's Activation Roll by 1, for one attack roll only. You can "burn" OCV for additional reduction, as well.

 

Another possible house rule: A successful Find Weakness vs. armor with the Real Armor Limitation means the attack (again, one attack roll only; make the roll again if you want to do it again, at standard penalties for repeated usage) ignores the armor completely.

 

Here's the thing: I wouldn't make it impossibly hard to do, because we're talking people getting points back for the Activation Roll. If it's your NPCs you're concerned about, note also that what's good for the goose is good for the gander: if the PCs can do it to the villains, the villains can do it to the PCs....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Alternate option: determine the locations covered by the armor based on the Activation Roll. There's a chart somewhere in the section for making Armor equipment. Once you've done that' date=' just aim for an uncovered location.[/quote']

Yeah. If the SFX warrent it I think that would work even in a game where you don't use Hit Locations (i.e. most Superheroic games). Just use it to resolve whether or not the defenses apply and do damage normally (as if a specific location were not targetted).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I also like the beat by X reduce activation roll by X. But as an alternate, the player who is firing, could make a call that they want to reduce their TN by X so the Activation Roll could take a negative.

 

So in the same situation with the shooter has to beat a 12 for a headshot. They take an additional 5 penalty so now the defender has to roll a 9 or less.

 

This way you don't have players like me making called shots everytime they play since it may cause a negative to the Activation Roll. By adding the attacker must choose the penalty they also seem to have more control.

 

Hmmm...

 

I see your point, but I tend to think that the targetting penalties for called shots keep them from being over-used. Granted, everyone's style is different.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Robot Warriors called for doing it thusly: take -1 to your OCV for every 1 you want to reduce the target's Activation Roll by.

 

At first I liked this,

 

but then it occured to me that it might be 'too easy.' That is, a shooter simply announces that he's going to take a -2 or -3 every time. If he has a couple of skill levels or a fair OCV, that's not too terribly large a sacrifice. And if he hits, the opponent's activation is reduced by that amount. Keep in mind that if it doesn't activate, then there is _no_ defense.

 

Essentially you can turn a five point skill level into a 'reduce opponent's armor activation.' I don't mind turning it into a DC, as that's 'just a bit more.' But this way you are adding a pretty good chance of simply bypassing defenses entirely.

 

I like the 'called shot' mechanic because it adds a great deal of difficulty to the task, keeping it a bit more 'fair' to the target, and even if the armor activates, the shooter doesn't suffer a complete miss. He simply still deducts defenses from the shot.

 

There's a chart somewhere in the section for making Armor equipment. Once you've done that, just aim for an uncovered location.

 

On that subject, I'd like to find pricing for sectional armor. I've always wondered how to do that.......

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

At first I liked this,

 

but then it occured to me that it might be 'too easy.' That is, a shooter simply announces that he's going to take a -2 or -3 every time. If he has a couple of skill levels or a fair OCV, that's not too terribly large a sacrifice. And if he hits, the opponent's activation is reduced by that amount. Keep in mind that if it doesn't activate, then there is _no_ defense.

 

Essentially you can turn a five point skill level into a 'reduce opponent's armor activation.' I don't mind turning it into a DC, as that's 'just a bit more.' But this way you are adding a pretty good chance of simply bypassing defenses entirely.

 

Assume your target has 14- activation. Reducing it by 3 makes it 11-, by no means certain that you'll bypass it. Reducing it by 6 makes it 8-, which is the point at which you can be reasonably certain you'll get through. 6 skill levels is 30 points, which is starting to be a reasonable amount for bypassing defenses with a -1/2 Limitation.

 

On that subject, I'd like to find pricing for sectional armor. I've always wondered how to do that.......

 

Try FREd pp. 278 and 334. Probably the same sections are in 5ER, but I don't have it. Fantasy Hero probably has more in-depth info.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Assume your target has 14- activation. Reducing it by 3 makes it 11-' date=' by no means certain that you'll bypass it. Reducing it by 6 makes it 8-, which is the point at which you can be reasonably certain you'll get through. [b']6 skill levels is 30 points, which is starting to be a reasonable amount for bypassing defenses with a -1/2 Limitation[/b].

[Emphasis mine]

But what if the attacker/PC is weilding a sword and has his CSLs in that? Then it's only 6 points for 6 skill levels ("with any single attack with one specific weapon").

 

Or would you say that you could only do the "reduce the armor activation" with 5 point skill levels? (Not making them specifically for reducing activation, but requiring that purchase.) That would seem appropriate. And not allow the 8 or 10 pt levels to be used that way (my personal preference there).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

And not allow the 8 or 10 pt levels to be used that way (my personal preference there).

I'd allow them to be used that way. After all, they're more expensive than the 5 point levels and while they can be used for other things, chances are the player will be buying fewer of them than they would the 5 point levels. That's why I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

[Emphasis mine]

But what if the attacker/PC is weilding a sword and has his CSLs in that? Then it's only 6 points for 6 skill levels ("with any single attack with one specific weapon").

 

Or would you say that you could only do the "reduce the armor activation" with 5 point skill levels? (Not making them specifically for reducing activation, but requiring that purchase.) That would seem appropriate. And not allow the 8 or 10 pt levels to be used that way (my personal preference there).

 

Sorry, I used 5 points as an example because that's what I was responding to.

 

I guess I'm too old school. I'm not thinking in terms of 1 point combat skill levels. Wouldn't those be levels with that specific sword? If he's disarmed, or the sword is broken, then he's screwed.

 

Edit: At any rate, were I running a game where characters buy 1-point CSLs with swords, I'm not sure I'd be using Armor with Activation Rolls to represent loss of coverage. Note that in that same game, that guy (+6 with his sword for 6 points) can make called shots to the head at -2, or for 2 points more he's making them at no penalty. That tells me more about the abusiveness of 1-point CSLs than it does about -1 OCV for -1 to Armor Activation.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

6 skill levels is 30 points' date=' which is starting to be a reasonable amount for bypassing defenses with a -1/2 Limitation.[/quote']

 

Excellent point; it certainly does make it a bit more balanced than it seemed at first draught. Yes; I think this would make it a bit more balanced, particularly considering that most players are not going to use all six for this purpose, prefering to keep one or two for bumping up their chance to hit above the penalty.

 

It's still not my flavor, but certainly something I can consider acceptable.

 

 

Try FREd pp. 278 and 334.

 

I did, but wasn't entirely satisfied. It was a good starting point, however.

 

Fantasy Hero probably has more in-depth info.

 

I have access to this; I'll have to borrow it and check it out again. Thanks!

 

re: you're comments on 'too old school to think of one-point levels.

 

I'd rep you if I could! I know the feeling. I'm old school enough myself that I have to be smacked around a bit before I allow them Certainly I don't think I'd allow them to be used in this manner.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Or would you say that you could only do the "reduce the armor activation" with 5 point skill levels? (Not making them specifically for reducing activation' date=' but requiring that purchase.) That would seem appropriate. And not allow the 8 or 10 pt levels to be used that way (my personal preference there).[/quote']

I can't speak for anyone else, but certainly I would handle it this way.

 

Oh, and rep. I like how this is all fleshing out. I might have to try it myself next time Activated armor comes up!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Sorry, I used 5 points as an example because that's what I was responding to.

 

I guess I'm too old school. I'm not thinking in terms of 1 point combat skill levels. Wouldn't those be levels with that specific sword? If he's disarmed, or the sword is broken, then he's screwed.

 

Edit: At any rate, were I running a game where characters buy 1-point CSLs with swords, I'm not sure I'd be using Armor with Activation Rolls to represent loss of coverage. Note that in that same game, that guy (+6 with his sword for 6 points) can make called shots to the head at -2, or for 2 points more he's making them at no penalty. That tells me more about the abusiveness of 1-point CSLs than it does about -1 OCV for -1 to Armor Activation.

 

Really want to back up this comment. There is a lot of talk on this thread and the Hit Locations thread about use of specific CSL to counter hit locations, etc. I've played tons of lower level games where Hit Location and Sectional armor were used... and in all of them CSLs of all kinds were very limited. If you are playing a more "realistic" game where sectional defenses (however represented) are being used, well it might behoove you to be a bit more "realistic" in what CSLs you allow. There were tons of campaign limits on how many plusses you could have in an attack, how weapon bonueses were applied, etc.

 

What I see here is an application of one level of game... where high OCVs and tons of levels are allowed... crunching up against a different level of game where sectional armor and more potent damage are key.

 

While not mutually exclusive, I think this is one of the main problems. If you want some super, over the top characters who have massive levels... you probably shouldn't be trying to grit out the armor and such. While Hero can do both... I'd argue that doing both in the same game is counter productive.

 

(There are a lot of other ways in which the generic mechanics, often meant for supers or that style of play, don't work as well when you are trying for a lower level, grittier type game. Martial Arts is one area... the use of tons of levels and limited CSLs is another. All IMO, of course.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

What the hell is a 1-point CSL? Is someone putting illegal Limitations on 2-point CSLs with a, "single attack," or did someone rack up a whole -4 worth of Limitations to legally put on a 5-point CSL?