Another "New Guy" Story

[kjamma4]

Sorry, I just had one more.

Yesterday, we were playing in our second session of Fantasy HERO. Basically, we had converted our existing characters from a D&D 3.5 campaign we had been playing for a while and continued using HERO. One character was sneaking up ahead of the two other characters. He came across eight goblins led by two hobgoblins, none of which noticed him. He was running low on endurance due to a combination of previous spells and combat.

He decided that he would get no better opportunity so he let loose with a mana blast (I believe it was a 6d energy blast). He rolled really well and killed the goblins outright. All of us being new players, we were taking combat really slow to learn the ropes. We read carefully through the knockback rules and were happy when the two hobgoblins were pushed back two inches, enough to slam them into the wall behind them. They fell prone and had to use their phase to get up and move. My daughter’s and my characters then stepped forward and were able to deal the death blows to the injured hobgoblins, much to the relief of the spell caster who was down on END.

The cool thing about the whole deal was that it played out perfectly in my mind’s eye. I could SEE the elf sneaking up and casting the spell. I could SEE the goblins scatter like ten pins and SEE the hobgoblins lifted off their feet and slam into the wall, landing in a crumpled heap. I could SEE them struggle to their feet, dazed, only to succumb to us taking advantage of their state. It was awesome.

[As background, I have been roleplaying for about 25 years and have played a variety of games and have had many games where I’ve felt like I was actually in the game. However, most of our recent games of D&D have lacked something and seemed like just number fests – rolling dice and simply subtracting from a hit point total (and that may be more of a slam on the way we were playing rather that the D&D system.) The recent session of HERO have been a complete reversal and I’m glad to say that the other players in my group agree.]

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Rock and Roll

 

Welcome to the goodness of HERO.

 

... you are taking a minute or so between combats to "rest up" and take Recoveries to renew your END right?

 

Either way, its really cool to see someone on the boards having that much fun with the system. Especially people new to it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

.....................being new players' date=' we were taking combat really slow to learn the ropes...............[/quote']

 

Do one of you guys want to tell him?

 

... you are taking a minute or so between combats to "rest up" and take Recoveries to renew your END right?

 

I'd leave kjamma doing it however it is working at present: sounds far more dramatic than the current rather quick recovery of END. I've often thought the current LTE rules could do with a bit of an overhaul.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Ah, that first hit of HERO goodness.

 

Glad to hear youre liking it. And btw if you are coming from D&D you might find some handy stuff on my website.....

 

http://www.killershrike.com

 

Under "HIGH FANTASY HERO"

 

or alternately:

 

http://www.FantasyHERO.com

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Sorry' date=' I just had one more.[/quote']

 

I hope that means "I'm sorry it's only one", not "I'm sorry for posting another one". I find it quite pleasant hearing someone with positive things to say about the game, especially someone new to the system. Judging by your escalating REP, I think I'm far from alone in this.

 

We hear a lot of complaints about a steep learning curve and this or that item that doesn't meet someone's desires of the game system scaring new players off from Hero. It's refreshing to hear from someone who sees it the other way, especially someone who REALLY IS a new Hero player.

 

Funny...those naysayyers don't seem to be posting to these feel-good threads.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

I'm not a naysayer, but I do complain a lot, does that count?

 

Just to join in on the chorus here, it really is rather splendid being reminded of the good bits: I know they are there, I just tend to take them too much for granted.

[Gummibear]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Sorry' date=' I just had one more.[/size']

 

Not just one more. Don't stop-its great to hear about people discovering the one true game.

 

Champions was originally created to mirror superhero comic book action. A whole crap-load of things happen in a few seconds in the comic books. Spider man jumps around then pushes his strength and end to lift the tank. Its great dealing with all that all at once.

Then everyone found out that in fact most action based games and things are actually comic-booky. So it translated nicely to everything else.

 

I look forward to hearing about your first heroic, superheroic, and other games that you play with Hero.

 

Welcome to the creamy nugat of gaming. :thumbup:

[Gummibear]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Rock and Roll

 

Welcome to the goodness of HERO.

 

... you are taking a minute or so between combats to "rest up" and take Recoveries to renew your END right?

 

Either way, its really cool to see someone on the boards having that much fun with the system. Especially people new to it.

 

Rest up!? Obviously they need to have another dozen AVs wtih soldiers and hoverbikes thrown at them if they have that kind of time.

 

Rest up indeed...

[kjamma4]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Ghost-angel said: ... you are taking a minute or so between combats to "rest up" and take Recoveries to renew your END right?

 

Unfortunately, we really did not have much time to rest up between the combats. We did take a few recoveries as we could (which was also cool – I pictured our characters hunched over, trying to catch their breath and then forging on even though they were still tired)

 

Sean Waters said: Do one of you guys want to tell him? [in reference to taking combat slow]

 

?????????

 

Killer Shrike said: And btw if you are coming from D&D you might find some handy stuff on my website.....

 

The Good News: I have been there and it was great. Really helped me. Thanks. The Bad News: The guy running our game has been there and it really helped him too!!!

 

Hugh Neilson said: We hear a lot of complaints about a steep learning curve

 

To me, that is sort of a "half-full, half-empty" argument. On the one hand, there is so much that can be done, it is a bit daunting to try to learn it all. On the other hand, there is so much that can be done, it is exciting to know that you can do most anything with just the one main rule book. We are continuously learning new rules and saying, "Whoa, that’s cool." Even better, all of the rules "make sense."

 

I first got involved with HERO at GenCon this year and had a great GM and two great players who taught us the ropes. The "roll 3d6 under" mechanism is really simple to pick up for a con game. We then were able to get into a local Pulp campaign run by one of those players who has a lot of experience (and enthusiasm). It’s hard not to learn the game in a situation like that. Our regular DM for D&D always tried to vary combat by using tactics other than just wade in and trade blows. He was very impressed with HERO’s combat options (the fact that his Pulp martial artist broke a thug’s leg with a karate move probably helped somewhat).

 

While our combat now in Fantasy HERO is taking a bit longer than it would for us using D&D, this is probably due to our newness with the system. I am sure that this will quicken as our familiarity grows. The only bad thing now is that the rest of the group is clamoring for me to run a Delta Green scenario using the HERO rules. Oh well, it’s a tough job but someone has to do it!!!

[Gummibear]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

The cool thing about the whole deal was that it played out perfectly in my mind’s eye. I could SEE the elf sneaking up and casting the spell. I could SEE the goblins scatter like ten pins and SEE the hobgoblins lifted off their feet and slam into the wall' date=' landing in a crumpled heap. I could SEE them struggle to their feet, dazed, only to succumb to us taking advantage of their state. It was awesome.[/size'][/font]

[As background, I have been roleplaying for about 25 years and have played a variety of games and have had many games where I’ve felt like I was actually in the game.

 

Curse you for making us all wax poetic about our chosen game. Ok, well I usually don't need much to do that but....That reminds me of something else.

Last year my Nanowrimo novel was about a game that I was running. It translated so easily from game to written word. Everything that happened was in the game itelf with very little disconnect from the action.

I think that is one of my favorite elements about Hero is the fact that you can really visualize whats going on in the moment better than "I attack him with my gun and do 25 HP damage..." Instead of "I half move and hold behind the crate while they shoot at me. Then I hold another half breath and snap-shot around the crate shooting at the center mass of my target." You really get a feel for the flavor and energy in the moment.

I would argue that its the same for the skills but I might not get quite the same agreement from the group on that one.

 

Once again, keep em coming.

[Gummibear]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

On the other hand, there is so much that can be done, it is exciting to know that you can do most anything with just the one main rule book. We are continuously learning new rules and saying, "Whoa, that’s cool." Even better, all of the rules "make sense."

 

How do you make a smiley jump up and down with his arms in the air in triumph? That is what I am doing right now. You have struck my all time favorite, hands down favorite part about Hero: ONE BOOK. I have a veritable library of D&D, D20 stuff that is mostly required to play. If you want to play the really cool (broken) stuff like say, an Elf Bladesinger, you had to buy the elf book. Then with D20 came 3rd ed and 3.5, and more addendums and supplements and whatnot.

Hey I totally understand-its great for marketing. But damn, what an investment.

If you have a little creativity and some extra time, you can run every single game on the planet, every genre, every character, with ONE HERO BOOK. Sure Dark Champions is cool and FH, and SH, but you don't "need" those books as such. You could whip it up on the fly once you get more familiar with the system.

Did I mention I was jumping up and down with joy?

 

only bad thing now is that the rest of the group is clamoring for me to run a Delta Green scenario using the HERO rules. Oh well, it’s a tough job but someone has to do it!!!

 

Best way to learn how to play the game isto run it. Get ready to have as much or as little detail as you want in your game.

[Zed-F]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Sean Waters said: Do one of you guys want to tell him? [in reference to taking combat slow]

 

?????????

One common complaint about Hero combat is precisely that it can be slow. Being more experienced will help somewhat, no doubt, but you may find that if it gets to be bothersome, you will need to actively take steps to speed combat up, rather than just assume it will get faster as you gain experience. There are several ways in which combat can be sped up, some more drastic than others; I believe KS's site has some of them listed. Still, the longer you stay in 'learning mode' and accept slow combat while you get familiar with the system, the more depth you'll be able to add to combat.

[Gummibear]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Do one of you guys want to tell him?

 

I think he is referencing the inherent slowness of Hero combat, at least at first. Same example of the shooting from behind the crate above.

In a standard game such as Top Secret (set the wayback machine folks!) the player says "I dive behind the crate then I shoot at the guy." This requires the player to make a to-hit roll and then move on to the next guy. Collectively this takes all of one minute, depending on how much the guy likes to jiggle his dice.

In Hero the same action could require quite a bit more time.

Acrobatics roll to get behind the crate in combat without flubbing. (30s-1m)

Waiting half a second/phase to fire (no real time but you have to wait for the others and the GM has to remember that this player is holding their phase.)

Snap Shot from behind the crate (no roll but could invoke a dex roll depending on the action occuring elsewhere)

Fire the gun (30s to 15m)

This is where most folks have issues with Hero I think. The gun firing requires the attacker to determine their final OCV (martial maneuvers, skill levels, current dex, et al)then to make a roll with the dice. Using the new deluxe hero template from Hero Designer they can then cross reference the grid and tell the GM what DCV they hit. The GM can then tell them hit or miss. IF hit then the character rolls the dice. 3d6 K with a Stun Multiple dice. Calculate the body multiply times the number-easy math but might have someone multiplying by 13 which is a bit more tricky than say 10. Then the GM has to subtract defenses that apply and calculate final body/stun, thereupon determining if the attacked character is con-stunned, stunned or dead. The average phase/action might take as much as 8 minutes. Multiply this times the four people at the table and the six bad guys, and for the sake of easy math everyone has a speed of 3, and you have the average turn taking 8 x 10(combatants) x 3 = 240 minutes=4 hours.

 

Yes combat can be cumbersome, so if you're under this time frame-you're doing good and probably using your skill levels in "Gaming" properly.

However there are some things you can do to speed it up.

 

1. Get and use Sidekick or Herotracker. They are both excellent programs that help you stay in tune with your game. As a GM you can use the paper tracking, but these two can keep track of stun, body and several other things. But most importantly they don't let you lost track of characters, an occurence which I am sad to say I have done more than a few times....shut up ghost, just don't even say it.

 

2. Use the rule of 10 or 7.

10 is an easy number to calculate, so when you roll normal damage dice group by 10 instead of counting every single dot. 10, 20, 30, 40 then calculate body.

7 is easy to calculate stun and body, but you have to become fluent in the multiples of 7. Any dice roll that totals seven on two dice will be 7 stun and 2 body. 3,4=7(3+4) stun/2(1+1)body 6,1=7(6+1)/2(2+0)

This will help you get through some of the onerous dice counting once you raise your power levels, if you haven't already.

 

These two things help me immensely when I remember to do them

(quiet ghost, quiet. Remember I have your invisible ***** in my clutches on Saturday and I'm sure that everyone has read the front page add that the LIon corp took out about pressure plates... )

 

Good luck and hope these help.

[kjamma4]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

One common complaint about Hero combat is precisely that it can be slow. Being more experienced will help somewhat' date=' no doubt, but you may find that if it gets to be bothersome, you will need to actively take steps to speed combat up, rather than just assume it will get faster as you gain experience. There are several ways in which combat can be sped up, some more drastic than others; I believe KS's site has some of them listed. Still, the longer you stay in 'learning mode' and accept slow combat while you get familiar with the system, the more depth you'll be able to add to combat.[/quote']

 

Hmm. It seemed to me that the slowness of our combat (as opposed to our accepted time of combat in our previously played campaign of D&D 3.5) was due to us looking up rules for clarification (and at this time, we like doing that because we all want to learn the rules.) We were playing 16th level characters in D&D and combat was just as slow due to each player having multiple attacks per round. I would anticipate that a 10 % reduction in time will bring us pretty close to our D&D speeds.

 

I made hit location charts for each player which include a schematic based upon Fitz's image of a knight: http://fitz.jsr.com/roleplay/hero/fantasy/highfantasyhero/index.html

which has been a great help to us. (a picture's worth a thousand words - thanks Fitz.)

 

At this point, any slowness of the combat is more than offset by the new combat options HERO presents. I'm willing to slow the game down a bit since I'm getting a lot back in trade.

 

[P.S. One other cool thing is the abundance of material for HERO on the internet. I don't want to have to reinvent the wheel and other's good work lets me spend more time playing!!!]

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

(Hmm, hmm, the new guy is posting all the things I saw and liked in HERO when I picked it up last year, one by one...SPD, END, and now Knockback...let's see if he posts "New Guy Likes PRE" to finish and then maybe "New Guy Likes PRE + Does Knockback.")

 

kjamma, your characters were 16th level in D&D and they're fighting goblins? Wow. Don't misunderstand; I'm more envious than incredulous. If my 14th level D&D team (which I'm trying to talk into HERO) faced goblins, even class-leveled ones, they'd be insulted enough to riot. That's a big reason I want to move to HERO; when you're out of a level-based system, suddenly the GM's job of keeping the world appropriately threatening (not to mention logical!) is a lot easier.

 

Is your GM (is that you?) really enjoying the HERO freedom as much as the players?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

Yep, what others have said more eloquently on my behalf: Hero combat can be slow. Mind you I quite agree - other combat systems can be just as slow in practice. It has always amused me that the bit of the game that would take least time in fact will take most time to play through - and that is try of pretty much any system.

 

It is not a criticism of Hero, more meant as a wry comment. Perhaps I should keep the wry out of happy threads Or keep the rye out of me, one of the three...

 

It is a genuine pleasure to vicariously experience your (and superklaus') joy with the system. Thank you for making a cynical, twisted old git...well...slightly less cynical:thumbup:

[kjamma4]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

(Hmm' date=' hmm, the new guy is posting all the things I saw and liked in HERO when I picked it up last year, one by one...SPD, END, and now Knockback...let's see if he posts "New Guy Likes PRE" to finish and then maybe "New Guy Likes PRE + Does Knockback.")[/quote']

 

If I do a "New Guy Likes PRE" thread, it will probably be vicariously through my son's character in the Pulp Campaign (The Wraith - a Mystery Man with a high PRE that leaves his opponent's quaking in his boots. My character is a Gadgeteer so you may see a thread entitled "New Guy Likes VPPs"!!!)

 

(kjamma' date=' your characters were 16th level in D&D and they're fighting goblins? Wow. Don't misunderstand; I'm more envious than incredulous. If my 14th level D&D team (which I'm trying to talk into HERO) faced goblins, even class-leveled ones, they'd be insulted enough to riot. That's a big reason I want to move to HERO; when you're out of a level-based system, suddenly the GM's job of keeping the world appropriately threatening (not to mention logical!) is a lot easier.[/quote']

 

Actually, we were playing 16th level gestalt characters (since at that time, we only had three players) and we were running through the old Giant series from 1st (or 2nd?) edition AD&D that our DM had converted over to D&D 3.5. We had finished that and the players and our DM had decided that high level 3.5 just wasn't providing too much fun. We were set to start up with a new set of low level characters when HERO dropped into our laps. Our DM simply took our 16th level D&D 3.5 chars and converted them to lower point Fantasy HERO chars. So, we have the same chars but converted from 16th level D&D 3.5 to low "level" Fantasy HERO.

 

Is your GM (is that you?) really enjoying the HERO freedom as much as the players?

 

I am not the GM in the Fantasy HERO game - our regular D&D DM is doing that. For background, our Fantasy HERO group has three regulars who are adults, my son who is a regular, and my two daughters who are semi-regulars/sometime players. We used to be part of a larger group who had another guy who DM-ed D&D 3.5. Our current DM was a player in that campaign and always tried to take characters who broke out of the "mold" and had feats that would capitalize on unorthodox strategies. He was not satisfied with the results. When our group split apart, he ended up being the DM and was still not satisfied. He and the other adult member in the current group had both purchased GURPS and were in the process of converting over to that system. At that point, I attended GenCon and played a Dark Champions HERO game. One of the players in that game lives near our location and he started a Pulp HERO game which we all attend. When the two other guys started in that, they were sold on HERO and instead of converting to GURPS, we have been putting HERO through the paces. If anything, they are both even more sold on HERO than I am (so I don't feel bad about shifting them from GURPS to HERO!!!) Our GM is really pleased with the options that you have in combat in HERO.

[ThatDarnCat]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

I'm not new to Hero by any means, but I'm playing in a 3.5 D&D game now and when we have a day when the GM is running late I run a bit of Champions. One of the other players has Hero experience and is going to be fine. The second loves Hero because of the shear possibilities available to the characters. The third player slows us down, but he also slows down our D&D games for the same reasons...

 

So far the game has been successful because they have been exploring their powers and after each session we have a little chat about what they liked and didn't like and how they left their characters worked.

 

Overall I believe that they will make good Hero players, though it might be a bit longer before I can ween them off D&D...

[Lucius]

Being Pedantic...

 

I also love hearing about a new person exploring the system and reminding us all what we like about it.

 

Technically, knockback is supposed to be for superheroes - but if it's working for you, by all means, keep using it! I don't see any reason fireballs and ogrish clubs can't do knockback.

 

I sometimes add knockback to fantasy spells as an option (there's an advantage, Does Knockback, that can apply knockback to powers that wouldn't ordinarily have it.)

 

Hero does seem a lot less abstract/more concrete than D&D, and will often make more sense - although that depends on the guy running the game. You'll run into a few odd things hard to do (tried to translate Magic Missile yet?) but for the most part it allows a lot more options in everything from character creation to combat.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary smiles at both ends.

[kjamma4]

Re: Being Pedantic...

 

Hero does seem a lot less abstract/more concrete than D&D' date=' and will often make more sense - although that depends on the guy running the game. You'll run into a few odd things hard to do (tried to translate Magic Missile yet?) but for the most part it allows a lot more options in everything from character creation to combat.[/quote']

 

A follow up on your comment about combat. We played another Fantasy HERO session yesterday. We were sneaking up on the ruins of a keep and there were about six gnolls and one ogre commander. I had just picked up 10 arrows of accuracy (which reduced by 4 the penalty to hit specific locations). Seeing that the ogre was not wearing a helmet, I went for a head shot (not targetting the head at -8 but the upper area at -4). Well, the arrow offset that penalty so the only thing I had to worry about was the -1 for range. Nailed him and then rolled low - actually hit the head. My damage roll was very high and I did alot of BODY and alot of STUN, enough to knock him out (although only temporarily). We were then swarmed by the gnolls and combat ensued.

 

The ogre then came to and engaged in HTH combat. The ogre was again knocked out and I was going to try to kill him when he was out. Unfortunately, a gnoll got a great hit on me and did enough STUN on me to cause me to lose a phase. The ogre came to again. Following a couple of more rounds, we were once again able to knock the ogre out, this time for long enough to do a "coup de grace."

 

The fact that we were able to target specific non-armored parts of the body, that you could be stunned without losing much BODY, that you had to spend time to recover, that you could be killed with one blow when knocked out made the combat extremely fun and "realistic."

 

Awesome game.

 

All of us had fun.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

These were the same things that made my head spin when I started using HERO.

 

Just wait until your group's wizard realizes the limits of spell flexibility.

[zornwil]

Re: Another "New Guy" Story

 

They grow up so quickly. I remember when kjamma4 was asking how to make an attack and what Kiling damage was..now he's so grown up, running a game...

 

 

Nice to see you posting!