Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

[Phil]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I like to throw in the dungeon crawl from time to time. But they are only fun if they are either really interesting and well made or I make them myself. I'm picky that way.

 

Generally yes. However, from time to time I do try and talk my gaming group into running D&D using the old 1st edition DMG random dungeon generator. Sometimes kicking some [d100 on Encounter table IX] backside is extremely therapeutic Although to be fair it has more in common with boardgaming than roleplaying really.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I had a dungeon that was a metaphor for the Sephiroth - the tree of life. But that probably doesn't count.

 

That's funny....I've never done it, but I have had the IDEA of basing one on the old Gnostic idea of rising through the planetary spheres.....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

"Wash the sin as well as the face" says the palindromedary, but it's all Greek to me.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

It was a PBeM - the players were gods or avatars.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Well, rule number one is 90% of everything is crap.

 

Unsuprisingly most gamers are terrible at it, lack imagination, and are no more or less capable and intriguing than the general population (and in many cases are less so).

 

When you get a collection of unimaginative, socially malajusted, and frequently stupid people in a room together, sticking dice and character sheets in their hand and expecting something remarkable to transpire is an exercise in futility.

 

Good players are the exception, and finding an entire group of them doesnt just happen -- it requires a GM worth the name, a large player base, and unmerciful culling of the useless.

 

As far as your particular point though, why Dungeon Romps, the reason is they are extremely easy. Any monkey with two brain cells to rub together should be able to run a site based adventure where there are finite and limited options for flow available. Plus, the bar is set pretty low for what constitutes "GOOD" in that environment.

 

Now thats not to say that Dungeon Romps cant be fun or that in the hands of a skilled GM they cant rise above the mire to be something cool and worthwhile.

 

Its also not to say that the only thing you can do with D&D is Dungeon Romps. For instance when I ran D&D campaigns, and Ive run many long lasting ones, Dungeons were a rarity, and Dragons might as well not have existed because I hate the way D&D handles Dragons (color coded for YOUR convenience!). In fact, most of my antagonists were other humans, elves, dwarves, and other humanoids -- creatures were used as splash not a main course.

 

 

However I would be lying if I said I never had fun doing a Dungeon Romp. Classic example: the Temple of Elemental Evil is the most retarded and illogical steaming pile of drek; try reading it some time and wondering what the hell the point of it all is. It makes no sense whatsoever. However, both times Ive played in ToEE campaigns it has been an hilarious blast. Dungeon Romps can be really fun for beer & pretzels style play. It's not the height of the artform or anything, but it can be good mindless fun.

 

Trying to elevate a group of dedicated ROLL players is an exercise in futility though......best to find a new group or try to figure out if any of the group have promise and recruit them away from the group.

[liquidsnake]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Well, rule number one is 90% of everything is crap.

 

I just dont see the point of roll playing a dungeon that is the center piece of every game,I like to run games that have a good story, I use dungeons so rarely now that no one misses them.So when I do use a dungeon thats what it is,a jail not a monster roach motel.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Just noticed that you are in Santee liquidsnake; thats only about 20 minutes from where I live in Del Mar (when traffic is good), and when we play we usually do it in Miramar/Mira Mesa which is even closer.

 

Maybe next time we do a F2F we could meet to see if you would be a good fit for our style of gaming.

 

If you prefer more of a complex story focus, you wont go too far wrong with one of my campaigns.

[Eoywin]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I've played in several D&D campaigns, and I don't think we ever ended up in a dungeon.

Playing in a game with people who don't have any imagination is the worst. I think most of my characters are 'over the top' because I'm trying to compensate for some of the other players.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I'd just like to add an observation here and it isn't meant to be criticism. But a good percentage of your Dungeon Crawlers are in high school or college. They are, quite frankly, still maturing mentally and developing a capacity to become better gamers. And while by our definitions these types of games are silly and unimaginative, to them they are elaborate. Someday they will look back and laugh at their previous campaigns and adventures. Or at least, I hope they do.

[Eoywin]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I agree, Super Squirrel - A lot of new gamers or emotionally immature gamers seem to have the most problems with imagination.

When I used to larp, there was this girl named Becky and she was just an awful roleplayer. Her characters were lame, and she didn't try and start any plots. Instead of ignoring her like everyone else, my group of friends took her under our wings, and tried to teach her.

She got better - not much but she was tolerable.

I also know that I wasn't the greatest gamer when I first started either...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Well' date=' rule number one is 90% of everything is crap....[/quote']

Damn! I would definitely rep all that if I could ATM. Ruthless, but so true.

[BlackSword]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I've played in several D&D campaigns' date=' and I don't think we ever ended up in a dungeon. [/color']

Playing in a game with people who don't have any imagination is the worst. I think most of my characters are 'over the top' because I'm trying to compensate for some of the other players.

In the D&D game I am currently we started in a dungeon, heck grew up in a dungeon. But, that is part of the plot. An Ice Age came and the humans had to move in with the dwarves. Now we get assaulted from both sides, the other nasty critters that live in the dark, and the going onto the surface to try and find a new place to settle.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Damn! I would definitely rep all that if I could ATM. Ruthless' date=' but so true. [/quote']

 

Fear ye not, friend... the Shrike shall not go unrepped!

 

His third paragraph pretty much pinned down my last gaming group!

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

In my opinion - there's thinking outside the box, and retreating back into the box for safety (if afraid or unsure).

In this case, the box is boxed text in a module.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

In my opinion - there's thinking outside the box, and retreating back into the box for safety (if afraid or unsure).

In this case, the box is boxed text in a module.

The players! The players is all out to get me!

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

See, now there are at least two types of GM - Adversarial, and Collaborative. I'm of the latter sort.

 

And on a less serious note-

 

Flee! Flee for your life! They've read the rules, have the dice and aren't afraid to completely screw up your plot!

The hours you spend world building, and writing background to NPCs, only to have them go in completely the wrong direction - or nuke them from orbit... argh!

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

One thing I really like about being a player is not knowing what's around the next corner, the next plot twist, etc. It's the thrill of discovery, of uncertainty. As a GM, that's rather hard to come by -- unless the players do something unforseen, unorthodox, etc. In other words, while some GMs hate their players doing the unexpected with such passion you can probably hear their teeth gritting right now, I love having the players hand me an unexpected response. That's how I, as a GM, get my "I don't know what's coming next"-type 'fix', though in this case it's more of a "Wow...I sure didn't see that one coming!"

 

It's also the case that often times the conclusions the players come to sounds much more interesting than what I had planned, so I'll switch plots in mid-stream. Fortunately I've got enough years of GMing experience under my belt that I've never had a player notice that I've tossed my plot and ended up going with what the party came up with. Usually, they end up congratulating themselves on having managed to figure out the bulk of whatever convoluted plot I was running.

 

And on the subject of box text -- some of the most fun I've ever had at a con game was playing in a tongue-in-cheek D&D adventure entitled Revenge of the Box Text.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

One thing I really like about being a player is not knowing what's around the next corner' date=' the next plot twist, etc. It's the thrill of discovery, of uncertainty. As a GM, that's rather hard to come by -- unless the [i']players[/i] do something unforseen, unorthodox, etc. In other words, while some GMs hate their players doing the unexpected with such passion you can probably hear their teeth gritting right now, I love having the players hand me an unexpected response. That's how I, as a GM, get my "I don't know what's coming next"-type 'fix', though in this case it's more of a "Wow...I sure didn't see that one coming!"

 

It's also the case that often times the conclusions the players come to sounds much more interesting than what I had planned, so I'll switch plots in mid-stream. Fortunately I've got enough years of GMing experience under my belt that I've never had a player notice that I've tossed my plot and ended up going with what the party came up with. Usually, they end up congratulating themselves on having managed to figure out the bulk of whatever convoluted plot I was running.

 

And on the subject of box text -- some of the most fun I've ever had at a con game was playing in a tongue-in-cheek D&D adventure entitled Revenge of the Box Text.

Isn't that the adventure where you play the monsters in the dungeon and you have to stop the adventurers from clearing out the dungeon?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

See, now there are at least two types of GM - Adversarial, and Collaborative. I'm of the latter sort.

 

And on a less serious note-

 

Flee! Flee for your life! They've read the rules, have the dice and aren't afraid to completely screw up your plot!

The hours you spend world building, and writing background to NPCs, only to have them go in completely the wrong direction - or nuke them from orbit... argh!

Exactly. What if the GM is Collaborative, but the players are bound and determined to make things hell?

GM:

It is a cool, cloudy evening. The wind whispers through the surrounding wood. You feel a slight discomfort, as if someone were watching you. As you pause and turn, you notice a large owl sitting in a tree nearby. Its eyes are rivited on you, and as you notice it, it leans forward and spreads its wings into a slow and leisurely glide. Landing a few yards in front of you, it folds its wings, ruffles its feathers, and opens its beak, "Greetings, my friends. I know my appearence is a bit odd, and it is for this reason that I must ask your hel--"

Player A:

I charge the owl, aiming to decapitate it with my blade.

GM: What? Ah, it hops backward, blinking, "Wait, I'm a frie--"

Player B:

It's a demon. I throw a Fireball at it.

GM:

Dude! You guys.... :sigh:

My poor friend was honestly trying to GM a real adventure before this (more or less) happened to him (no, I wasn't one of the PCs attacking the plot hook). After that he just made it completely oddball, and threw all seriousness to the wind. It's too bad. He was a creative guy, and I would have liked to see what kind of adventure he had planned for us. Heh. I guess it was still amuzing, if a bit wacky.

 

It is a giant player conspiracy, I tell you. They are paid by some nameless deity to make the GM's life hell.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Isn't that the adventure where you play the monsters in the dungeon and you have to stop the adventurers from clearing out the dungeon?

 

Doing a quick google came up with this - http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?t=7225

 

Evidently the box text encompassed all major or plot changing decisions - the players could only make choices about unimportant decisions.

[Curufea]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

It is a giant player conspiracy' date=' I tell you. They are paid by some nameless deity to make the GM's life hell.[/quote']

 

I'd throw the law at this kind of behaviour - wanton killing = arrest = life imprisonment.

See how long roleplaying in a prison lasts before they get tired...

 

I'm a big fan of consequences. You can do anything - just know that there will be consequences.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I'd throw the law at this kind of behaviour - wanton killing = arrest = life imprisonment.

See how long roleplaying in a prison lasts before they get tired...

 

I'm a big fan of consequences. You can do anything - just know that there will be consequences.

Well, making the GM's life hell isn't necessarily something that would cause catastrophic consequences in the game world. As Dr. A. said, the players getting crazy can be fun and interesting; can even liven things up more than you expect. But still there are certain (metagame?) lines of decency beyond which players will, at times, launch a turbojet.

[austenandrews]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

I never really did dungeon romps in my early days, beyond the first module or two. After that I GMed my own game and, frankly, all that mapping was a pain. Outdoor and town adventures were not only more reasonable and interesting, but could be winged much more easily.

 

Which I actually believe accounts for much of D&D's fascination with underground adventures. Caves dug out of bedrock didn't require much effort to map out. With buildings, on the other hand, you had to make all the walls line up and whatnot. I saw my friends give up in short order trying to create buildings.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

Well' date=' making the GM's life hell isn't [i']necessarily[/i] something that would cause catastrophic consequences in the game world.

 

Oh, man, do I have stories to tell of what happens when the GM gets pissed off. You know he's mad when he announces the boss is attacking your character, throws the dice, doesn't even look at them, and says, "You're hit."

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

The players! The players is all out to get me!

[gollum]Nassty' date=' [i']nasssty[/i] playersess! They *desstroyss* our plottses! They hurtss our NPCssses!! We will desstroy them, oh yess, we will, my precioussssss....[/gollum]

 

 

 

************

 

Sorry, couldn't stop myself.

 

************

 

I run my Harn setting / Harnmaster rules campaing with a strong 'actions have consequences' theme. I once described my GMing style to SCUBA Heroine as 'I put the characters in situations, then see what happens'. The plot is not on rails. I do have ideas on how the scenes might play out, but don't stop the players if they do something else.

 

Hmmmm, combat percentage. I'm not sure. There is usually *conflict* of some type in any given session, though not necessarily of the 'these twelve orcs run from around the corner' type. This seems to make the physical combats that much more dramatic; for example, in one session the PCs had to go to the island to explunge the evil, yadda yadda. I had a master-type villain designed to handle most of the party while animated animal skeletons occupied the rest (you know, when you use them sparingly, they're *much* more dramatic...).

 

So anyway, the master villain was this otherworldly demonic creature that went through three stages of being brought down. It nearly defeated the group, but with much effort they prevailed. As the fight was winding down, with the third (physical) form of the demon about to be vanquished, one of the players decided to look back in a previously explored chamber to ensure nothing was sneaking up on them. I casually flipped the miniature I had used for the first demon form and said, 'put that in the middle of the room'.

 

Players: :nonp: :nonp:

 

Me: No, I'm just fooling with you, I'd never do that...

 

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

erm,

 

Anyway, the entire 'dungeon' was one main room with four side rooms, and one encounter with the boss demon and his skeleton minions.... but it seemed more dramatic and fun than a whole evening of 'bust the door, kill the monsters, take their treasure'.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Fantasy Adventures Or Why are we always underground...again

 

There was a reverse dungeon module out there. It is a great party game from what I hear.