"And I'll form... the head!"

[DataPacRat]

Background: Bunny, as described in the 'Quadriplegia and Cybernetics' thread, happens to be a quadriplegic with various sets of removeable, modular cybernetic limbs.

 

Now, in the vein of Voltron, Bruticus, and various sentai shows, I'd like you to consider an alternate version and, hopefully, advise me on how to build it:

 

Instead of mechanical cybernetic limbs, the quadriplegic Bunny^2 has certain... pets. Pretty much Followers, in game terms. However - these are specially bioengineered "pets", and can attach to her body in much the same way that the original Bunny's limbs do; a pair of spider-like things can unfold into leg-like shapes and attach themselves to her hips, giving her Clinging; or a dolphin-like critter can glom onto her, for Swimming. And so on, and so forth. (See the other thread for the first Bunny's sets of limbs, and let your imagination run freely as to how those limbs could run freely...)

 

So - in HERO terms, how would such a tradeoff between Powers and Followers be built?

[ghost-angel]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

I think there was another thread somewhere with this idea in it ... I'd probably start with Limitations on both the Follower and the powers it grants.

 

Something like "+Swimming" would have "Must use Dolphin Follower" or "Dolphin Robot is inaccessable" .. maybe.

[Tornado]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Duplication, powers with "Only when X has recombined". Duplicates works quite well whenever you want the people to combine, disappear, etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Sounds like a Multipower or even a Variable Power Pool. Kind of like a gadget pool except the "gadgets" are wiggly.

 

Potential Limitations:

 

* RSR (an Ego-based control skill) or Activation Roll

* No Conscious Control at a low level

* Burnout plus Side Effects (Summon wiggly assistant-creature)

* OIF, Restrainable, or OIHID

* -1/4 Sneaky. Sometimes they do things like pick pockets, goose ladies, and the like.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Instead of mechanical cybernetic limbs' date=' the quadriplegic [b']Bunny^2[/b] has certain... pets. Pretty much Followers, in game terms. However - these are specially bioengineered "pets", and can attach to her body in much the same way that the original Bunny's limbs do; a pair of spider-like things can unfold into leg-like shapes and attach themselves to her hips, giving her Clinging; or a dolphin-like critter can glom onto her, for Swimming. And so on, and so forth. (See the other thread for the first Bunny's sets of limbs, and let your imagination run freely as to how those limbs could run freely...)

 

This is a classic Hero question.

 

The first thing to do is try and remove the colour SFX from the actual game mechanics. What exactly, in game terms is happening?

 

In essence the character is gaining movement powers. Those powers are only available when a pet is present.

 

There are some questions the the GM would ask:

Is there a chance that a pet would not be available when the character needed it?

Do the pets always do what they are told?

Does it take any time for the pet to arrive once the need is present?

 

When these questions are answered then it would be possible to begin to design the game effects and decide which ones best fit what the player wants.

 

For example, if a pet is always present when Bunny^2 wants it and always does what Bunny^2 wants then it is likely that you are looking at a multipower with foci. No followers required - the animate nature of the foci is all SFX.

 

It's all a matter of looking first at the game effects that the player wants before choosing which tools you will use out of the toolbox to achieve the desired game effects.

 

Doc

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Probably the easiest and most straightforward way to simulate this would simply be to buy the pets as Followers normally, giving them whatever abilities you think they should have as Followers, etc. (In other words, don't worry about how they help Bunny^2 move... just define them as her little friends.)

 

Then have Bunny^2 buy a Multipower of Movement Powers with the Limited Power Limitation "Must have an appropriate pet available to help her." Value of this Limitation would be determined with your GM, based on how often you might be without some or all of the pets, how fragile the pets are (and therefore how likely they might be to, well, die in dangerous situations), and so on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Interestingly enough there is another thread that might help here:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37813

 

I think Derek and Doc have the right approach though: they are movement powers you can only use in limited situations, so are worth a bit of a cost discount, depending on how awkward t is to use the powers.

 

Potentially, especially if you have quite a few 'followers' and they can all attack on their own this construct may be a bit abusive. In addition (technically) you should lose the character points if a follower gets scragged.....so you COULD build it as summons, with the sfx that the 'pets' already have to be manufactured, and your summons just allows you to command them. You can even change WHAT you summons if you buy the variable advanatage, possibly limited so that you can only make the changes in a lab.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Duplication with Side Effects.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Let's try an example build.

 

Extra Limbs. Restrainable -1/2, RSR (Ego-based control skill) -1/2, No Conscious Control (sometimes gets a little out of hand) -1/4, Side Effects: Temporarily Loses Power plus Summon Wiggly Tentacled Extra Limb Creature -1/2(?). 2 Real Points.

 

If she misses her skill roll, the Extra Limb critter hops off and goes about its business. I'm assuming she's got a lab with cloning vats and such at home where she keeps a ready supply of wiggly tentacled extra limb creatures, so if hers crawls off and gets itself smushed she can go back and get another. The Summoned critter is maybe not slavishly loyal (maybe loyal, but whimsical and mischievous) and can gross out anyone who is squeamish. Note that the Summon is the Side Effects, so it only goes off if you fail to control the critter (fail your RSR).

[JmOz]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

My method for the whole voltron thing is this:

 

Take Black lion

Give him Multiform (Into Voltron), a -0 or -1/4 lim only change form when all lions are present.

 

Give him Duplication x4 (Red, blue, green, Yellow Lions) with the -0 always on lim, probably should have inherent as well

 

Mechanicaly Black Lion is the "base Character", he duplicates to form his fellow lions, all of the lions disapear when Voltron shows up, the lim on MF makes sure it happens

[prestidigitator]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Duplication with Side Effects.

Oh, or Summon with Side Effects. Whichever is more appropriate based on the other natures of the beasties and how you want to play them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

My method for the whole voltron thing is this:

 

Take Black lion

Give him Multiform (Into Voltron), a -0 or -1/4 lim only change form when all lions are present.

 

Give him Duplication x4 (Red, blue, green, Yellow Lions) with the -0 always on lim, probably should have inherent as well

 

Mechanicaly Black Lion is the "base Character", he duplicates to form his fellow lions, all of the lions disapear when Voltron shows up, the lim on MF makes sure it happens

Oh. How about just Multiform with Duplication that is Linked or has Lockout (whichever)?

[DataPacRat]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

I'm paying close attention to the thread, even if my HERO-fu isn't good enough to make any practical suggestions yet.

 

 

I like the Voltron example above, and think it has potential. However, imagine this scenario - there's an extra pair of lion robots, who can replace the usual arm robots, who are left aside for that particular transformation. (Maybe instead of a Blazing Sword, they can Form... Blazing... Shield!) Would that make any difference to the way the power is built?

[JmOz]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

I'm paying close attention to the thread, even if my HERO-fu isn't good enough to make any practical suggestions yet.

 

 

I like the Voltron example above, and think it has potential. However, imagine this scenario - there's an extra pair of lion robots, who can replace the usual arm robots, who are left aside for that particular transformation. (Maybe instead of a Blazing Sword, they can Form... Blazing... Shield!) Would that make any difference to the way the power is built?

 

More duplications would be required (to cover Orange and Purple lions =) )

 

Also more Multiforms (one for each combo)

 

Each Multiform would need duplication for all of the lions not used

 

The basic lim changes to "needs appropriate lions"

[Jaxom]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

So, if you can duplicate to form the lions you need at any time, how is this a limitation any different than, say, "Takes Extra time: Full Phase"?

 

Doc had it right above. Screw the special effects for a few minutes and define the actual game effect. Is this just a skill or power only usable when the right (mobile) focii are available? Do the parts ever do anything on their own or are they really just focii? If they can do things on their own are they henchmen (run by you as independent entities), slavishly loyal summons or free-willed things run by your GM (summoning)?

 

Duplication seems appropriate to me only if you're talking about some sort of protoplasmic being that throws a blob on the ground, molds it into a leg and then reattaches it since the premise behind duplication is that something originates from the PC.

 

A Multiform is certainly a reasonable way of doing things as well if this is something that really cannot be hindered by external beings or forces...

 

It really is going to boil down to how you want the universe to be able to modify the powers you're going to use.

[EverKnight]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

One thing to be aware of when defining the pets as duplicates or followers is the potential loss of points of the pet dies. When a duplicate dies that duplicate is lost and the points cannot be reasigned, though points can be put in to increase the multiplier for number of duplicates so it does not cost too much to replace.

 

Followers are also lost but may be replaced after a long time. This fits if the nature of the pets is such that they take a long time to replace.

 

So if destroyed pets can be easily replaced off the shelf then neither Duplicates or Followers fits in this regard; unless the GM hand waves the problem away of course.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Duplication seems appropriate to me only if you're talking about some sort of protoplasmic being that throws a blob on the ground' date=' molds it into a leg and then reattaches it since the premise behind duplication is that something originates from the PC.[/quote']

 

And you were doing so well until you got here. Duplication is again simply a game effect where you have two beings when before you only had one. They can be identical or substantially different but there is no implication in the power that the duplicate has to originate from the PC.

 

Everything else you said I agree with!

 

 

Doc

[Jaxom]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

And you were doing so well until you got here. Duplication is again simply a game effect where you have two beings when before you only had one. They can be identical or substantially different but there is no implication in the power that the duplicate has to originate from the PC.

 

Ok, then what distinction would you draw between Summoning and Duplication? If you want the 5 (or 7 or 20) lions of Voltron then Summoning assumes that they exist somewhere for you to summon (maybe in this universe, maybe in another). Duplication implies that they simply don't exist and spring into existence on the whim of the main PC either by physical splitting or mental manifestation or *something*. The problem that I see with Duplication as compared to something like a focus is that the object truly does not exist anywhere, this universe or any other, until the character decides that he want to use a specific power and then he creates the thing he needs to trigger the power. That seems like both a silly load of work designed to create something where the player should be using either a Multipower, Multiform or just inherent powers and a means of gaming the system horribly to create tons of duplicates for different powers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

...Summoning assumes that they exist somewhere for you to summon (maybe in this universe' date=' maybe in another).[/quote']

I've never seen that SFX restriction on Summoning. The Power is, in fact, often used to do things like create animated objects from inanimate ones. That doesn't really fit the whole, "brining something from some other location," concept. Summoning simply has a game effect of bringing a character into play that was not in play previously. The SFX can be that the character is brought in from somewhere else, created on the spot, or numerous other things.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

If you want the 5 (or 7 or 20) lions of Voltron then Summoning assumes that they exist somewhere for you to summon (maybe in this universe' date=' maybe in another). Duplication implies that they simply don't exist and spring into existence on the whim of the main PC either by physical splitting or mental manifestation or *something*. The problem that I see with Duplication as compared to something like a focus is that the object truly does not exist anywhere, this universe or any other, until the character decides that he want to use a specific power and then he creates the thing he needs to trigger the power. That seems like both a silly load of work designed to create something where the player should be using either a Multipower, Multiform or just inherent powers and a means of gaming the system horribly to create tons of duplicates for different powers.[/quote']

 

You're attributing special effects to Powers.

 

Neither Summoning nor Duplication assume anything per the rules. Various campaign worlds might assume that Summon is taking creatures from elsewhere. Various campaign worlds might assume that Duplication pops duplicates from out of nowhere. The descriptions of each of those Powers imply that they work in those ways, but the system by no means requires it.

 

Use Duplication if you want them to be considered part of the character's self.

 

Use Follower if you want them to be considered separate from the character, but you have a limited supply.

 

Use Summon if you want to be able to have an unlimited supply.

[EverKnight]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

And you were doing so well until you got here. Duplication is again simply a game effect where you have two beings when before you only had one. They can be identical or substantially different but there is no implication in the power that the duplicate has to originate from the PC.

 

Surely the fact that there are rules for dividing and recombining damage implies the duplicate comes from the character. This appears to be the distinctive point if Duplication is chosen to represent the power.

 

Summon, although it talks about summoning from other places and generally works on that assumption (rules for dispelling the summoned creatures) does not have to do this. The noteworthy effect of Summon is that the creatures are free-willed and have to be convinced to do something though you can buy the Amicable advantage to improve their attitude.

 

Followers are much more loyal but improve on their own. They earn experience points and cannot be changed once created.

 

When choosing a way to represent extra characters running around then I think it is worth bearing these points in mind.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

You're attributing special effects to Powers.

 

Neither Summoning nor Duplication assume anything per the rules. Various campaign worlds might assume that Summon is taking creatures from elsewhere. Various campaign worlds might assume that Duplication pops duplicates from out of nowhere. The descriptions of each of those Powers imply that they work in those ways, but the system by no means requires it.

 

Use Duplication if you want them to be considered part of the character's self.

 

Use Follower if you want them to be considered separate from the character, but you have a limited supply.

 

Use Summon if you want to be able to have an unlimited supply.

That's the best summary of those three rules/powers I've ever read. If I could Rep you I would, but I've got to spread it around some first.

[Jaxom]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

Use Duplication if you want them to be considered part of the character's self.

 

Use Follower if you want them to be considered separate from the character, but you have a limited supply.

 

Use Summon if you want to be able to have an unlimited supply.

 

Aye, excellent summary. Thanks for the clarification.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

That's the best summary of those three rules/powers I've ever read. If I could Rep you I would' date=' but I've got to spread it around some first.[/quote']

 

I got him.

 

I need more people to rep - there is a queue in my sig...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: "And I'll form... the head!"

 

I don't know if it's poor form to thank people for rep, but..well..thank you.