Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

[Mister E]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Since you can use XDM to teleport anywhere in a given dimension... really Teleport could never hope to compete, being restricted by distances (Mega-scale, or otherwise). What we need, seriously, is a Universal Scale Advantage, that can be applied to Teleportation and other Powers, (like Detects), which gives them the scope and range of the entire Universe.

[Lucius]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Now this is a valid answer.

 

Presuming this is what you would actually get, is it really worth a +1 value?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

You know, I think maybe it is.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is ruminating.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

*sigh* I now, in advance, that this is probably not a conversation I want to revisit, but there are a few things (as the new guy, who's looking at this from a very different angle) that I want to add here.

 

1. Before we get too off track, damage comes in three flavors; STUN, NORMAL and KILLING. You could design a damage system around that, except that Hand Attacks automatically get their -1/2 lim for being No Range, and Killing Attacks do not. If that were corrected, then yes, you could lump them together as "Damage Classes" but they aren't doing that yet.

 

2. I'm one of those people that think Killing Damage should kill you. As written, it does enough STUN in general to be... well, to be NORMAL damage for puposes of averages. Which drives me nuts. You have 1/3rd the dice and get the same net effect in a straight DC - DC comparison. Bleh. Let my killing damage kill people.

 

3. Now, on topic. TP vs. EDM. As I mentioned before, EDM is built to handle all 'outside the box' thinking, whereas TP is a movement power. You cannot make a TP Constant, because it doesn't require an attack roll. I don't know why you want too. If you want to represent 'intervening space' then you might not want TP, although you could build it:

 

TP (From Here to There); UBO (+1); Crosses Intervening Space (-1), Extra Time (-1/2, Two Full Phases which can seem much longer based on plot purposes).

 

But now it isn't TP anymore. TP is BAMF. Here to there, done. EDM can mean all sorts of things. It can cover a variation on Warp Drives, it specifically covers time travel and moving among dimensions, and is costed out to do that. It isn't a 'movement power' in the traditional sense from my reading of the rules.

 

What could reasonably be asked is: Why isn't TP lumped in with Flight, Tunneling, Swimming & Running? TP is built on the same 2:1 ratio as Flight, which makes it flight without wings and not being in the air. Then you purchase a massive NCM to cover large spaces. And it costs END, which I don't know if EDM does or not.

 

So just reading the rules from over here, you're digging in the wrong place. TP is a standard movement power with a series of special effects. EDM is a separate animal.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

3. ...You cannot make a TP Constant' date=' because it doesn't require an attack roll...[/quote']

Okay, I'm going to address this once more. Continuous may be applied to any Instant power, even ones that don't have an attack roll.

 

This +1 Advantage allows a character to use an Attack Power (or other Instant Power) on continous basis without having to make a new Attack Roll.

Obviously, when applied to Attack Powers, this advantage removes the requirement of an Attack Roll every phase. However, when applied to "other Instant Powers", it simply makes the power Constant, since those powers don't require a attack roll to start with.

 

If it only applied to Attack Power or Powers that had an Attack Roll, then the addition of, "(or other Instant Power)", wouldn't have been added to the text. The rule would have stood on its own without that added text.

 

But now it isn't TP anymore. TP is BAMF. Here to there' date=' done.[/quote']

And again, I bring up Science Fiction has many time shown Teleporation that isn't that way. Most common is the (TOS) Star Trek Teleportation. Unfortunately, the EDM solution doesn't work for that, since the Teleporation was easily blocked by tons of rock. So obviously the energy is traversing the intervening space. Now if you want say that that device wasn't Teleporting people around, fine, what do you want to call it.

 

Zornwil had it right though, Teleportation was created for the Superhero Genre, but now that the system needs to do Science Fiction, Teleportation should handle those SFX as well.

 

What could reasonably be asked is: Why isn't TP lumped in with Flight' date=' Tunneling, Swimming & Running? TP is built on the same 2:1 ratio as Flight, which makes it flight without wings and not being in the air. Then you purchase a massive NCM to cover large spaces. And it costs END, which I don't know if EDM does or not.[/quote']

Precisely, Teleportation has some elements of Flight, Running, and Leaping within its mechanics.

BTW, EDM, also costs endurance.

 

I just think they should have classified Teleportation as a Constant Power like the others, since during play, movement and attacks are resolved the same.

 

Characters A and B have the same SPD and act on the same phase.

Character A runs from location 1 to location 2 and is constantly running.

Character B teleports from location 3 to location 4 and is constantly teleporting.

Next Phase

Character C attacks both Character A and B by spreading an attack.

Both character's are hit at locations 2 and 4.

Characters A and B continue moving using running and teleporation...

Both movements are resolved the same per phase despite one being constant and the other being instant.

 

There are differences as far as what can happen during the segments inside the movement phase, but that has no effect on the Constant/Instant as far as movement is concerned.

 

So again, I don't see any reason that Teleportation should be classified as Instant, since it doesn't grant you anything beyond other constant powers.

 

They all have a Half/Full/Noncombat Movement.

They all allow the character to be attacked at the beginning of the next phase (range permitting).

They all allow the character to continue moving in the same movement mode at the beginning of the next phase.

 

I just don't see any difference as far as the mechanics go.

 

Am I missing something here?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

What you're missing is my way of thinking. In my head, the point of TP is that - unlike other movement powers - it IS instant. FOOM, there you are. Effectively I'm saying just because you CAN place Continuous (+1) on the power, doesn't mean it's appropriate. If I were to model a TP as taking Extra Time... well, that's how I'd model it. Extra Time. If you want something to occur between Here and There that's appropriately dramatic, you can do that, too.

 

But the doing is entirely on you as the mechanic. I don't see a need to make TP Constant, because to me, that it ISN'T constant is what differentiates it from other forms of Movement (Fly, Run, Swim, Tunnel). All four of those are Constant - they happen every turn, they cost END, no problem. If a TP were 'Constant' you'd always be in Flux, you'd never land.

 

If that SFX is what you want, then we're talking Desolid with gross amounts of running (only while desolid) which could just as easily be made a TP that's crossing intervening space. I see what you're saying, that RAW says Continuous turns an Instant to a Constant, I just don't see how that mechanic creates the effect you want.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Hang on. I caught something.

 

The text you quoted specifically states "without having to make a new attack roll." Which says to me an attack roll is required. I'm asking Steve, I want his opinion. If I'm right (and I think I am) then TP can't take this because no attack is required anywhere - if you're right, then I need to see a build where this is valid.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Continuous is used to create Teleport Gates with the Teleport Power.

 

Sure - the movement itself is instaneous. But keeping the Teleport "open" or "on" as a Continuous Power means it can be used over and over. And as I said, as part of the "Gate" Limitation it means it's a two way door...

 

I would look up Teleport and Gate in 5ER.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Correct, and this is what I thought originally:

 

Q: Could a character make Teleportation Continuous so that he can travel long distances without “reappearing”?

 

A: No.

 

Gate was never mentioned, that's a separate thing. I was talking about a pure TP.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Correct, and this is what I thought originally:

 

 

 

Gate was never mentioned, that's a separate thing. I was talking about a pure TP.

I could still think of a number of reasons to use Contiuous on Teleport.

 

such as a Teleport Field that's always on.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

here you go:

 

Go Away!: Teleportation 10", x2 Increased Mass, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Trigger: Stepping into the Field; +3/4), Continuous (+1), Usable As Attack (+1) (106 Active Points); Limited Power Always Teleports 10" strait backwards away from the Field (-1)

 

It can be turned off if the Owner so wishes, otherwise it Teleports anyone (willing or otherwise) away from the Entrance it is placed on. Pesky door-to-door salemen no more!

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

What you're missing is my way of thinking. In my head' date=' the point of TP is that - unlike other movement powers - it IS instant. FOOM, there you are. Effectively I'm saying just because you CAN place Continuous (+1) on the power, doesn't mean it's appropriate. If I were to model a TP as taking Extra Time... well, that's how I'd model it. Extra Time. If you want something to occur between Here and There that's appropriately dramatic, you can do that, too.[/quote']

And just because you can make a Constant Power an Instant Power, doesn't mean it is appropriate to do so... See! I can say that too, since it is a truism and has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

 

But on a side note I need to clarifiy something seem to be implying.

Extra Time simply delays when a power is activated, not extend its duration time. Which is what you are suggesting with your example above which would be incorrect. Putting Extra Time on Teleportation simply delays when the person actually teleports, not extend the time it take for teleportation process to occur.

 

But the doing is entirely on you as the mechanic. I don't see a need to make TP Constant' date=' because to me, that it ISN'T constant is what differentiates it from other forms of Movement (Fly, Run, Swim, Tunnel). All four of those are Constant - they happen every turn, they cost END, no problem. If a TP were 'Constant' you'd always be in Flux, you'd never land.[/quote']

Ah. I see now where the disconnect is. Where are reading that a Constant Teleportation implies that you would always be in Flux or never land?

 

Sounds like you are imposing a narrow range of SFX for Teleporation, which actually may make sense for the Superhero Genre, but the rules are now claiming to be a toolkit for various Genres, so the range of SFX must be broadened for those other Teleportation SFX.

 

Anyway, Steve Long clarified in the FAQ that the Continous Advantage does not grant Teleporatation the ability to "vanish" for longer distances.

 

In other words, you would still re-appear at the end of every Full/Half Move as you Teleport around continuously. It is this ruling that suggests to me that the Teleportation should just be classified as a Constant Power instead of Instant.

 

Let's compare the mechanics:

 

10" Running (Does Not Cross Intervening Space +1): Constant Power

Character instantly runs 10" in a Full Move and takes a Full Phase to do so.

 

10" Teleportation: Instant Power

Character instantly teleports 10" in a Full Move and takes a Full Phase to do so.

 

Okay, how are these two different as far as Constant/Instant classification and actual Duration?

 

Please explain. If I am missing somethng mechanically here, I want to know about it.

 

If that SFX is what you want' date=' then we're talking Desolid with gross amounts of running (only while desolid) which could just as easily be made a TP that's crossing intervening space. I see what you're saying, that RAW says Continuous turns an Instant to a Constant, I just don't see how that mechanic creates the effect you want.[/quote']

Really, Desolid.... you really mean Desolid... I can't believe you just tried to use Desolid!! (8^D)

 

Well, let's take a look at Desolid... what if I want to shoot at someone while I'm "Teleporting" as you define it. Oh wait, now I have to buy ARW on all my attacks, just to Teleport.

 

Wait... no... I'm not going down the Desolidfication rant again...

 

So, you don't think that there would be appropriate SFX that might require Teleportation being continous. How about a Flash type character who moves around so fast to point to point that no one can see him in between his start and stop point?

 

Sure, I could take Running (Does Not Cross Intervening Space) and link it to Invisiblity or something like that, but there is a mechanic tailor made for this kind of movement, Teleportation. (8^D) And don't even suggest Desolid!

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I'm content to agree to disagree. Here's my understanding:

 

You want a Continous TP. The rules say you can, the FAQ says you CAN'T, which means the rules say you CAN'T. You're talking about a TP, not a Gate or a Portal (which would be continuous). Okay.

 

You want that TP to represent someone who pops in and out, "Blinks" if you will as a Continuous Effect. In that instance (and the Blink spell does exist in d20) you either have to have an adder/advantage on TP that makes you harder to hit while TPing, or...

 

But TP plus Desolid (only to not get hit while Teleporting). Then you make the Desolid Continuous so long as you've Teleported in that turn. That's what Desolid does. You could also give yourself 50% Damage Reduction, does not work vs. Affects Desolid attacks. Lots of ways to do it.

 

Desolid.

 

There, I said it again.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I'm content to agree to disagree. Here's my understanding:

 

You want a Continous TP. The rules say you can, the FAQ says you CAN'T, which means the rules say you CAN'T. You're talking about a TP, not a Gate or a Portal (which would be continuous). Okay.

 

You want that TP to represent someone who pops in and out, "Blinks" if you will as a Continuous Effect. In that instance (and the Blink spell does exist in d20) you either have to have an adder/advantage on TP that makes you harder to hit while TPing, or...

 

But TP plus Desolid (only to not get hit while Teleporting). Then you make the Desolid Continuous so long as you've Teleported in that turn. That's what Desolid does. You could also give yourself 50% Damage Reduction, does not work vs. Affects Desolid attacks. Lots of ways to do it.

 

Desolid.

 

There, I said it again.

But then your mechanic fails to meet the SFX as defined.

I said "Invisible" not "Immune To Damage", so the SFX is that the character can be hurt while moving around, it is just impossible to perceive them during their move. Therefore, Area Effect attacks (any type) would affect the character and possibly cover fire as well. So your Desolidification abomination fails miserably once again.

 

If you wish to try to keep using Desolidfication, you can, but I'll just keep shooting it down.

 

Remember, Teleportation doesn't automatically make the character "Immune" to damage. A Character Teleporting through an Area Effect attack will take damage per the rules. It takes the GM to override this ruling.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I'm content to agree to disagree. Here's my understanding:

 

You want a Continous TP. The rules say you can, the FAQ says you CAN'T, which means the rules say you CAN'T. You're talking about a TP, not a Gate or a Portal (which would be continuous). Okay.

Actually, you are not reading the FAQs carefully.

Steve Long tends to be too specific when he answers questions.

Sometimes you have to ask him several different ways in order to get the full answer.

 

The FAQs do not say that "Can't take Continous on Teleportation" as a catch all under all circumtances. He was answering a specific question.

 

Question: Can a character take Continous on Teleportation so they do not re-appear until they stop?

Answer: No

 

This is not the same as:

 

Question: Can a character take Continous on Teleportation.

Answer: No

 

I've had to ask Steve Long several different questions sometimes to get him to fully answer my initial question. I have a feeling that this is another one of those cases.

 

Who knows, he may say "No" to all circumstances, but I doubt it.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Well, looks like Steve finally gave a full answer. And it is pretty much what I expected.

 

Continous grants you no additional benefit that Instant doesn't already give you.

 

So why not just classify Teleportation as Constant to match the rest of the Movement Powers?

It works just like them.

 

It also means there is no official way to have a character do Multiple Teleportations without reappearing. You just have to buy up the inches of Teleportation and do Half/Quarter moves to simulate this ability. Weird, huh?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

But then your mechanic fails to meet the SFX as defined.

I said "Invisible" not "Immune To Damage", so the SFX is that the character can be hurt while moving around, it is just impossible to perceive them during their move. Therefore, Area Effect attacks (any type) would affect the character and possibly cover fire as well. So your Desolidification abomination fails miserably once again.

 

If you wish to try to keep using Desolidfication, you can, but I'll just keep shooting it down.

 

Remember, Teleportation doesn't automatically make the character "Immune" to damage. A Character Teleporting through an Area Effect attack will take damage per the rules. It takes the GM to override this ruling.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I believe you mean "teleporting into" not "teleporting through."

 

If you're standing at the edge of Peter the Pyromancer's Circle of Flame, and teleport to a hex directly across it, you don't take damage.

 

Do you?

 

And here's another irony - I ressurected this thread, and asked the question of Mr. Long that I did, as part of my continuing quest to find a way to abolish Desolidification.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Special Effects Palindromedary

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I believe you mean "teleporting into" not "teleporting through."

 

If you're standing at the edge of Peter the Pyromancer's Circle of Flame, and teleport to a hex directly across it, you don't take damage.

 

Do you?

 

And here's another irony - I ressurected this thread, and asked the question of Mr. Long that I did, as part of my continuing quest to find a way to abolish Desolidification.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Variable Special Effects Palindromedary

For Area Effect Attacks, then yes, you take damage by passing through the area per the Area Effect rules. You only take damage once, but you do take damage.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Lucius]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

For Area Effect Attacks, then yes, you take damage by passing through the area per the Area Effect rules. You only take damage once, but you do take damage.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

To which I say two things:

 

1. Where is this from? I mean, what's your source? 5 ER or a FAQ or what?

 

2. Whatever the source is - it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to put Growth and Shrinking on the palindromedary simultaneously

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

To which I say two things:

 

1. Where is this from? I mean, what's your source? 5 ER or a FAQ or what?

 

2. Whatever the source is - it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying to put Growth and Shrinking on the palindromedary simultaneously

1) It may be in the combat section, if not, I'm sure you can find it in the FAQs. I have 5th Edtition. If Revised has changed this, I haven't heard about it. (8^D)

2) I never claimed it made any sense. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

For Area Effect Attacks, then yes, you take damage by passing through the area per the Area Effect rules. You only take damage once, but you do take damage.

 

- Christopher Mullins

What?

 

No you don't.

 

If you Teleport from one end of an AoE to the other unless you have the "Passes through intervening space" Limitation you take no damge.

 

None. Nada. Zero. Zip. Nothing.

[schir1964]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

What?

 

No you don't.

 

If you Teleport from one end of an AoE to the other unless you have the "Passes through intervening space" Limitation you take no damge.

 

None. Nada. Zero. Zip. Nothing.

This may be the one exception, and it would make sense. Do you know if this has been confirmed via FAQs or in 5th Edition Revised.

 

Everything about Area Effect attacks implies that any character passing through the area automatically takes Damage.

 

Again, you could be right, but I don't have time to do the research to verify this right now. If you know the page or the reference, please post it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

This may be the one exception, and it would make sense. Do you know if this has been confirmed via FAQs or in 5th Edition Revised.

 

Everything about Area Effect attacks implies that any character passing through the area automatically takes Damage.

 

Again, you could be right, but I don't have time to do the research to verify this right now. If you know the page or the reference, please post it.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Teleport bypasses an area. You have never taken damage by Teleporting "through" an AoE anything. You don't actually "pass through" an area with Teleport.

 

Unless you have the "passes through intervening space" Limitation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

Someone is definately being unclear. I have a reputation - I like to think - for being pretty level headed, but this is starting to get ridiculous.

 

Let's start over. Can you plainly, and clearly, explain what you want this ability to do, Chris? If you want a TP that gets you through AOE zones, you can do that, because you are dissapearing from one hex, and reappearing in another. If you take TP with "pass through intervening space" ala Batman, to represent his ability to 'vanish' - then you would take damage, because you aren't "really teleporting." Teleport becomes the mechanic to create a special effect.

 

Desolid is an absolute in a world that eschews them. You're absolutely not solid, and hence take no damage. If you want to be invisible then you slap invisible on. And I posted to Steve, and Lucius posted to Steve, and according to Steve - and my own common sense - if you put Continuous on a Teleport nothing happens.

 

Given that, what special effect are you trying to produce?

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

I ressurected this thread' date=' and asked the question of Mr. Long[/quote']

 

Okay, here we go. This looks like the right thread.

 

I originally, upon reading the question that Mr. Long responded to, sent Lucius a PM saying:

 

Pick a spot that is, say, 3 times her normal teleport distance, and teleport there, but she doesn't arrive for 3 phases.

Wouldn't it be possible to do this by Linking it to an Extradimensional Movement: Time?

 

The second could then be done through a Limitation on the Time movement "Cannot be more or less than 1 phase per (full teleport distance)."

 

I don't think it would be possible to teleport such a high distance for the lack of aging from moving through time in an unusual way would matter in the campaign. Or maybe the aging could just be called a side effect; "the extra push drains her energy", or something.

 

I then asked Lucius if I had the right idea of what he meant, and he articulated it again, thusly:

 

What I'm interested in is a teleport that does not have to "materialize" each phase. So that he can only move up to his full move in each phase' date=' but can teleport to, say, 3 times that distance by taking 3 phases, without having to "blink" in and out - just as a character with flight does not have to land at the end of each turn.[/quote']

 

This was my response:

 

There's an essential difference that I see between Flight and Teleport: with flying' date=' you pass over the area beneath you, and can see it. If you teleport to the other side of a truck, you don't "pass through the intervening space", so you don't get to see what's inside the truck. That said, it doesn't make sense to "not materialize" at each destination point, because you're not going to be doing anything about it based on what happens in the outside world; you have to choose in advance how many times you will continue to hop, because you can't react to the changes in your (normal dimension) environment. If you don't have too much Endurance and the Teleport isn't bought down to zero END, you shouldn't be able to Teleport too many times anyway without running out of energy, and you should be able to just buy several range extensions of your Teleport with the Limitation "causes proportionate move forward in Time as well".[/quote']

 

And then Lucius suggested that the idea be put in public so people could chew it over. That's where we are.

[Robyn]

Re: Need Clarification: Extra-Dimensional Movement

 

For "passes through intervening space" with Teleport; it would be interesting to have a character with "Special Effect: 'afterimage' between origin and destination points". Everyone would think he was a Speedster and keep on trying to stop him by putting walls and stuff in the way