Paladin help

[Manic Typist]

Re: Paladin help

 

Also, I just had a sudden thought.

 

What exactly is this deity like?

 

Do they want trade for the sake of enhancing cultures, increasing communication, and bettering the lives of all parties?

 

Or is it all about the almight dollar?

 

In which case, their agendas and actions would have very subtle but very important differences.

 

Even powers, such as the "No Liars Allowed" spell, would be exhibited differently. If the goddess is more benevolent, it would most likely cause any person attempting to lie to cough and splutter, or even just say the truth.

 

If they are more........ harsh, it might inflict agony upon them everytime they tell a direct lie, but they can still mislead you and use ambiguous phrases. This is representative of cut-throat wheelings and dealings, in which the goddess gives you an edge..... but if you aren't smart enough to look out for loopholes and the like..... well, she is a harsh mistress.

 

AmadanNaBriona: I love your sig. I've done some research online, but I have not been able to find anything that explains overall what the "Fool of Forth" is. I've only found excerpts of legends talking about it, not actually explaining what it represented etc. Can you offer any insights?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Paladin help

 

I dont know where people are coming from with equating a god of trade with truth based abilities. Truth and trade are two things that seldom go together. If every transaction were perfectly honest, no one would ever make a real profit. Getting the most for the least, buying low selling high -- that is the basis of most trade.

 

The benefit of having a neutral 3rd party get involved would be more for arbitrage and making sure that contracts are expressed fully, and that once an agreement is reached both sides abide by it -- particularly when one side is less capable of enforcing its interests. Whether one side or the other (or either) completely disclosed their trading position is not really a matter of concern to the arbitrator.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Paladin help

 

I dont know where people are coming from with equating a god of trade with truth based abilities. Truth and trade are two things that seldom go together. If every transaction were perfectly honest, no one would ever make a real profit. Getting the most for the least, buying low selling high -- that is the basis of most trade.

 

The benefit of having a neutral 3rd party get involved would be more for arbitrage and making sure that contracts are expressed fully, and that once an agreement is reached both sides abide by it -- particularly when one side is less capable of enforcing its interests. Whether one side or the other (or either) completely disclosed their trading position is not really a matter of concern to the arbitrator.

Yeah, I am of much the same mind set.

I think a "Holy Enforcer" of a trade god would have some kind of abilities that'd seem SIMILAR to a truthseeking, but would be more concerned with avoiding actual fraud... misrepresentation, switched or spoiled cargos... that kind of thing... anything that'd be likely to cause major disputes to arise as a result of trade or to make the whole practice of trading look bad in reflection.

Enforcing Fair trade, not supressing the inherent nature of trade, as it were.

 

 

AmadanNaBriona: I love your sig. I've done some research online, but I have not been able to find anything that explains overall what the "Fool of Forth" is. I've only found excerpts of legends talking about it, not actually explaining what it represented etc. Can you offer any insights?

Thanks...

There is more in Lady Gregory, but the long and short of it is that the Amadan Na Briona is the bringer of madness.... his touch , as uncurable as death, brings insanity. He's a dark Faerie figure, often portrayed as a (or The) Lord of the Dark Court, and is sometimes cosidered to be analogous to the Dark King who rules in the Shadows, while the Bright Queen rules the Light. Amadan, in the original gaelic, while literally traslated as Fool, doesn't refer to a jester but rather one who acts without regard to consequences... often an idiot or madman, but always something to be regarded with caution, because his actions can't be predicted. It can be used as a mildly derogatory compliment or a viscous insult with equal facility.

If you don't want to do a lot of hard and heavy library research (finding good online references has proven difficult), go pick up a copy of Raymond Feist's EXCELLENT crossworlds fantasy novel Faerie Tale... the Amadan Na Briona has a starring role as the bad guy of the peice, and its pretty good roleplaying fodder as well.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Paladin help

 

I dont know where people are coming from with equating a god of trade with truth based abilities. Truth and trade are two things that seldom go together. If every transaction were perfectly honest, no one would ever make a real profit. Getting the most for the least, buying low selling high -- that is the basis of most trade.

 

The benefit of having a neutral 3rd party get involved would be more for arbitrage and making sure that contracts are expressed fully, and that once an agreement is reached both sides abide by it -- particularly when one side is less capable of enforcing its interests. Whether one side or the other (or either) completely disclosed their trading position is not really a matter of concern to the arbitrator.

The Truth/Business thing is probably from the pov of the tradesman. Being able to tell when someone is trying to rip you off is good.

[OddHat]

Re: Paladin help

 

The Truth/Business thing is probably from the pov of the tradesman. Being able to tell when someone is trying to rip you off is good.

 

There's also the Dale Carnegie ideal. Trade should be mutually beneficial, allowing both players to leave the table happy and eager to do business again. That model is built on the idea of developing a relationship with your suppliers and customers where everyone benefits. It works best when you expect to do business with a given trade partner over the long term. The screw-your-trade-partner approach is also very common (and has always been); it's very effective when you don't plan to do business with that customer or supplier again, or when you have a monopoly. Trade has both its light and dark sides.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Paladin help

 

The Truth/Business thing is probably from the pov of the tradesman. Being able to tell when someone is trying to rip you off is good.

That basic ability is pretty universal to clerical style magic anyway; the basic clerical Magic System in use would presumably cover that sort of ability. No need to make a specific granted ability.

[gojira]

Re: Paladin help

 

Tradesmith: These are the "priests" of the church and it is their job to do the majority of the trade agreements and such. When not forging their own, they are used as advisors for other merchants to act as a neutral party...much like an Escrow company...lol

 

Envoy: These are the paladin equivalents that are much more like the explorers of old (Marco Polo, Admiral Perry, Columbus, etc.). Their job is to find new markets and goods, map and establish future trade routes etc.

 

I'm thinking of adding in a group called Seawards that act as marines on the churches ships or hired out as guards for other ship captains. These would be laymen of the church and possibly have a land based version as well.

 

 

While it looks like you have everything pretty well wrapped up, I wanted to jump in and add Conquistador to your Envoy list. To me anyway, a Conquistador is the ultimate holy explorer. He opens new trade routes by conquering new peoples and new lands. Besides your Seawards, he is accompanied by Missionaries.

 

Missionaries minister to troops in the field under the command of a holy paladin Conquistador. Missionaries also teach the new religion to conquered people, as well as subsistence agriculture for their newly humble lives. Missionaries also build missions and help keep local populations peaceful while the Envoy maximizes trade.

 

 

I just sorta had to blurt that out. My epiphany for the day. I really like your Envoy idea though.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

S'up, y'all. Mmm... Paladins. A topic I've had to defend with more verve and verse than your average attorney protecting an innocent man. You! Stop singing Billy Joel. Moving on.

 

Truth & Business (or trade) can go together, especially in terms of making sure everyone is getting a fair shake. It wouldn't be on the Paladin to make a determination as to the worthiness of the deal, as much as it would be ensure that both parties are getting what they paid for. "Are you giving this man a bag of gold dust?" "Are you willing to pay (X)?" In a case where (X) is higher than market value, the Paladin of Trade wouldn't be concerned; they'd simply be ensuring that the trade was done properly and fairly.

 

I can see where if the deity promotes trade and growth, than forces and groups such as Yakuza/Mafioso/Triads/etc. would be acting in direct competition to fair development of said trade. These things the Paladin would merrily stand against and draw his sword for. People who thumb down scales, who appraise things unfairly, there's so much crime & corruption within the confines of 'business' that it's fairly easy to see how this interpretation of the Paladin would never be out of work.

 

On the idea of Seawards, aka, Merchant Marines, heck yes. It also depends on the commonality of Paladins, their squires, etc. Are they seen often? Are they as numerous as say a Knight Errant? Or is a Holy Warrior uncommon, and more often you have soldiers in the employ of the church and a clergy to direct them? You have multiple choices here in terms of approach. If they're rare, then you may appoint one as 'leader' (aka Champion) for a particular vessle and have them lead all others into combat.

 

So I'm going to go against the grain here and say that in the promotion of healthy trade, by all means, the Paladin should be able to Detect Raw Deal.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

In my initial vision, I pretty much saw them as KS saw them (Tradesmith/Envoy), the Seawards are laymen soldiers who are hired out by merchants/nobles to either guard establishments (land version), guard caravans (again, land version), or accompany seagoing vessels.

 

They aren't necessarily blessed by the goddess or have any "natural" ability to "cast" clerical like spells or paladin like abilities, but are highly trained in the "arts of guarding" and combat.

 

In the overall game world, the Sugan (Sumerian style minotaurs) who worship this goddess (among many others) were once a distinct nation, but have sense been dominated by the Kingdom of Karthold and now live in their own little districts along the western coast of the Kingdom. This happened a long time ago and none of the Sugan living today remember a time when they weren't a part of the Kingdom...though there are those that are secretly trying to foment a rebellion.

 

They still worship their own gods, predominately, though many have taken to paying lip service to the Celestial Church (a Catholic Church knock-off), particularly since the Celestians have been taking a much more hardline approach against other religions under the latest Pontiff.

 

Since the population of the Sugan is rather low the proliferation of their annointed servants (people with actual faith-based abilities) is quite low. Laymen will be in the vast majority, particularly as more and more Sugan are turning to Celestianity (?) out of choice or necessity.

 

Among the three races that are considered to be conquered and assimilated by the Karthinians, the Sugan are generally the least discriminated against. The Tuhu are considered to be little more than vermin and the Brethiel consider themselves to be still independant so long as the Kingdom stays the hell out of their forests.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

Before I post, query: When you say "Paladin" what, in non-game-terms, do you mean? i.e., what are you attempting to portray?

[Steve]

Re: Paladin help

 

In the overall game world, the Sugan (Sumerian style minotaurs) who worship this goddess (among many others) were once a distinct nation, but have sense been dominated by the Kingdom of Karthold and now live in their own little districts along the western coast of the Kingdom. This happened a long time ago and none of the Sugan living today remember a time when they weren't a part of the Kingdom...though there are those that are secretly trying to foment a rebellion.

 

They still worship their own gods, predominately, though many have taken to paying lip service to the Celestial Church (a Catholic Church knock-off), particularly since the Celestians have been taking a much more hardline approach against other religions under the latest Pontiff.

 

Since the population of the Sugan is rather low the proliferation of their annointed servants (people with actual faith-based abilities) is quite low. Laymen will be in the vast majority, particularly as more and more Sugan are turning to Celestianity (?) out of choice or necessity.

 

It's funny, but I keep getting this image in my head that the Sugan sound a bit like Jews in Dark Ages Europe, although better respected. It would certainly give an interesting role-playing hook for them.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

Ah, yes, the big question.

 

When I think "Paladin" I think defender of the faith. In the greater context, I think of someone who is much more pious than your traditional worshipper, yet isn't the type to sit in a temple and tend to a flock of worshippers.

 

This sets a fine line between a templar type and an evangelist but those differences are generally mediated by the god(dess) being worshipped. In the case of Nantunas, the "paladins" (understanding that the term is not used a generic job title) are the equivalent of an entrepeneur and door to door salesman, while the Tradesmiths (priests in this case) are the escrow companies and neutral arbiters of trade agreements.

 

Where as Pola the (Chaotic Good) goddess of War, Bold Causes and Valor would have no real "priesthood" but be filled to the gills with "paladins".

 

And don't get me started on Otames, the (Neutral Evil) goddess of Messengers, Murder and Fear...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

Okay, so we're eschewing the general concept of 'Paladin' as defined by D&D and you're saying (if I read this right) - A Holy Warrior in service to a Higher Power. Plain & simple. Doesn't need to be LG, doesn't need to cast spells, Lay on Hands, none of that, yes? That would drastically change my response. I see the word "Paladin" and I have a knee-jerk reaction to it.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

Yep, that's essentially it. I've always thought it was odd that only good gods had holy warriors.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

It's funny' date=' but I keep getting this image in my head that the Sugan sound a bit like Jews in Dark Ages Europe, although better respected. It would certainly give an interesting role-playing hook for them.[/quote']

Heh, interesting. My wife is descended from a Jewish line, maybe I should hit her up for idea's.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Paladin help

 

In my group, I've always refered to characters devoted to the service of a diety that gain abilities but are not exactly priests as being "Devoted" or "Dedicated" (interchangeably). This can take many forms.

 

Back when I first swtiched an onging Greyhawk game to the HERO System (when I did the first conversion from AD&D 2e to HERO 4 back in 95-96), I did up custom Packages for such characters for all the major and many of the minor dieties where it seemed likely the diety would support such a concept. It was a popular extention among my players and it added a lot of verve to the setting as well that was previously lacking. Where possible I worked with what was available in the cannon to extrapolate something, and where not possible I just made it up. Also, reexamined in this context Rangers that got spells had to be dedicated to a Nature diety, and were in effect "paladins" of that diety as well.

 

Some of the most memorable groups that would be considered "Paladin"-eque in D&D terms were the Torchbearers of Rao, the Brotherhood of the Axe (Heironeous), Lords of the Leaf (Ehlonna), Slayers of Hextor, Cudgels of Cuthbert, Doorwardens (Dalt), the Mummers (Olidimarra), and so forth.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

My view rangers is exactly the same as well.

[Susano]

Re: Paladin help

 

Okay' date=' so we're eschewing the general concept of 'Paladin' as defined by D&D and you're saying (if I read this right) - A Holy Warrior in service to a Higher Power. Plain & simple. Doesn't need to be LG, doesn't need to cast spells, Lay on Hands, none of that, yes? That would drastically change my response. I see the word "Paladin" and I have a knee-jerk reaction to it. [/quote']

 

This would be my definition. So evil gods can have paladins. I also like the idea that paladins are the church's (any church) version of military "special forces."

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

Using Paladins as a military force is an ongoing theme in my primary campaign, and is one that is constantly revisited. The beef I have here comes from d20, not from a general opinion. In d20, when someone says "Chaotic Good Paladin!" I freak, because that's my sacred cow, yeah? No one likes it when people try and steal your sacred cow. However, in HERO, I have infinitely more options purely in terms of what the system can do. It changes from a lawful good code to "In service of the deity." Using your powers outside of the service to that deity means the powers don't work. Simple. You go against the grain often enough, the powers stop working until you Atone. Equally nice.

 

As I said to mayapuppies, one of the big things for me is that when someone says "Paladin" I know what that means in D&D terms; I almost prefer Killer Shrike's terminology because it won't confuse me. But I agree with you on this, Susano, that the bulk of what we're talking about are Holy Soldiers; they may have special powers, they may just be fantatical devotees. But the defination is much broader.

 

*basks in the flexibility of HERO*

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

Oh, Steve, forgot to mention this: Tales of Destiny II, yes?

[Susano]

Re: Paladin help

 

Using Paladins as a military force is an ongoing theme in my primary campaign' date=' and is one that is constantly revisited. The beef I have here comes from d20, not from a general opinion. In d20, when someone says "Chaotic Good Paladin!" I freak, because that's my sacred cow, yeah? No one likes it when people try and steal your sacred cow. However, in HERO, I have infinitely more options purely in terms of what the system can do. It changes from a lawful good code to "In service of the deity." Using your powers outside of the service to that deity means the powers don't work. Simple. You go against the grain often enough, the powers stop working until you [i']Atone. [/i]Equally nice.

 

As I said to mayapuppies, one of the big things for me is that when someone says "Paladin" I know what that means in D&D terms; I almost prefer Killer Shrike's terminology because it won't confuse me. But I agree with you on this, Susano, that the bulk of what we're talking about are Holy Soldiers; they may have special powers, they may just be fantatical devotees. But the defination is much broader.

 

*basks in the flexibility of HERO*

 

For the record, allow me to post the link to my paladin character:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/original/pmerriya.html

[Enforcer84]

Re: Paladin help

 

That basic ability is pretty universal to clerical style magic anyway; the basic clerical Magic System in use would presumably cover that sort of ability. No need to make a specific granted ability.

Sez you you big bully!

[mayapuppies]

Re: Paladin help

 

In that case I would recommend the Law' date=' Knowledge, and Protection Domains.[/quote']

I looked these over and I'm not getting the right "feeling" from them. I think I'm going to try and come up with a Trade Domain spell list. It's a bit more work, ok, it's a lot more work, but I'm hoping to get a more solid feel for me.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Paladin help

 

A Trade domain goes back to what I was saying before, about having your "Paladin" (sorry, I have to use my own framework for this, so if it's outside of your view, please steal what you need and toss the rest) should be an outstanding examplar of what this deity wants in its followers. So when I say "Paladin" I mean the following (for HERO terms) -

 

- A follower of a deity who fulfills a warrior capacity, specifically in service to the deity and the advancement of the deities' goals and objectives.

 

- A person who, through their devotion, has curried favor with a deity/higher power/themselves (some Paladins in d20 have no God, they simply have a higher calling, and don't try to explain why, they just do. I'm accounting for that here). Said devotion/calling grants them abilities above & beyond a Normal.

 

- Those powers are built to support and forward the Gods/Personal agenda. In this instance, specifically, a deity of Trade. So what is "trade" for this deity, and how would one promote it? According to Mr. Dictionary, we can easily call trade "The exchange of goods, the buying & selling of commodities." Simple enough.

 

So we can throw out 'tithe.' This Paladin, while in service to a higher deity, probably is naturally concerned with retirement. You can't kill monsters forever. You gots to get yours, I gots to get mine. Mission objectives for this servitor would include, but not be limited too:

 

- Defense of a trade route under seige

- Legal liason for new business partnerships

- Bodyguards for higher-ranked tradesman who are in service to the God.

- Bounty Hunters who ferret out snake oil salesmen.

- Guarding a new road and attempts to foster positive alliances with hostile forces, a variation on the liason theme.

- New trade works best in peacetime. Business is best during war. Guarding a supply line, engaging in battle while showing off fancy new weapons (gotta make a living) and defending scientists developing weapons, for trade to the home nation, to use in combat, would all fall under this view.

 

Now we've got a basic job description, and we've covered peace & war. Paladins do their fair share of meting out justice, which would certainly cover any shaky deals, etc. They could act as mediators in disputes when people get cheated as easily (or possibly more efficiently) than a Cleric could, along with the backing of the church to enforce the law. They want trade to prosper, which means everyone is treated fairly (base alignment: LN).

 

Healing wouldn't really apply here, yeah? Not their thing. You can give it to them, and their Divine, technically, so they might learn it, but I wouldn't grant it as an initial power.

 

Smite Liar would be handy, though. Only usable in God's Service, must have been actively lied to, or have evidence that the person has lied (i.e., an evil tradesman, etc.). +2d6 Deadly Blow would be a good foundation. I like the flavor of that.

 

Read Between the Lines: Detect Lie, requires concentration. No gestures, etc. Can only detect intentional lies; in other words, if the Paladin knows what they're hearing is false based on prior evidence, but the speaker believes what they're saying, we're judging what they tell from their POV, not "THE TRUTH." This actually helps, because the Paladin can easily ascertain whether the speaker is totally complicit or just a victim.

 

Trade on Swift Wings: Improved speed. This class would also get a Mount. Trade on Swift Wings should confer to the mount as well. Time is money, baby.

 

Silver Tongue: +2 to all rolls involving trade and commerce. "So I was in this dungeon, and came across this. Interested?"

 

Skills should include Knowledge: Law, Area Knowledge: Trade Routes, Heraldry: Blazons & Shields (to recognize trade insignia, specific traders' and merchant's markers).

 

I would grant them: Protection, Law, Truth, and if you have it, Time. Some more thoughts. Hope they help!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Paladin help

 

You might want to check out the Sortilege Magic System on my site, one of the subschools is based on Trading:

 

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/sortilege.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/Powers/Spells/Spells.asp?Type=Arcane&Subtype=Sortilege&Category=Trading