Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Agreed -- that is a handy design feature of OL's

 

 

Don't you find this kind of limiting? So if I wanted to play a crusty, veteran campaigner who is a little past his prime, and not as advantages as the other PCs to begin with -- perhaps they're super while my guy is just and experienced "normal" -- you wouldnt let me because all PCs are tied to some global standard of conceptual experience vs points?

 

You personally? No, I wouldn't have a problem with that if you had discussed the concept with me and had designed your own character. The groups I run, however, I usually have to take a vague concept from the player and churn out not only a character but a quickie background for said character as well. That's because I'm the only person who's taken the time to learn the system well enough to do that. The players, for the most part, only have limited experience with the Hero System, and are not huge comic book fans, though they still enjoy playing.

 

If I had a group like the people I find here on the boards, I would be a much happier GM. But, they're here, they're my friends, I don't mind the work and we still have fun.

 

The other hangup with the current campaign is that supers only began appearing 15 years ago, so crusty veterans are few and far between, and most of them are supervillains...

 

Matt "Still-carrying-that-Champions-torch-lookin'-for-true-believers" Frisbee

[pinecone]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

"Its better if I supervise" +3 Overall, UBO, Incantations (Loud bossy voice) ........"Turn left! Use the brake why don't you!"...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

"Its better if I supervise" +3 Overall' date=' UBO, Incantations (Loud bossy voice) ........"Turn left! Use the brake why don't you!"...[/quote']

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pinecone again.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Echoing what a lot of other folk have said, I think the price is just about right.

One BIG use I've found for larger than campaign normal amounts of Overall Levels has been in my various FH campaigns to help represent the skills of semi immortal characters. So the 400 year old wood elf scout might have a very similar skill set to the 25 year old human ranger, but the wood elf dumps 40 points into 4 overall levels and thus has a baseline ability to be good at just about anything he sits down and really focuses on. Works out rather well.

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

With an OSL, you get two 8pt levels (one in non-combat skills and characteristic rolls, one in combat) for only 10pts. It's an incredible bargain, saving 6pts (37.5% discount). When something is that good of a bargain, it's broken.

 

When making broken characters was a hobby of mine (waybackinnaday) OSLs were a great way to go. Why bother increasing skills when you can pay the minimum and tack on your OSLs whenever needed? Four OSLs is a great investment in any character. For most characters, this can represent a 50% swing in OCV or DCV during combat, plus it'll turn any 13- skill roll into a 17- "gimme" roll. Even a weak 11- skill suddenly becomes a 15- roll that's all but guaranteed.

 

On the "pro" side of the argument, an OSL costs the same as if you put the 8pt CSL and 8pt SL in a multipower. That's an 8pt base with two "ultra" slots at 1pt each for a total cost of 10pts. An OSL works exactly in that manner, too (you can only have one or the other active at any time). However, this ignores the questionable nature of putting skill levels in a multipower framework.

 

I still say it should cost more. Making it 12pts would probably be sufficient. Is 2pts really that big of a deal, though? When you start stacking them up, which is where they tend to cause the most trouble, yes. And how many of us have fought with costs and concepts to shave a single point, let alone two? It should cost more and 12pts sounds fair cost-wise.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

With an OSL' date=' you get two 8pt levels (one in non-combat skills and characteristic rolls, one in combat) for only 10pts. It's an incredible bargain, saving 6pts (37.5% discount). When something is that good of a bargain, it's broken.[/quote']

 

uh... interesting way of looking at it. If you pay 16pts for each of those they apply at the same time.

 

If you pay 10pts for 1 that applies to anything it can only work on one thing at a time... I'm not seeing how you think that's the same as two different skill levels.

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

It isn't often that any character uses SLs and CSLs at the same time (dodge that attack and think about where the nearest pizza place is...). Acrobatics and Breakfall rolls are where you're most likely to have this crop up and you can get a 3pt skill level to cover both of those. That's still a discount of 1pt.

 

I'm not saying you should spend 16pts for a CSL. I'm saying it should be more than 10pts. My reasons are that you should get some benefit for stepping up and that you can only use one at a time. Both of those are minimal, however, and a 37.5% price drop is not minimal.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

In your example 4 OSLs is 40 Points ... wouldn't you expect a similar utility from 40points in a Power?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

It isn't often that any character uses SLs and CSLs at the same time (dodge that attack and think about where the nearest pizza place is...). Acrobatics and Breakfall rolls are where you're most likely to have this crop up and you can get a 3pt skill level to cover both of those. That's still a discount of 1pt.

 

I don't think you're looking very hard for situations where you may want to use a combat skill level and a non-combat skill level at the same time.

 

- Trying to defuse the bomb/get the security door open/reprogram the death ray targetting computer/unjam your firearm while the opposition is firing on you

 

- Sneaking up on the guard (Stealth) you wish to take out in one shot so he can't raise the alarm (called shot OCV or levels to damage)

 

- driving/flying a hectic chase while firing at the other character's tires (or vehicle occupants)

 

- enhancing your OCV or DCV in combat while using your PS: Pool Player to carom a shot off one target and into another [OK, reaching quite a bit there!]

 

- taking evasive action in your tiny Starfighter while using your KS: Alien Species to try to remember what species uses ships of that configuration, followed by the right way to behave to mollify that particular alien species

 

- dodging the monster while using your KS: Supernatural Beings to deduce its weakness and/or other a science skill to come up with a weapon to defeat it (Kirk vs the Gorn, anyone?)

 

I think at least one of those off the cuff ideas would fall into pretty much any genre imaginable. Non-combat skills don't always get used out of combat. In fact, imminent or existing combat is one of the things that makes a better roll in a noncombat skill so valuable - if I wasn't in combat, I'd just take a minute, or an hour, to get the bonuses I need to get up to near-automatic success anyway.

 

Actually, I like your "this is exactly what it would cost in a Multipower" theory. That's what you have - the guy who spent 16 points can use both at once and the guy who spent 10 can only use one at a time. Allowing skill levels in a Multipower won't cause the world to come to an end - some characters model pretty interesting martial artists using that approach.

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Nope. 40 active points in a power equates to an 8D6 EB, which is the damage for an UNTIL agent's backup weapon. What can you do with that EB? Well... you can attack with it. You don't get free vision powers if the EB is based on eye-beams. You don't get free flash defense, either. You can't use it to fly or to pick locks. All it does is cause damage, maybe knockback.

 

An OSL, though, can be used to help anything. It's the skill equivalent to a VPP and it helps you in combat. If I have the skill, each OSL makes that skill's use better. If I'm in combat, then I can turn my ability to do math, remember where the nearest pizza place is, perform acrobatics, hold out against torture, gamble, talk to strangers, etc... into the ability to hit more easily or to make it harder for my opponent to hit. For a meager 2pts, I can turn a wide-reaching 8pt SL or 8pt CSL into so much more.

 

The bargain is too good, the cost is too low.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Nope. 40 active points in a power equates to an 8D6 EB' date=' which is the damage for an UNTIL agent's backup weapon. What can you do with that EB? Well... you can attack with it. You don't get free vision powers if the EB is based on eye-beams. You don't get free flash defense, either. You can't use it to fly or to pick locks. All it does is cause damage, maybe knockback.[/quote']

 

I don't think comparing the cost of OSL's to the cost of a main attack power is a valid comparison. The 40 point OSL, by definition, is only useful when used in conjunction with other abilities. Would you argue that a character who has a 12d6 Energy Blast as his primary attack is disadvantaged compared to one with a 4d6 EB as his primary attack, and 4 OSL's?

 

Some better (in my opinion) examples might be:

 

- adding an 8d6 Flash, or a 4d6 DEX Drain, to your existing Energy Blast

 

- raising your existing EB by 8d6

 

- adding +20 PD/+20 ED would be pretty useful in most games as well.

 

- let's use that 40 points to buy +20 DEX (after getting 20 back for the Speed rebate)

 

- or maybe pick up +4 Speed

 

- We could make that 12d6 EB into a 13d6 EB, 0 END, or a 16d6 1/2 END EB for the same 40 points (or substitute other +1/2 or +1/4 advantages - 13d6 1 hex area accurate, perhaps, or make it Armor Piercing)

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

While any of those things may be useful, they are not universally useful (SPD being the closest). A single OSL can aid any roll outside of disadvantage-based rolls (e.g. burnout, activation, enraged, berserk, etc.).

 

The OSL also is not a concept-breaker like many of the examples you just provided and it won't push a character out of the "Rule of X" for a game or its active point maximums.

 

Just ask yourself the simple question, what's it really worth to add the entirety of an 8pt CSL's functionality to an 8pt SL? Would you honestly expect to pay no more than 2pts for such a massive increase in functionality? IMO, you're gaining a far wider range of ability than a mere 2pt bump in price should confer.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

While any of those things may be useful, they are not universally useful (SPD being the closest). A single OSL can aid any roll outside of disadvantage-based rolls (e.g. burnout, activation, enraged, berserk, etc.).

 

The OSL also is not a concept-breaker like many of the examples you just provided and it won't push a character out of the "Rule of X" for a game or its active point maximums.

 

Just ask yourself the simple question, what's it really worth to add the entirety of an 8pt CSL's functionality to an 8pt SL? Would you honestly expect to pay no more than 2pts for such a massive increase in functionality? IMO, you're gaining a far wider range of ability than a mere 2pt bump in price should confer.

 

 

Look at it this way:

 

40 Skills Multipower

u4 +5 with All Combat

u4 +5 with All Skills

==

48

 

 

The math of something which is not usable at the same time as something else is indeed +2 pts.

[Furry Fox]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Just ask yourself the simple question, what's it really worth to add the entirety of an 8pt CSL's functionality to an 8pt SL? Would you honestly expect to pay no more than 2pts for such a massive increase in functionality? IMO, you're gaining a far wider range of ability than a mere 2pt bump in price should confer.

 

I would imagine that 10 points would be the most that any character would have to pay for a mere +1 increase even if it is across the board. Non-combat skills are heavily discounted in the Hero world. This makes sense as the focus on Champions is being a hero and basically fighting super-villians not using skills necessarily. Thus players are encouraged to improve their non-combat skills as well and are given an incentive to do so.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Just ask yourself the simple question' date=' what's it really worth to add the entirety of an 8pt CSL's functionality to an 8pt SL? Would you honestly expect to pay no more than 2pts for such a massive increase in functionality? IMO, you're gaining a far wider range of ability than a mere 2pt bump in price should confer.[/quote']

 

You don't get the entire functionality as you can't use them together.

 

To add to Whammewhamme's multipower note, what is it worth to take your 12d6 EB (60 points) and add the ability to do a 12d6 Flash (instead) ?

 

It is worth 12 points, or 1/5 of the cost of the Energy Blast, when you place them in a multipower.

 

Had you paid the full 60 points for the Flash, you could use both EB and Flash at the same time (as an MPA), so you saved 48 points by resricting yourself to one or the other.

 

The same basic point break (actually a little bit less - rounding differences) as choosing between 1 level with all combat and one level with all noncombat, versus a single overall level.

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

1. Skills, including levels, shouldn't ever be put in multipowers, due to the unbalancing effect. This has always been clear with the HERO System.

 

2. I also believe that the multipower concept is broken, providing too much benefit for not enough cost when used solely as a framework to hide multiple attacks rather than as a partially-defined VPP. This is one of the reasons it has a warning sign.

 

So, I believe that you get more than 6pts of benefit (very few people would use flexible slots for a flash in that situation) from 6pts of cost incurred to add Flash to your character. I believe you get more than 12 points of benefit for that matter.

 

Is the benefit greater than the cost? That's the simple analysis. You can compare it to other inappropriately cheap items, certainly, but it won't make it any better.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

I can see the rationale for a 12pt Overall level cost, but I think I would stick with the 10pt for the simple reason that it encourages players to use them. And that is something I want because it means the players aren't spending points for straight combat levels, which I generally find more problematic. Players buying Overall levels do so because usually because they have lots of skills, and I in my experience that usually means a more balanced character instead of a combat machine.

 

On a related note, I kind of consider Overall levels the cost savings for a skill-based character that another character might get from an Power Framework. Most skill-based characters I have seen have trouble keeping up with characters whose points are all in powers, so cutting them a break with Overall levels seems fair. This is especially so when the player has a good concept for those Overall levels. Some of my favorites have been:

 

- A psychic with Overall levels to reflect intuition

- An android with computer precision applied to any ability it has

- A soceror with an inherent luck charm

- A time manipulator who uses Overall levels to "move up the time chart" when performing an action

 

just my 2 cents.

 

__________________________________________________________

"Trust me, I know what I am doing." - Sledgehammer

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

I'm just not seeing how a 10pt OSL is better than an 8pt SL for skills-based characters. Nor am I seeing how an 8pt CSL is unbalanced, but a 10pt CSL that can also be used for any other roll (outside of disadvantage-based rolls) is somehow balanced.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

I'm just not seeing how a 10pt OSL is better than an 8pt SL for skills-based characters. Nor am I seeing how an 8pt CSL is unbalanced' date=' but a 10pt CSL that can also be used for any other roll (outside of disadvantage-based rolls) is somehow balanced.[/quote']

 

In combat it isn't (unless maybe you are fighting in the dark and need the boost to your PER roll). But it means you don't have to spend huge amounts of points to make yourself non-combat-skillful, and then worry about how you are going to survive combat. You get to kill two birds with one stone.

 

___________________________________________________

"Trust me, I know what I am doing." - Sledgehammer

[Trebuchet]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

In combat it isn't (unless maybe you are fighting in the dark and need the boost to your PER roll). But it means you don't have to spend huge amounts of points to make yourself non-combat-skillful' date=' and [i']then[/i] worry about how you are going to survive combat. You get to kill two birds with one stone.

Exactly. It is the flexibility provided by Overall Levels that make them a good value.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

2. I also believe that the multipower concept is broken' date=' providing too much benefit for not enough cost when used solely as a framework to hide multiple attacks rather than as a partially-defined VPP. This is one of the reasons it has a warning sign.[/quote']

 

This is by far the most common use of a Multipower. If it were considered unbalanced, one would think there would be far fewer example characters using that very ocnstruct, and that the book would somewhere warn against them.

 

So' date=' I believe that you get more than 6pts of benefit (very few people would use flexible slots for a flash in that situation) from 6pts of cost incurred to add Flash to your character. I believe you get more than 12 points of benefit for that matter.[/quote']

 

60 Multi Pool

6 u12d6 Energy Blast

6 u12d6 Flash

 

72 points total cost

60 12d6 EB

 

12 Cost of converting EB into Multipower of Flash and EB using Ultras

 

Using flexible slots it would cost 24 points, but very few people would use flexible slots, as you note.

 

Is the benefit greater than the cost? That's the simple analysis. You can compare it to other inappropriately cheap items' date=' certainly, but it won't make it any better.[/quote']

 

The only relevant comparison that can be made is to other abilities one can purchase under the Hero System. The Multipower is such an ability. It is flexible in concept (much like a skill level) with the tradeoff being that it may be used for only one thing at a time (much like a skill level).

 

[i'm curious whether you believe all the other uses suggested as alternative possibilities for spending 40 points are considered "inappropriately cheap" in your model, but then I might be tempted top ask for your revised costing mechanics, since you pretty much need to rewrite the game if you're going to reprice all those abilities.]

 

The true test of whether something is underpriced is its tendency to be overpurchased, and for concepts favouring the ability to be overpowered. I don't see a preponderance of characters built with OSL's, nor do I find characters who have invested, say, 40 points into some levels dominate the game. Hence, I don't consider them underpriced.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

I don't see a preponderance of characters built with OSL's' date=' nor do I find characters who have invested, say, 40 points into some levels dominate the game. Hence, I don't consider them underpriced.[/quote']

Pretty much summing up my own perceptions, experiences, and feelings on the matter, as I noted earlier:

If there's something so good that every character write-up seems to have it' date=' or you have to seriously ask yourself, when creating a character, what's a good reason for the character to [u']not[/u] have the whatever-it-is, then it's too cheap or too cost-effective.

 

Since I don't see every character write-up (mine or anyone else's) showing up with Overall Levels as part of the build, I don't think they're too cheap.

I still think they're priced pretty much right as-is, and see no reason to change that. I've listened to all the comments both ways, from both "sides", and just don't see the need to change anything from the way the official version is now.

[bwdemon]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

The book does warn against multipowers. Just look them up and you'll see a warning. The "other inappropriately cheap items" specifically refers to multipower examples. Speaking of which, WhammeWhamme's multipower example (which is still flawed for putting skills into it and further flawed due to the multipower cost structure) was flawed. It should've been...

 

40pt base

8pt flexible slot: +5 CSL

8pt flexible slot: +5 SL

 

That's 56pt total cost for the equivalent of 5 OSLs, which only cost 50pts. You have to use flexible slots once you attempt to represent more than one OSL, because you need to represent the ability of each level to be used for different things in a single round. So, even under a broken multipower construct, you're still getting off cheaper with OSLs.

 

If you can say "its a great value" then what you're saying is that the benefit exceeds the cost.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

The book does warn against multipowers. Just look them up and you'll see a warning. The "other inappropriately cheap items" specifically refers to multipower examples. Speaking of which, WhammeWhamme's multipower example (which is still flawed for putting skills into it and further flawed due to the multipower cost structure) was flawed. It should've been...

 

40pt base

8pt flexible slot: +5 CSL

8pt flexible slot: +5 SL

 

That's 56pt total cost for the equivalent of 5 OSLs, which only cost 50pts. You have to use flexible slots once you attempt to represent more than one OSL, because you need to represent the ability of each level to be used for different things in a single round. So, even under a broken multipower construct, you're still getting off cheaper with OSLs.

 

If you can say "its a great value" then what you're saying is that the benefit exceeds the cost.

 

 

Fine.

 

8 Multipower

u1 +1 Combat

u1 +1 NonCombat

 

Hey! That's ten points exactly!

 

How odd.

 

 

Overall Skill Levels are not great value. They are just better than having horrible, horrible kludges.

 

For example:

 

10 +5 DEX, no extra SPD (or pay twenty and get +1 SPD as well)

5 +5 INT

5 +5 PRE

 

20 points. Twice as much as an Overall Skill Level.

 

However...

 

you get the +1 to all of them ALL AT ONCE, including +1 DCV AND +1 OCV.

 

And you get an extra die of presence attack/5 points of resistance (which would cost 5 points to buy separately!), and you get 5 pts worth of lightning reflexes, and it takes longer for a drain to incapacitate you.

 

 

Overall Skill Levels: Not Too Expensive. That's all you can say about them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Overall Levels are they too good or not good enough?

 

Fine.

 

8 Multipower

u1 +1 Combat

u1 +1 NonCombat

 

Hey! That's ten points exactly!

 

How odd.

 

Yup. Now buy 4 and we have 4 overall skill levels.

 

TRULY abusive? Make them IIF, so the first one costs 8 points. Now double your foci for 5 points per doubling, so instead of paying 32 points as "4 Overall Levela, IIF", you pay 28 points and get 16 of these devices (ie 16 overall levels).

 

hmmm...5 overall levels, IIF, for 40 points or 1 overall level, IIF, and have 64 overall levels for 38 points. Decisions, decisions, decisions...