Battlesuit Combat Computer

[Fedifensor]

I saw an old Marvel comic that had an interesting addition to Iron Man's armor. He was fighting against a psychic that knocked him out with a psi-blast. At that point, the battlesuit's combat computer kicked in, played a prerecorded message saying that Iron Man had expected that, then the battlesuit proceeded to attack the psychic.

 

Now I was wondering, how could I do this in Champions? I toyed with several options, before coming up with a method. I wanted to see if this fits within the rules.

 

First, buy extra STUN, with the OIF Battlesuit limitation. Second, have a small (5-10 point) physical limitation that when the character takes enough STUN to be negative without the bonus STUN from the suit, the robotic personality takes over. This changes the character from human to machine for purposes of psychic attacks, and changes the Psychological Limitations of the character to an equal amount of machine-appropriate Psych Lims. The character may also have lower stats in robotic form (-1/2 Limitation - not when battlesuit wearer is unconscious). The battlesuit can still be rendered temporarily inactive - if it loses the remaining STUN, systems short out.

 

For a creepier option, you could experiment with extra BODY with the OIF Battlesuit limitation, buy the automaton powers with the (-0?) limitation Only When Wearer Unconscious/Dead, and allow the suit to keep fighting even after the wearer's demise, until the heroes completely destroy the suit. The only problem is explaining why the PD and ED of the suit suddenly drop to 1/3rd their former level when the wearer goes unconscious.

[SirViss]

For Iron Man, Tony Stark probably has a hefty Gadget pool, so I just thought about this:

 

Throught the Gadget Pool, buy Multi-Form, with the alternate form being an Automaton, with a Trigger to activate. Of course both forms would have to take Body, so if you disabled the Automaton version poor Mr. Stark probably isn't doing to well...

 

Personally, I think that would be cheesy, but in comics, your allowed...

[Hermit]

Or you could by 'Position Shift' with your flight, then by images (to sound) and an Energy blast both with a trigger advantage, when knocked out. The suit just seems to stand there, speaks, and fires at you.

 

Not sure it's the BEST way, but it is a way.

[Fedifensor]

"Throught the Gadget Pool, buy Multi-Form, with the alternate form being an Automaton, with a Trigger to activate."

 

I was going for the KISS (keep it simple, ...) approach, rather than something complex. Besides, I dislike using Multiform everytime something changes with a character - it's cumbersome, and requires a completely separate character sheet.

 

Also, isn't Multiform disallowed in VPP's?

[SirViss]

Could be. Still a bit new at Hero, and I din't look it up in FRed first...

[Pattern Ghost]

Second, have a small (5-10 point) physical limitation that when the character takes enough STUN to be negative without the bonus STUN from the suit, the robotic personality takes over. This changes the character from human to machine for purposes of psychic attacks, and changes the Psychological Limitations of the character to an equal amount of machine-appropriate Psych Lims. The character may also have lower stats in robotic form (-1/2 Limitation - not when battlesuit wearer is unconscious). The battlesuit can still be rendered temporarily inactive - if it loses the remaining STUN, systems short out.

 

The main problem with this approach is that you're gaining advantages as a part of a Disadvantage.

 

I'd say buy a Duplication with Trigger and the appropriate limitations. Would have to check the rules on Duplication and see what happens when the main character is knocked out, though. (Not a power I use much at all.)

[dbsousa]

Try this...

 

Cost	Power	END
12	+30 Mental Defense (32 points total) (30 Active Points); Side Effects (Psych Lim*), Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1), Only Works Against Incapacitating Attack (-1/2)

Powers Cost: 12

 

*Psychological Limitation: Robotic Personality (Very Common; Total)

[Mavnn]

Maybe I'm being slow here, but why not buy a computer with the required skills to use the suit, Tactics and a 'Fight when wearers unconscious' program? Sure work from the SFX and all that, but sometimes the SFX and the mechanic can be the same thing.

 

Michael

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

The main problem with this approach is that you're gaining advantages as a part of a Disadvantage.

Part of the problem is that there is no game mechanic to switch character type for purposes of mental powers, without requiring an entirely new character sheet.

 

Honestly, switching to machine for purposes of mental powers is neither Advantage or Disadvantage in most cases. Sure, you can't be affected by mental powers targeting humans...but the same thing would occur if your character was a sentient robot.

 

The only other thing I can think of is allowing the character to be affected by both human and machine mental powers when conscious (a small Physical Limitation). This would signify the ability of machine-controlling powers to take over the Battlesuit. This does lead to a few odd situations though, such as when a robot-controlling power rolls high enough for "Does not remember actions".

 

So, does anyone else have ideas for simulating this without going the Multiform (or Duplication) route? Those two powers are the biggest bookkeeping nightmares in the game, and require twice as much work in character creation (since you're making two characters).

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Mavnn

Maybe I'm being slow here, but why not buy a computer with the required skills to use the suit, Tactics and a 'Fight when wearers unconscious' program? Sure work from the SFX and all that, but sometimes the SFX and the mechanic can be the same thing.

Then, how do you take the computer part out? Computers don't have STUN, which means you're effectively getting all the Automaton powers for free (since you have to destroy the suit to stop it).

[Pattern Ghost]

Originally posted by Fedifensor

Part of the problem is that there is no game mechanic to switch character type for purposes of mental powers, without requiring an entirely new character sheet.

 

Honestly, switching to machine for purposes of mental powers is neither Advantage or Disadvantage in most cases. Sure, you can't be affected by mental powers targeting humans...but the same thing would occur if your character was a sentient robot.

 

The only other thing I can think of is allowing the character to be affected by both human and machine mental powers when conscious (a small Physical Limitation). This would signify the ability of machine-controlling powers to take over the Battlesuit. This does lead to a few odd situations though, such as when a robot-controlling power rolls high enough for "Does not remember actions".

 

So, does anyone else have ideas for simulating this without going the Multiform (or Duplication) route? Those two powers are the biggest bookkeeping nightmares in the game, and require twice as much work in character creation (since you're making two characters).

 

 

I thought you were also gaining the ability for the pilot to be knocked out, and have the suit continue to function? That's a lot more bang for the buck than changing class of minds.

 

As for the problem with creating two whole characters: Aside from Skills, it's going to be the same character. Just give the PA character all of the same basic stats and powers, and some automaton powers, and ditch non-combat related skills. Shouldn't be that hard.

 

On the other hand, you might use the Only In Hero (or in this case Autopilot) ID on some additional powers. You'd probably want instachange. The Hero ID and Insta-Change combo should be sufficient justification to change the class of minds.

 

Then, you can buy extra STUN or Takes No STUN, OIHID, Trigger (Pilot at incapacitated). You might buy down some of your pilot's non-combat skills with OIHID (Pilot) to reflect that they're not available to the autopilot, if the GM allows limitations on skills. You might want to buy extra BODY as well, so the suit can be "killed" without necessarily killing the character. That part of it is a little tricky. Interesting problem.

[Delthrien]

Also...

 

Originally posted by Mavnn

Maybe I'm being slow here, but why not buy a computer with the required skills to use the suit, Tactics and a 'Fight when wearers unconscious' program? Sure work from the SFX and all that, but sometimes the SFX and the mechanic can be the same thing.

 

Michael

 

If it were to be done this way, I'd think that any system the computer would be able to use would require the character to tack on the "Usable by Others" advantage in order for the computer to access it...

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

I thought you were also gaining the ability for the pilot to be knocked out, and have the suit continue to function? That's a lot more bang for the buck than changing class of minds.

Not really. The wearer being knocked out is nothing more than special effects. The character as a whole still has STUN, and is still conscious by the rules. It's simply that when STUN drops below a certain level, the character acts differently, and is affected by a different class of mental powers.

 

For example, if the character has 25 STUN normally, and an extra 25 STUN bought in the suit, here's what happens. After the character drops to less than 25 STUN out of 50, the Physical Limitation kicks in, the character's mental category changes, and a different set of Psychological Limitations come into play. The character still has the same capabilities, unless some of them are bought with the limitation Not When Below 1/2 STUN.

 

I like the idea of buying Instant Change on a trigger. I think that's a good solution to how the mental category can change...though the change may be more than cosmetic, depending on the GM. Another possibility is Shapeshift, mental only, 0 END Persistant. Unfortunately, it's horribly expensive for the point value.

 

Maybe I'll take the question to Steve. When all else fails, ask the system guru.

[Cosmic Man]

Umm, buy the suit as a vehicle with onboard computer? The onboard computer has such programs that will allow it to know if the pilot is ko'd and to take appropriate action?

 

Now "that" is simple.

[Fedifensor]

"Umm, buy the suit as a vehicle with onboard computer? The onboard computer has such programs that will allow it to know if the pilot is ko'd and to take appropriate action?"

 

Well, vehicles don't take STUN, and I'd like to use the STUN mechanic (it's much less abusive than taking something that only takes BODY into a fight).

 

Besides, I've always thought of vehicles as (human-sized) battlesuits to be mega, ultra cheese...

[Cosmic Man]

If the vehicle takes knockback, I count stun on the pilot (and all passengers) as if the vehicles def was the person's def. That way the driver isn't "invulnerable".

 

Or, some vehicles with a "feedback" disadvantage, every hit is like the vehicle is the "armor" of the person. It takes the body, but the pilot takes the stun.

[Pattern Ghost]

I see! How about making it a Side Effect to the extra STUN? He changes class of minds as a SFX (no point value) and gains a Physical Limit to represent the AI's limitations (i.e., runs off of a program, has pre-set priorities or orders to follow, basically limits the char's actions).

 

Originally posted by Fedifensor

Not really. The wearer being knocked out is nothing more than special effects. The character as a whole still has STUN, and is still conscious by the rules. It's simply that when STUN drops below a certain level, the character acts differently, and is affected by a different class of mental powers.

 

For example, if the character has 25 STUN normally, and an extra 25 STUN bought in the suit, here's what happens. After the character drops to less than 25 STUN out of 50, the Physical Limitation kicks in, the character's mental category changes, and a different set of Psychological Limitations come into play. The character still has the same capabilities, unless some of them are bought with the limitation Not When Below 1/2 STUN.

 

I like the idea of buying Instant Change on a trigger. I think that's a good solution to how the mental category can change...though the change may be more than cosmetic, depending on the GM. Another possibility is Shapeshift, mental only, 0 END Persistant. Unfortunately, it's horribly expensive for the point value.

 

Maybe I'll take the question to Steve. When all else fails, ask the system guru.

[DocMan]

Actually, I'd say the best way to handle this is to alter the SFX. The battlesuit has an onboard AI. But instead of the AI being brought online when the pilot is knocked out, the AI is online ALL THE TIME. That means that the player really needs to play TWO characters who are both contained in the same battlesuit. The pilot is usually in control, but the AI (let's call him Copilot) points things out, gives advice, and handles things the pilot is too busy for. Copilot can also take over all systems if the pilot is knocked out.

 

Give the pilot a link so he can talk to Copilot when out of hero id, and the Battlesuit can come to him. And the press can get good shots of his public ID thanking the Battlesuited hero for saving them, thus protecting his secret ID as the battlesuited hero.

 

Accounting wise, you buy the character with the battlesuit and buy an AI that runs the battlesuit. Oh, and give both pilot and Copilot some levels in teamwork skills.

 

Doc

[Fedifensor]

"Accounting wise, you buy the character with the battlesuit and buy an AI that runs the battlesuit. Oh, and give both pilot and Copilot some levels in teamwork skills."

 

I keep hearing "have the AI run the battlesuit", but computers don't have STUN. That leads to either a rules nightmare or a game balance nightmare when the computer takes over.

[Rerednaw]

Tanstaafl

 

Part of the problem here is that you are gaining abilities and powers for free.

 

And the one rule in Hero System is that There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

 

That aside, the fact that you are incorporating an secondary independent entity not just a special effect limits your options.

 

You could buy the added stats and powers as a follower with the advantages usuable on others, only one other (partial limitation) is the suit is coded to the wearer only. Plus dependence or other disadvangtages...(Really cheesy, but possible-one option for a symbiotic suit of armor)

 

The previously mentioned AI and vehicle route is a possibility and may be more in keeping with your idea.

 

Buying Extra Stun, Takes No Stun, and other robotic advantages with the limitation only when normal stun exceeded may be another option and may be the simplest solution, albeit a bit expensive. To be fair, I'd still probably go this route. You could fudge the immunity to further mental powers depending how 'advanced' the AI is. For example Mechanon despite being an AI is subject to mental powers. If, however, you are going to insist on the immunity to mental powers then you'd how to use another design.

 

Cheers.

[Fedifensor]

Okay, I've posted the question to Steve on the Hero System rules forum, under the following heading:

 

Switching Mental Class:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4023