Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

What the hell is a 1-point CSL? Is someone putting illegal Limitations on 2-point CSLs with a' date=' "single attack," or did someone rack up a whole -4 worth of Limitations to legally put on a 5-point CSL?[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure it's in the book (mine's at home).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

What the hell is a 1-point CSL? Is someone putting illegal Limitations on 2-point CSLs with a' date=' "single attack," or did someone rack up a whole -4 worth of Limitations to legally put on a 5-point CSL?[/quote']

You'd only have to stack -2.5 in Limitations on it (IIRC), because then the cost is 5/3.5 = 1.42 = rounds to 1.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Some intresting mechanics I could never get to work right and not the most coherent presentation of a work on role playing' date=' ever.[/quote']

 

Word!

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Oh Wow

 

(Go ahead and practice on mine. )

You know,

 

it's not really game-related, but I'm going to rep you on that just for the cajones!

 

As soon as I can, anyway......

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

What the hell is a 1-point CSL? Is someone putting illegal Limitations on 2-point CSLs with a' date=' "single attack," or did someone rack up a whole -4 worth of Limitations to legally put on a 5-point CSL?[/quote']

Just what the quote said: "with any single attack with one specific weapon."

 

Mechanics-wise, it's probably bought as OAF - weapon; however, it's part of the CSLs for HD 2.42, and just costs 1 point per level.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Just what the quote said: "with any single attack with one specific weapon."

 

Mechanics-wise, it's probably bought as OAF - weapon; however, it's part of the CSLs for HD 2.42, and just costs 1 point per level.

Hunh. I think that is just too cheap and is covered by 2-point CSLs to boot. And since when did HD define our system? HD should conform to the system, not the other way around!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

You'd only have to stack -2.5 in Limitations on it (IIRC)' date=' because then the cost is 5/3.5 = 1.42 = rounds to 1.[/quote']

Oh, don't start getting all technical on me now! Put enough of the levels together and the rounding won't work out that way.

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

And since when did HD define our system? HD should conform to the system' date=' not the other way around![/quote']

I think it is the other way around. Dan doesn't modify HeroDesigner unless it's approved by HERO Games, to my understanding.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I think it is the other way around. Dan doesn't modify HeroDesigner unless it's approved by HERO Games' date=' to my understanding.[/quote']

It is...doesn't modify...okay, now you've done it:

[TaxiMan]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

First, if the game doesn't use hit locations, then Calling Shots is not really valid. It's neat for cinematic flavor, but not game effects.

 

Second, if the game does use hit locations, the Armor should not have Activation unless it covers everything - but disappears sometimes ("whim of the gods" or such). If it really doesn't cover the head, use that for the limitation.

 

I don't see a problem.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Think of something built as a series of plates or splints on--

 

Wait. Examples: think of football armor. Or dirtbike armor. While armor is very much placed over a given location, it doesn't cover that entire location.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Good example! OK, so if it has tiny holes or gaps, then a GM could say "it'll take a lucky shot to hit one of those gaps; not only are they small, the target is moving. Shoot first, then we'll see if you hit a gap."

 

As long as the game is fun. I suppose those debating this issue want more and more detail and rules. I don't think it's necessary, but if that's the fun part for you, have at it!

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

It is...doesn't modify...okay' date=' now you've done it: [/quote']

Okay, let me rephrase it and see if that works. HERO Designer 2.42 follows the rules of HERO System 5ER. If it's [a rule] not legal, then it [HD 2.42] won't allow you to purchase it [skill/Power/or something you spend character points on] illegally. (The software does allow for house rules and such, but that's another story.)

 

 

 

 

EDIT: [Too many "its" in one sentence.]

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

As long as the game is fun. I suppose those debating this issue want more and more detail and rules. I don't think it's necessary' date=' but if that's the fun part for you, have at it![/quote']

 

Let's not forget:

 

There is great fun to be had in the debate itself!

 

Besides, it helps to shake out all those creative juices, and it gives the system a good work-out as well. And as Goodwin demonstrated, it can even help bring to light all those old forgotten optional rules from way back when!

 

Lots of fun, even if you opt to not use them!

 

[Constantine]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I don't think that bypassing defenses should really be allowed like this. Bypassing someones defenses should be a power, like find weakness. I suppose if the GM really wanted to allow it, I'd go for the simplest system listed so far, and let the 5,8, & 10 pt levels knock down the activation roll. I don't like the -1 to activation for each each you hit by, as this would make snipers REALLY nasty, as they generally hit you when you have a reduced DCV (because of surprise)...

[keithcurtis]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

If I understand correctly:

A 1 point CSL is an OCV bonus only, on one maneuver only, with one power (attack type/weapon) only.

 

Example: +1 OCV to Disarm using a Rapier. You can't use it with a broadsword and you can't use it for a basic strike.

 

Or, +1 OCV on Strike with a Large Battle Axe. You can't use it on a Sweep, and you can't use it with a Medium Battle Axe.

 

Iffy cases could be decided by your GM, of course.

 

I only found out about it when using Hero Designer.

 

Keith "Use with caution" Curtis

 

PS. In my game, all armor is on activation rather than sectional, since we use Hit Locations only occasionally and just for flavor. A minumum 3 pt skill level (or specific PSL) is necessary to reduce the activation roll. You cannot willingly give up OCV and translate it into Armor roll penalties any more than you can give up 2 OCV to add a Damage Class. That's what skill levels are for: to represent your ability to make a weapon behave in more efficient ways.

 

EDIT: I just saw all the posts in between this and the original question. Sorry for re-hashing anything.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

PS. In my game' date=' all armor is on activation rather than sectional, since we use Hit Locations only occasionally and just for flavor. A minumum 3 pt skill level (or specific PSL) is necessary to reduce the activation roll. You cannot willingly give up OCV and translate it into Armor roll penalties any more than you can give up 2 OCV to add a Damage Class. That's what skill levels are for: to represent your ability to make a weapon behave in more efficient ways.[/quote']

 

I just see it as being equivalent to aiming for a specific location. You don't need to use levels for that; you take an OCV penalty.

 

And it's not like it's guaranteed you're going to miss the armor, anyway. That's ultimately why I don't see it as being that abusive.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

Okay' date=' let me rephrase it and see if that works. [u']HERO Designer 2.42[/u] follows the rules of HERO System 5ER. If it's [a rule] not legal, then it [HD 2.42] won't allow you to purchase it [skill/Power/or something you spend character points on] illegally. (The software does allow for house rules and such, but that's another story.)

I'm sure that's what it does in theory, yes. As a software developer I can assure you that defects occur, however, and not just in code: in implementation, data, usability, and even understanding of requirements. I haven't seen it in a Hero book so far. If you'd care to give me a title and page number I'll believe you. If it simply appears in HD I'll just laugh and ignore you completely.

[pinecone]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

OK...so I skipped all the posts...but how I've always done it (since champs 1) is if you Really want to bypass the armor you take a -X on your OCV and I apply the same mod as a negative to the activation roll...it seldom gets used and its never (yet) destroyed the game...

[Kirby]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I'm sure that's what it does in theory' date=' yes.[/quote']

And in application.

 

As a software developer I can assure you that defects occur' date=' however, and not just in code: in implementation, data, usability, and even understanding of requirements.[/quote']

Simply because they exist, doesn't mean a ruling that you dislike is a defect.

 

I haven't seen it in a Hero book so far. If you'd care to give me a title and page number I'll believe you.

As I don't have all the HERO books, I can't give you the page #. I have FREd, but I can't quote you anything from 5ER, Dark Champions or The HERO System Combat Handbook. This doesn't mean a rule isn't in those books. As for "believing" me; it exists in the software as a legitimate purchase. You can remain in denial all you want, but that won't change the fact that it exists.

 

If it simply appears in HD I'll just laugh and ignore you completely.

Laugh all you want. But quite frankly, it sounds like that since you don't like it, you're changing your requirements to find it acceptable/existing. You first didn't know what the skill was, saying it sounded too cheap. When it was explained, you said you didn't think the software should write the rules, but that the software should follow HERO/5ER. When informed that HD does follow the rules, you said now one has to show you 'where in the book' it is. (Which one poster has put they believe it is in their book, but they were at a different location.)

 

The last bit of info I can give you is this, from FAQ on Skills, in particular, Combat Skills.

Q: Does a 2-point CSL with “a single weapon†apply to all of the attacks of a single weapon that has multiple attacks?

 

A: A 2-point CSL applies to any single weapon or attack. (The weapon in this case could be defined generically — for example, “+1 with Greatswords†— it doesn’t have to just be one greatsword out of all the greatswords in the world.) But if a weapon has multiple attack powers — for example, if it’s bought as a Multipower — a character would have to use a Level of greater value (probably a 3-point CSL) for the CSL to apply to all the attacks. With a 2-point CSL, he’d have to choose one of the attacks to buy it for.

[Emphasis mine]

So, a 2-point CSL can be applied to any single weapon or attack. So Johnny can buy a 2-point CSL for "Greatswords." He does so. Any greatsword Johnny gets a +1 for. Not bad since he likes them. Now, Sammy makes Johny a special engraved Greatsword with elaborate designs and calls the sword "Bob." Johnny has 2 XP to spend and decides to use it to demonstrate his fascination/obsession in training with "Bob" the Greatsword. He buys two of the 1-point CSL "with any single attack with one specific weapon." (Which is the exact phrase used in HD.)

 

Now, Johnny has +3 OCV with "Bob" because he spent two levels on Bob and one on Greatswords. Should Johnny pick up a different greatsword, or try a disarm with "Bob," then he loses those 2 OCV levels.

 

Can't help you any more than that.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

As I don't have all the HERO books' date=' I can't give you the page #. I have FREd, but I can't quote you anything from 5ER, [i']Dark Champions[/i] or The HERO System Combat Handbook. This doesn't mean a rule isn't in those books. As for "believing" me; it exists in the software as a legitimate purchase. You can remain in denial all you want, but that won't change the fact that it exists.

 

One point skill levels, combat or non-, are not in FREd. I checked last night.

 

I will note that Dan Simon has been wrong before. I'll also note that the software is not the authority on the rules.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

One point skill levels, combat or non-, are not in FREd. I checked last night.

 

I will note that Dan Simon has been wrong before. I'll also note that the software is not the authority on the rules.

Exactly. It's absolutely not in either 5E or 5ER. Maybe it slipped into the UMA or Combat Handbook or something, but I'd be really, really surprised.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

I note that pinecone has posted the question about the legality and location of 1-point CSLs to Steve, so hopefully we'll have an answer tomorrow.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

It is indeed in HD. However, "Any single attack with a single weapon" means that you only get the OCV Bonus with a specifically defined attack - say Martial Strike, any other attack made does not gain the OCV bonus. There's no way in hell you'd get me to take such a limited CSL, but I'm crazy like that.

[Hal Owen]

Re: Bypassing Armor that has Activation rolls

 

It is possible that someone else suggested this already, but why not just use the Concealment rules?

 

They may seem a bit harsh, but if you are foolish enough to go into combat wearing armor that only protects part of you, when people are shooting at you, you really should expect to get hit.

 

The Concealment rules are:

Head and Shoulders exposed, -4 to hit. (about equal to 14 or less Activation)

Half exposed, -2 to hit. (about equal to 11 or less Activation)

 

Now to mitigate this somewhat, I would say that, unless the armor is visibly and obviously there in some places, and not there in others, you would need some type of appropriate skill to pull this off.

Armorsmith

SS : Force Fields

PS : Powered Armor Design

something.

 

I wouldn't allow every Viper agent with a Blaster to be able to do this.

But, on the other hand, if you go into battle with Dr. Destroyer, with a freakin' HOLE in your armor, you should expect that part of your body to get vaporized!

 

I have always found the idea of Armor with Activation rather insane.

I know that, due to the limitations of our current technology, military and law enforcement people are not fully covered, but in most genres we are a bit beyond what is currently available.

If a normal human were actually going into battle against a known super, anything less than full coverage would be suicidal.

After the first few 'special response teams' came home with pieces melted off, there would either be mandatory full coverage armor of some sort, or normal humans would flat out refuse to willingly fight supers.

 

I know that in other genres partial coverage might be the only realistic way to go, but again, if you are walking into a full-on firefight with automatic weapons, then you are either going to stay behind hard cover (buildings, etc.) or you can expect to catch a bullet.

 

Also, for the Supers genre, I would allow "full coverage" Armor that didn't look like full coverage, and just have the SFX be that they 'always managed to position their armor in the way of the attack.'

Sort of like Captain America always gets his shield in front of attacks.

I would buy that as full coverage Armor with the SFX of 'incredible skill and experience' in using his shield.

 

Just my opinion,

 

Hal Owen.