Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Exactly. It's absolutely not in either 5E or 5ER. Maybe it slipped into the UMA or Combat Handbook or something' date=' but I'd be really, really surprised.[/quote']

And Steve has answered pinecone -- "there is no such thing". Hmmm...

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Dr. Anomaly asked Steve again, with a more detailed explanation on why this came up. Steve's response:

The answer's the same -- there's no such thing in the official rules. I discuss 1-point CSLs in the forthcoming The Ultimate Skill, but that just makes them an option suggested in an Ultimate book (one that ain't even in print yet).

 

HD should never be relied upon as the final word as to what's legal and what's not -- that role's reserved for the rulebook.

So, no, it's not in the rulebook, but I may be able to quote you a page number, later.

 

But I'm still going to allow them, dangit.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Steve added:

(though they are mentioned as an option on FH 87; that's where Dan got 'em' date=' I think, and I've told him it's OK to keep 'em in HD)[/quote']

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

But I'm still going to allow them' date=' dangit. [/quote']

 

I won't. That's 8 points for an effective automatic 2x BODY, 5x STUN on all killing attacks.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I won't. That's 8 points for an effective automatic 2x BODY' date=' 5x STUN on all killing attacks.[/quote']

 

I could be wrong, Chris,

 

but from the rest of the thread, i was under the opinion that these 1-points could be used _exclusively_ for OCV, and on top of that only for _one_ particular weapon, and even then, only with one particular maneuver with that weapon.

 

With these in mind, I don't think it would be possible to bump DCs or Stun Multipliers.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I could be wrong, Chris,

 

but from the rest of the thread, i was under the opinion that these 1-points could be used _exclusively_ for OCV, and on top of that only for _one_ particular weapon, and even then, only with one particular maneuver with that weapon.

 

With these in mind, I don't think it would be possible to bump DCs or Stun Multipliers.

Well, what he's referring to is the -8 needed for a called shot to the head. What he's not taking into account is that since it's a CSL and not a PSL [Penalty], it would lower the OCV's chances by 8. So someone on 125 points who has a 12 OCV, now has a 4 to hit said person in the head.

 

He's also not taking into account that the only way you could fully double BODY and STUN is if they have no resistant defenses. If they do have resistant defenses, the STUN is doubled before defenses, then the defenses are subtracted, but the only BODY that is double is the amount that bypasses defenses.

 

For PSLs for a single attack, to cover the 8 point penalty (and keep the same OCV), one would have to spend 12 points (just 4 points more).

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I won't. That's 8 points for an effective automatic 2x BODY' date=' 5x STUN on all killing attacks.[/quote']

And you don't have to.

 

Now, for my campaign that I'm running, out of the 5 PCs (7 if you count the two EBs who left the game early on because they couldn't commit), 0 (that's ZERO) have 1 point CLSs. Why? Well, Brick 1 has +6 w/Bricks Tricks MA (18 pts). Brick 2 has +4 w/HTH (20 pts). MA 1 has +1 w/HtH combat (5pts). MA 2 has +4 w/Aikido MA (12 pts) and +1 with his Bo staff (5 points). Weapon Master has +4 with his weapon MP (12 pts), +4 PSLs Rng mods (8 pts), and +4 PSLs Hit Location (6 pts). So out of five active characters there have been 86 points spent to improve attacks and 0 spent on 1-pt CSLs. (I know neither EB had them, but I don't have their character sheets any more to add up their MP points.)

 

Quite frankly, I think the points are no where near as useful in a superheroic game where points are plenty, compared to games of 150 points or less.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

There's no way in heck I am going to allow a 1-point CSL. 2-point CSLs are almost as limited and are possibly on the cheap side as it is. Thinking as a player, I would immediately munchkin it out with like +5 to +10 with Strike for my favorite attack if I wanted to powergame, and thinking as a GM that makes me want to spit nails.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Well' date=' what he's referring to is the -8 needed for a called shot to the head. What he's not taking into account is that since it's a CSL and not a PSL [Penalty'], it would lower the OCV's chances by 8. So someone on 125 points who has a 12 OCV, now has a 4 to hit said person in the head.

 

Not sure what you're talking about here. If his base OCV is 4, and he's using that weapon and that maneuver, and attacking the target's head, then his OCV is still 4. Doesn't matter whether they're PSLs or not; X +8 (1-point CSLs) -8 (penalty for the head) is still X.

 

'Tain't just PSLs that work against hit location penalties.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Now' date=' for my campaign that I'm running, out of the 5 PCs (7 if you count the two EBs who left the game early on because they couldn't commit), [b']0[/b] (that's ZERO) have 1 point CLSs. Why? Well, Brick 1 has +6 w/Bricks Tricks MA (18 pts). Brick 2 has +4 w/HTH (20 pts). MA 1 has +1 w/HtH combat (5pts). MA 2 has +4 w/Aikido MA (12 pts) and +1 with his Bo staff (5 points). Weapon Master has +4 with his weapon MP (12 pts), +4 PSLs Rng mods (8 pts), and +4 PSLs Hit Location (6 pts). So out of five active characters there have been 86 points spent to improve attacks and 0 spent on 1-pt CSLs. (I know neither EB had them, but I don't have their character sheets any more to add up their MP points.)

 

How many of your players have HeroDesigner? Because, if they didn't build their characters with it (or weren't reading this thread), they wouldn't have bought any 1-point CSLs.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

How many of your players have HeroDesigner? Because' date=' if they didn't build their characters with it (or weren't reading this thread), they wouldn't have bought any 1-point CSLs.[/quote']

6 out of 7

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

There's no way in hell I am going to allow a 1-point CSL. 2-point CSLs are almost as limited and are possibly on the cheap side as it is. Thinking as a player' date=' I would immediately munchkin it out with like +5 to +10 with Strike for my favorite attack if I wanted to powergame, and thinking as a GM that makes me want to spit nails. [/quote']

Then quit your whining and don't allow the optional rule. Pure and simple.

 

If you're a Brick who punches, you can't use it.

If you're an Energy Projector who shoots beams from the hands or eyes, you can't use it.

If you're Martial Artists who doesn't carry weapons, you can't use it.

If you're a Mentalist who uses EGO powers, you can't use it.

If you're a Mystic who casts spells, and not from foci, you can't use it.

If you're a Speedster who does move-throughs, move-bys, or rapid punches, you can't use it.

 

Now, if you're a Gadgeteer, Powered Armor, or Weaponsmith and have Multipower slots for a weapon, you get to choose one attack that you use if for, regardless of how many slots you have.

 

If you are a Martial Artist with weapons and you can use the CSL with one maneuver: maybe strike, maybe throw, maybe grab, maybe disarm, but not two, not three, not all.

 

Wow.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Not sure what you're talking about here. If his base OCV is 4' date=' and he's using that weapon and that maneuver, and attacking the target's head, then his OCV is still 4.[/quote']

Because if his character used 8 levels to improve his OCV, chances are that the vast majority of the time using a 12 OCV in combat. Called shots to the head from those with CSLs are generally used sparingly, not liberally. So the character is taking a huge minus from what he's normally used to, unlike the more expensive PSLs, where the PC can take called shots constantly without affecting his OCV, until he goes after a hit location with a larger penalty than he has levels for.

[KA.]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I don't think that bypassing defenses should really be allowed like this. Bypassing someones defenses should be a power' date=' like find weakness. I suppose if the GM really wanted to allow it, I'd go for the simplest system listed so far, and let the 5,8, & 10 pt levels knock down the activation roll. I don't like the -1 to activation for each each you hit by, as this would make snipers REALLY nasty, as they generally hit you when you have a reduced DCV (because of surprise)...[/quote']

 

Constantine,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but this isn't exactly right.

 

Take this example:

If it cost money to build a base instead of points, and you only wanted to spend the money to buy locks for three of the four entrances, then it wouldn't really be right to say that someone had to have some special skill to get in the unlocked door.

If they want to get in the locked doors, they need Lockpicking, or possibly Security Systems.

But since you chose to leave a door unlocked because you wanted to be frugal, you can't just turn around and say that they should not be able to get in the unlocked door without some special skill.

Everybody wants to save points on character design, and some people want to realistically depict Armor that does not cover all locations.

But, if you make that choice, you take that risk.

It is sort of like buying your powers with the "Doesn't work in Water" Limitation, and then being upset if the GM has an adventure take place at a Water Park.

 

Also, remember that it is pretty hard to die in Hero.

Even if someone gets in a good shot, unless they are using some kind of massive attack that can take you down to -BODY in one shot, you probably aren't going to die.

And if people are throwing around that kind of attack in your campaign, having an Activation on your Armor may not be a good choice.

 

I think, like many things, a lot depends on genre, but this is also meant to be fun.

 

Unless the only enjoyment you get is out of pure grit and lots of dead bodies, I would take at least some RDef that covers you everywhere.

Even a few points of Combat Luck could make a big difference when your life is on the line.

 

I may just be a little too 'realistic' in my four-color world.

 

I figure that people who plan to spend a lot of time in combat, with energy blasts and laser beams and bullets flying around, are going to want full coverage, and that the same technology/magic/mutations that allow for the energy blasts from your eyes and hand-held laser guns, allow for that coverage.

 

Part of this also comes from one of my earliest Champions memories.

 

We were just goofing around designing characters, and then having them duel.

Almost like a Pro-wrestling Pay Per View.

One match that was scheduled was a "Death Match" where Killing Attacks were legal.

So, I put together Star Man in about 20 minutes, on all of 200 points.

He was not like the David Bowie song, or like the Sci-Fi movie.

Star Man had the ability to turn himself into a human-sized throwing star and hurl himself at people.

 

He went into the ring against Lazer, who was the GM's chosen Killing Attack specialist.

 

Now we had never faced Lazer before, and the GM had never used him before, and we were both fairly new to the system.

(People who are familiar with the 2nd Ed. Lazer already know where this is headed.)

 

Segment 12:

Lazer has a higher DEX, so he hit Star Man with his RKA, but, due to the Stun Lotto, and Star Man's decent defenses, it doesn't even STUN him.

 

Star Man launches his RKA at Lazer.

Since this was just for a 'duel' and not a character I intended to play, I think he had a 4d6 RKA.

(Lazer's was 3d6 Armor Piercing, I think, so it seemed about fair.

Also, we thought of Lazer as a Big-Shot Scary Supervillain, so I wasn't worried about me hurting him, I was worried about him hurting me! )

 

I hit Lazer with my RKA and rolled for damage.

I rolled really well.

The GM rolled some dice, looked at the book a couple of times, and said:

"'Lazer is dead."

I said "Oh, okay, I guess that means I win. . . . Wait a minute, did you say DEAD?"

GM: "Yeah, he's dead! He had Activation on his Armor, and he missed his roll.

You did twice his BODY, so that means that he is dead."

 

Even though this wasn't part of our real campaign, I was a bit shaken.

I had never seen someone kill someone else in a Champions game, and I felt bad that I was the one to do it.

I also thought that from that point on, I was not ever going to build a Player Character with Activation on their Armor, unless they were intended to die sooner or later.

 

That is one cost savings that is not worth the points, at least not on your primary and only defensive power.

 

Now if you want to build Captain America with Combat Luck and some Chain Mail or Kevlar or something, and then have the shield have an Activation, that might work out okay.

 

But if your only Defense has Activation, you are looking to get killed.

 

KA.

[pinecone]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Constantine,

That is one cost savings that is not worth the points, at least not on your primary and only defensive power.

 

But if your only Defense has Activation, you are looking to get killed.

 

KA.

Amen bruddah...first the kevlar jammies Then the armor plast cuiras.....

[pinecone]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Looks like DR. A. beat me to it...1 point levels are a "GM's option " thang, ie Not an "official" thing so I can ignore them with out getting all house ruly...

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Looks like DR. A. beat me to it...1 point levels are a "GM's option " thang' date=' ie Not an "official" thing so I can ignore them with out getting all house ruly...[/quote']

Sorry, pinecone...I wasn't trying to steal your thunder or anything.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Thunder? No. Reputation? Maybe.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Thunder? No. Reputation? Maybe.

Not true, SS!

 

 

Seriously.

[pinecone]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Sorry' date=' pinecone...I wasn't trying to steal your thunder or anything.[/quote']

De nada, yah fast typing son of a gun!...

[keithcurtis]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I'm not sure I see the controversy on the 1pt CSL and called shots. I would treat a called shot to be a combat maneuver and not allow it in concert with the (rightly) extremely limited 1pt CSL.

 

If your OCV is 4 and you take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is -4

 

If you have 8 1pt CSLs with Strike/Broadsword and you take take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is -4, since the CSLs don't apply. You're not doing a straight out strike, you are trying a maneuver, ie. called shot.

 

If you have 8 1pt CSLs with Strike to Head/Broadsword and you take take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is 4, since the CSLs do apply. Of course, what GM would allow a build like this is beyond me. Personally, if someone tried that, I would have them killed by the Headless Horseman.

 

But since the rule is optional (and there are optional rules in HD, by the very nature of Hero), don't allow it if it gives you a problem.

 

Keith "Or am I missing the nub of the gist of the crux of the argument?" Curtis

[RDU Neil]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I'm not sure I see the controversy on the 1pt CSL and called shots. I would treat a called shot to be a combat maneuver and not allow it in concert with the (rightly) extremely limited 1pt CSL.

 

If your OCV is 4 and you take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is -4

 

If you have 8 1pt CSLs with Strike/Broadsword and you take take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is -4, since the CSLs don't apply. You're not doing a straight out strike, you are trying a maneuver, ie. called shot.

 

If you have 8 1pt CSLs with Strike to Head/Broadsword and you take take a called shot to the head (-8), your OCV is 4, since the CSLs do apply. Of course, what GM would allow a build like this is beyond me. Personally, if someone tried that, I would have them killed by the Headless Horseman.

 

But since the rule is optional (and there are optional rules in HD, by the very nature of Hero), don't allow it if it gives you a problem.

 

Keith "Or am I missing the nub of the gist of the crux of the argument?" Curtis

 

While I think it clever to have their character face the headless horseman... having the player killed seems a little harsh.

 

But that's just me.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Not true, SS!

 

 

Seriously.

I was joking.

[incrdbil]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

In the superheroic scale, I used -1 to activation rolls per -1 to OCV for ages, for so long I didnt realize it was a common convention. Most of the time, it wasn't too much of a problem--supers normally wont take that against agents, realizing that agent armor is their friend against unnecessary fatalities. On the heroic scale, armor activation isn't the rule--its location coverage, then called shots using the location chart.

 

But I think I was just lucky with my players. In a 350+ or higher game, in situations where the targets DCV is lowered (or suprise situations), its not hard to get a hit while taking a significant penalty to activation rolls. (The old sniper firing fro suprise, called shot, braced, set, aiming for a while....well heck, you are probably hurt regardless of your activation based defenses. If your activation based defense isn't constant, its probably not even on in this situation.) Hitting someone with the weak entangle to drop DCV makes it pretty easy to get around an activation roll in this manner, or flash atatcks.

 

In campaigns where hit location rules are mandatory (mostly heroic I'd assume) you could define armor piercing bullets in a manner to take advantage of this.

 

5 point levels in ranged Combat, only to lower activation rolls, only with , charges equivalent to whatevewr the weapons ammo supply is, real weapon, and whatever Focus level the weapon uses.

 

You could also add "Doesn't work vs hardened defenses' as a limitation, or rework hardened defenses as levels with DCV, only versus the OCV mdifier of AP ammunition to lower activation rolls--thus making the matter of just how hardened your armor is, or just how armor piercing your ammo is a matter of who spent the most points.

 

Of course, on the superheroic scale, my important villains dont have primary defenses that are activation based. Mayby supplementary items like a shield or something.

 

I could see some FX where an activation roll can't be modified--some form of blind luck shield, or if you can't see the defense you cant try to shoot around the armor. If a force field has an activation roll to represent partial coverage, but the FF is also invisible, unless you have an ability to see the force field, I'm not going to let you lower the activation of the field by shooting around it.

 

The frequency of this happening seems based on genre. In a 4 color campaign, I only see lowering activation rolls being used against the 'super unstoppable creature" that has a tiny flaw in its defenses (a 15- activation on a big chunk of its defense) or something like that. In dark champions, where hit men, assasains, snipers abound, this rule seems appropriate.

 

If you just hate arbitrarily ruling weather activation can be lowered on FX, I'll suggest this. Make "activation can be lowered by taking an OCV penalty" an additional 1/4th limitation you can take on activation rolls. I guess you could toss in 'doesnt work vs AE attacks' as an option as well

 

I myself wouldn't use it, I'll just rule on the campaign appropriateness of lowering activation rolls, and what I deem fair to do so. Some GM's might want a -2 to OCV per -1 to activation.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

If we have a new ability to reduce someone's Activation roll (somehow), does that mean the Limitation for Activation should be larger now? I mean, you're taking something away from the guy's power that you weren't before. Seems more limited now.

 

If I were a player & got -1/4 on 15- Activation, then kept getting -12 because enemies spent 3 OCV, would I think the Limitation was worth -1/4?