Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

[zippercomics]

Hi all!

 

More questions!

 

I have a race called the Ogren. Just a cop of Ogres, really. They're a nomadic, shamanistic people, who've only recently started to amalgamate themselves into "civilization", due to a push from surprisingly young leadership.

 

That's irrelevent, though. What matters is they're not the brightest (they're the "Ogre" package from Fantasy Hero), but are mildly magically inclined. Specifically, since they're shamanistic, they're able to cast spells from the Elementalism and Druidry schools.

 

My question is, "is it necessary for me to restrict what schools they CAN'T cast from"? Do I need to build a Disadvantage to reflect the fact that the uncreative and mundane members of the Ogren Spellcasting community simply don't know how to cast diviniations, or the like? Or is it enough for me to just say "Druidry and Elementalism only".

 

I know, not an important question, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

All the above. Really depends on how you represent access to Magic in your setting.

 

If everyone can do it out of the box, then its worth a mild Physical Limitation to not be able to.

 

If it requires special talents or traits to work various sorts of magic then just dont buy such for Ogryn.

 

If it requires specialized Skills base the Skills on INT -- so Ogres will suck at it even if they do learn it due to their dimness.

 

If it requires specialized training just say that no respectable arcanist would take a retarded Ogre as an apprentice -- and thus there arent any.

 

If its a largely arbitrary system of who can and can't, then one more arbitrary ground rule wont hurt.

 

and so on.

 

Alternately, you could not use existing Magic for their Magic at all and instead provide a unique Magic System for them. Only an Ogryn can use it -- just say it relies on some trait intrinsic to them -- but on the other hand they can't use any other kind of Magic as a counterpunch. Something like the Totemic Shaman I provide might do the trick, or even Aeldenaren, or just make up something of your own that seems appropriate.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/TotemicShamanism.shtml

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/aeldenaren.shtml

[Lucius]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Hi all!

 

More questions!

 

I have a race called the Ogren. Just a cop of Ogres, really. They're a nomadic, shamanistic people, who've only recently started to amalgamate themselves into "civilization", due to a push from surprisingly young leadership.

 

That's irrelevent, though. What matters is they're not the brightest (they're the "Ogre" package from Fantasy Hero), but are mildly magically inclined. Specifically, since they're shamanistic, they're able to cast spells from the Elementalism and Druidry schools.

 

My question is, "is it necessary for me to restrict what schools they CAN'T cast from"? Do I need to build a Disadvantage to reflect the fact that the uncreative and mundane members of the Ogren Spellcasting community simply don't know how to cast diviniations, or the like? Or is it enough for me to just say "Druidry and Elementalism only".

 

I know, not an important question, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks.

 

 

Druids and Shamans can't do divination? Since When??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And the verdict is - innocent! Feed them to the palindromedary!

[SteelDoom]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

since their gods are not good at divinations either

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Lucius has got a point there, although interpreting "Shamanism" in mechanics terms starts a religious debate with me. Simply put, there are a lot of ways to do it, and while I cringe at the idea of losing a key ability (Divination manifesting as speaking with Spirits who have answers, and works for either of the two classes) it is zippercomics world, though, so more power to him. While I agree with the Palindromedary, I yield that ZC's build is the goal here.

 

I certainly don't have the Shaman Package memorized, but muddling my way through the first of three magic systems (or more) I need to build right now, I can say with a straight face, don't hold yourself to any one standard. Take what you need, chuck the rest. As far as your question:

 

Originally Posted by zippercomics

My question is, "is it necessary for me to restrict what schools they CAN'T cast from"? Do I need to build a Disadvantage to reflect the fact that the uncreative and mundane members of the Ogren Spellcasting community simply don't know how to cast diviniations, or the like? Or is it enough for me to just say "Druidry and Elementalism only".

 

This is a you call; KS (as usual) has a point here, and that's is as much a matter of flavor as mechanics. If you want to give them the points back in the racial package, then by all means, restrict thier usage of other magic types. Do you need to? This is HERO. You don't need to do much of anything, it's all options, baby. Killer Shrike had posted something to me yesterday and said, simply, write down what you want to do, and reason backwards from that.

 

If you decide "No, there's no way they can do this; Shamanism is an extension of their ancestral heritage, and as such it is the Spirit who chooses the user; the Ogres themselves have no other magical ability." You can do that. If, as KS said it's a matter of training, then it would be a psychological or physical limitation; could also be build in as part of a reputation (too stupid). A reputation can be overcome in game, and the player can then buy it off. Or, use it to their advantage. "What does that Ogren think he's doing? Everyone knows they're too... stupid... to... GET DOWN!"

 

You've got options. Hope those are at least helpful.

 

Good morning!

[zippercomics]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Lucius has got a point there' date=' although interpreting "Shamanism" in mechanics terms starts a religious debate with me. Simply put, there are a lot of ways to do it, and while I cringe at the idea of losing a key ability (Divination manifesting as speaking with Spirits who have answers, and works for either of the two classes) it is [b']zippercomics[/b] world, though, so more power to him. While I agree with the Palindromedary, I yield that ZC's build is the goal here.

 

I certainly don't have the Shaman Package memorized, but muddling my way through the first of three magic systems (or more) I need to build right now, I can say with a straight face, don't hold yourself to any one standard. Take what you need, chuck the rest. As far as your question:

 

 

 

This is a you call; KS (as usual) has a point here, and that's is as much a matter of flavor as mechanics. If you want to give them the points back in the racial package, then by all means, restrict thier usage of other magic types. Do you need to? This is HERO. You don't need to do much of anything, it's all options, baby. Killer Shrike had posted something to me yesterday and said, simply, write down what you want to do, and reason backwards from that.

 

If you decide "No, there's no way they can do this; Shamanism is an extension of their ancestral heritage, and as such it is the Spirit who chooses the user; the Ogres themselves have no other magical ability." You can do that. If, as KS said it's a matter of training, then it would be a psychological or physical limitation; could also be build in as part of a reputation (too stupid). A reputation can be overcome in game, and the player can then buy it off. Or, use it to their advantage. "What does that Ogren think he's doing? Everyone knows they're too... stupid... to... GET DOWN!"

 

You've got options. Hope those are at least helpful.

 

Good morning!

 

 

They are, absolutely! I'm by no means "new" to Hero, but ironically, all of my play has been limited to online forums until recently. It's amazing how quickly the manner in which I approached the rules systems started to evolve and mutate when the difference between Play by Email and Face to Face became clear. With that in mind, I presented this question in the hopes of getting options, which I most certainly did.

 

In the case of Divination, yes, I agree that a Shaman should be able to do such things. I just presented Druidry and Elementalism as examples, albeit I should've taken the time to screen out other schools of magic. I think I'll have to be a little more oblique in the future, and use one of those "pending GM approval" things.

 

As for magic in my world, anyone can use it, if trained. There's no "magic in your blood", but from a rules standpoint, I'm thinking of requiring a small talent (5 pts) to represent the magically astute. From there, magic is cast via skills per school of magic, and the spells themselves are bought at 1/3 their Real Cost. Cookie cutter magic system, as far as I can tell.

 

I like what Killer Shrike proposed, in giving Ogren Shamanism a build of it's own. Basically saying that their innate connection to the spiritual and natural worlds are born from experiences, from hunches and instincts that other, more "civilized" and "intelligent" races simply can't connect to. Might be a bad example, but the whole "scattering birds never hit each other, but we don't know why" thing is an explaination. The Ogren are definately "dumb", but they also have a more purile, honest connection with nature.

 

From a rules standpoint, I'm thinking I do this:

 

a) Make the Ogren buy a talent, just like other magic users. However, I make it cheaper, probably 3 pts, to represent that it's not as beneficial as an "open magic system" is. this gives them access to buying the Ogren Shamanism spells.

 

Build the spells as normal, with their own skill roll.

 

Any issues with that? Thoughts, if necessary?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

It really depends on how good Ogryn Magic is relative to other sorts of Magic and how the point costs of your Magic System(s) graph out. But, from the information available, it sounds workable enough. Simple is often best.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

What he said.

[Beetle]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

My question is' date=' "is it necessary for me to restrict what schools they CAN'T cast from"? Do I need to build a Disadvantage to reflect the fact that the uncreative and mundane members of the Ogren Spellcasting community simply don't know how to cast diviniations, or the like? [/quote']Being lazy, my instant response is "only if they're a playable race." If the only Ogrens in the game are NPCs, then simply having a vague condition of "can't do X types of magic" is enough (though obvioulsy the more you have it clear in your mind the smoother, more consistent and more "real" it will be during play). But if there will be PC Ogrens, then you'll need to go into painful detail on what they can and can't do and why.

[zippercomics]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

It really depends on how good Ogryn Magic is relative to other sorts of Magic and how the point costs of your Magic System(s) graph out. But' date=' from the information available, it sounds workable enough. Simple is often best.[/quote']

 

 

Yeah, perhaps something I should've pointed out is that I'm a HUGE HUGE HUGE fan of "simple" over any other avenue. My power builds tend to reflect that, and it's something I'm gunning for in this world as well. Hero system, for all it's beauty, can really scare even us mildly-seasoned vets off with some of the builds I've seen.

 

In this instance, keeping it simple seems like the right avenue for me, and that's what I'm hoping to do.

 

Relatively speaking? I don't see Ogren Shamanism being any better than standard magic, for sure. In fact, I've always seen it as a bit of a "mild tricks" type of magic. I can't think of good examples, except to say that Ogren Magic isn't an obtrusive, "here it is" type of magic. More of a "to survive in the wild, you must blend in" kinda thing. If that makes sense.

 

I have to give them more thought. Ironic that I pasted them into the Humanoids part of my world rather haphazzardly last night, and here I am giving them the most thought. Poor Dwarves ...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Considering how much debate I've stirred up just trying to represent Wizards, if the concept of Shamanism if the route you want to take, you could do it (simply) as any of the RAW frameworks without breaking a sweat. An EC would work in that your "element" is Quintessence, or Spirit Stuff itself, thus communing with Spirits, summoning them to aid you, etc., all work out nicely.

 

The thing about Shamanism is that every Shaman is different because their guiding spirit is different and manifests based on the path the Shaman is going to take; if he's Wolf, that's a great example of a hunter, protector & family man. Bear, dangerous when stirred to action. Likes fish. And so on. There are no hard and fast answers on the best way to do it, which is why, upon reflection, I thought I'd toss out a different option. My thoughts on the morning.

 

Good morning!

[i3ullseye]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Just my take here.

 

Normally, when a GM and his players work on characters, explaining that a certain race is unable to have certain thins shoudl be enough. They shouldn't really get 'bonus' points (the disad) for not having somethings, since they will still be based on the same points as your other players. If they want to be a caster, just explain that certain races are not available for that in the campaign.

 

I don't think points should be an issue at all here.

 

If it costs 3 for this Pgre race to get magic, they will just ask why they can't pay the 5 and take the full spectrum then if they are inclined. Your only answer at that point is that Ogres can't buy the 5 point rank... so we are back where we started with just saying no up front and not basing any points on it.

 

Alternative?

 

Add a disadvantage to the Ogre package itself that makes them incapable of magic. Make it also spill over into the use of some magical items (think Dwarves form D&D) and it adds flavor to the race as a whole. This now becomes intrinsic to the race itself.

 

Now you add a talent for Spiritually Attuned which allows them to choose form a select group of shamanistic type spell schools. Now there is no confusion. The race itself is clearly non-magically capable, and only taking a specific talent can any one member of this race learn those magics.

 

But there needs to be other factors involved I think if they are truly non-magical. A race that can;t learnt o be a Wizard really shoudln't be worth any disad points since that is a campaign call.

[Greg]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Is the Ogre shaman from Everquest or something? I had a player in my last Fantasy game want to play an ogre shaman. If so have you tried to just model your character from the source?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Greg: That is the Best. Icon. Ever. I don't know that I would've caught it without the tag, but dag. That's fantastic.

 

i3ullseye makes some good points here as well, zippercomics, I'm about to delve into the dark, demonic world of designing package deals and getting some things set up for my campaign. I'll be met with some resistance, but with Chris Goodwin & Steve's help at the end I think I can make a VPP do what I want for my purposes.

 

However, what Gregis saying is good advice; you can check the EQ boards for reference on how their powers are costed out, and replicate many of them in HERO (which you patently can't do well in d20).

[zippercomics]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Is the Ogre shaman from Everquest or something? I had a player in my last Fantasy game want to play an ogre shaman. If so have you tried to just model your character from the source?

 

 

No. I've never played Everquest (although the term "Ogren" sounds damn familiar to me, and I'm fearful I subconsciouslly picked it up from somewhere).

 

That's something I'm trying to do my best to avoid, which is leeching things from other sources. I'm fearful that, because I'm a World of Warcraft player, some of that will leak into this. Case and point, I was worried that Ogren Shamanism made them sound too much like Tauren. I think that, since the idea to apply Shamanism to the Ogren was quite literally random (I had intended to apply it to a "breed" of humans, but some photos of Easter Island sent me on the Ogren track), I can safely say I didn't borrow all of the idea from outside sources.

 

Am I crazy? Is the term "Ogren" already out there? Guess it's time for a google search ... *scared of what he'll find*

[zippercomics]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Greg: That is the Best. Icon. Ever. I don't know that I would've caught it without the tag, but dag. That's fantastic.

 

i3ullseye makes some good points here as well, zippercomics, I'm about to delve into the dark, demonic world of designing package deals and getting some things set up for my campaign. I'll be met with some resistance, but with Chris Goodwin & Steve's help at the end I think I can make a VPP do what I want for my purposes.

 

However, what Gregis saying is good advice; you can check the EQ boards for reference on how their powers are costed out, and replicate many of them in HERO (which you patently can't do well in d20).

 

 

Agreed. But I'm not TOO worried about how to "rules" it out; I'm not bad with Hero. I have about a 12- with it, which is pretty average for someone of my intelligence. It's more the background and "coloring" feedback I need from you folks.

 

For now. Guaranteed, I'll have a "how to build a ..." thread on here soon...

[mayapuppies]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Try Ogryn.

 

A mutant human strain from the Imperial Guard in the Warhammer 40K universe.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

That would be why KS kept spelling it differently from ZC. I are enlightened.

[zippercomics]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

That would be why KS kept spelling it differently from ZC. I are enlightened.

 

 

Damn. That's a buzz-kill.

 

Oh well.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Yeah, it is a bit of a downer. But hey; just because they did it their way doesn't mean you can't do it your way; my suggestion? Don't look at their material, ever. Feel free to break from tradition. Defenestrate tradition. That's how I roll. You should my "I refuse to submit to standard cliches" themes for my primary campaign.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

As part of your KISS principle, why not simply state that Magic Skill is a talent rather than a skill, and thus is in theory limited the same way all talents are.. no "game" limitations as much as "Only for appropriate characters, subject to GM approval".

 

An easy way to distinguish your Ogyryn Shamanisim (or any shamanisim, for that matter) from more traditional Fantasy Magery is easy... make it a different magic skill, with Shamanisim Pre Based and Magic Int or Ego based. Thus you can have a very effective shaman who is still basically a drooling idiot... fits very well with the source, in that many primitive cultures consider the mad, foolish, insane or otherwise "touched in the head" types to be more connected to the spirits, a model that'd be hard to do if you based Shamanism on Int.

 

Besides... Shamanism is better represented as more of a Interaction Skill than a Lore skill anyway. Basically you're asking, begging, telling, pleading, requesting, bullying or otherwise trying to convince the spirits to do your bidding.

 

"I'll give you a sheep's blood if you put a hex on my neighbor... please?"

[mayapuppies]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Here's how I have my initial write-up of one of the two Shaman style magics (the other uses KS's Totemic shaman):

 

The shamans negotiate with these spirits and request favors from them. As spirit folk tend to be mischievous and rather distracted, the Shamans have become consummate negotiators. Traditionally the Shaman live as one with their surroundings, never taking more than they need from their environs and avoiding the arbitrary destruction of their wilderness homes. This ecologically friendly mindset is imperative to their religious beliefs as well as establishing friendly terms in which to interact with the spirits.

 

The process that a shaman goes through to enact the favor of the spirits is as follows;

 

First the shaman must call forth the appropriate spirit (Incantations), which invariably requires the shaman to have an appropriate charm that is representative of the spirit (Focus) and then request the favor of the spirit. At this time the shaman and spirit enter into a negotiation (Requires Skill Roll [PRE Based] and Extra Time), if the shaman proves a match for the spirit then the favor is enacted and the shaman must expend some of his own life force to remove the taint that the spirit has gained through its interaction with our plane of existence (Costs Endurance).

 

As some favors are more taxing for the spirits than others it is often common for the shaman to remain in negotiation with the spirit (Concentration) throughout the duration of the favor. Some spirits are wilier than others and the negotiations may take longer than “normal†(increase Extra Time). Other spirits may wish the shaman to perform for them and request strange dances (Gestures) to be performed. It is not uncommon for the capricious spirits to decide they wish to play a trick or some such silliness on the shaman in addition to the original favor (Side Effect). Some favors may have more detrimental effects on the spirit folk that increase the amount of taint they suffer while they are in our plane of existence and the shaman is duty bound to heal this damage (Increased Endurance Cost).

 

Despite these ramifications and conditions, the shamans can become quite powerful and thus are able to request favors of the spirits that can be quite devastating. The key thing to remember is that the shaman will never ask the spirits to perform actions that are detrimental to the surrounding lands, animals or plants. A shaman will never cause the rot or decay of plants, animals or even people, as this is anathema to the purposes and beliefs of the spirits.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

That's a great flavor text description, actually, mayapuppies, nicely done.

 

Originally Posted by The Fool

fits very well with the source, in that many primitive cultures consider the mad, foolish, insane or otherwise "touched in the head" types to be more connected to the spirits, a model that'd be hard to do if you based Shamanism on Int.

 

It wasn't my fault, you know. They picked me. *sigh* Well, as I'm fond of saying, you really only get two choices. You either answer the call, and people perceive you as mad, or you ignore the call, and become mad. Either way, you're mad. Very Alice in Wonderland, but I have yet to see it not apply. We're not mad. We're just far, far too sane. No equilibrium. We all generally lean too much towards knowing too many things, and having the spatial awareness to grasp them.

 

Most people find that much distilled truth disconcerting. And for some reason, I'm impossibly comfortable with it.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Gracias.

 

That is how I intend to write-up all of the magic systems in my game world. It makes it easier for me to write-out the process and then assign mechanics to it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Shamans, or "restrictions on spell schools"

 

Aye, I do something very similar. I build all of my NPCs as descriptive, with an eye towards the mechanics. Then why I describe someone as competent (INT 13) is sort of an automatic response. Strong, weak, in good shape, fit, unfit, grossly obese but still solidly build (CON 14, STR 16) despite being too damn fat to move anywhere (DEX 7). All of it goes into ye olde blender. It's a strong method, I have yet to see it fail, or to have me build an ub3r character.