Target dependent effect

[Sean Waters]

I was thinking....

 

How would you feel about this: an attack - say a radiation blast - that has different effects depending on the target - not just different sfx or even advantages, but completely different powers. For example:

 

Against humans, the radiation blast acts as a killing attack, but against inorganics it acts as a normal attack (i.e. is probably rather less effective).

 

So we could build it with:

 

4d6 RKA (only v 'organics' -1/2) 60 points active, 40 real

AND

12d6 EB (only v 'inorganics' -1/2), (linked EB -1/2) 60 active, 30 real

Total: 70 points

 

OR you could build it as a MP:

 

60 point pool

Slot 1: RKA (4 points with lims)

Slot 2: EB (4 points with lims, except, obviously, the 'linked')

 

Total 68 points.

 

Now the problem with the second option is that you have to choose which slot you use, and if you pick the wrong one then, well, it doesn't work. Mind you the idea, the sfx if you will, is that it is just one blast, it just has different effects depending on what it hits - it is not IN FACT two different slots.

 

OK Sean, what's your point, use the first option: the cost is about the same.

 

Well, yes, but that is only because I have only defined two sorts of targets - there might be rather more: if instead of 'inorganics (-1/2)' we have 'machines and computers with electronics' that works as a BODY drain and 'other inorganic matter' that the EB works against, maybe each gets a -1?

 

So:

 

RKA: 40 points

EB: 24 points (-1 as above and linked)

Drain 24 points (-1 and linked)

 

Total: 88 points....the cost is increasing....

 

Now if the MP could be used as a single blast - you can't decide which slot to use - that is decided by the target, in effect - what would that be worth? Well first off you could not have the limitations on slots in the same way, as it is always going to effect something - unless even if you do count ALL slots there are things it can't effect (in which case you apply an overall limitation), so the cost of those three slots in a MP would be 60+(3x6)=78 points.

 

To get to a point....I like the idea of using a single MP where the slot used is determined by something other than the user (at least directly). It also means that the overall construction is far more straightforward without having to apply all those fiddly little limtiations and whatnot.

 

1. Am I mad (I mean, specifically in relation to this point)?

2. Should this be an advantage, a limitation, neither or, 'it depends' (and if so, why?)

3. Anything else you can think of to say.....including potential problems (I've thought of a fefw, but I'll not poison the chalice just yet), or better ways to do it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I'd suggest using a Multipower of ultra slots with various attack powers, then applying the -1 version of No Conscious Control to the whole thing. When it's used, the character with the Radiation Blast simply chooses to fire the Radiation Blast... exactly which slot comes into play as a result is not under his control.

 

(Yes, technically speaking he has to have allocated the points before the attack, but I think that can be safely handwaved here.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

The problem with that being that the whole thing is then cheaper than any single slot would be outside the MP. Now in some instances I can see it being a real limitation: you want to get through the wall you'd rather have the RKA for more BODY but you are limited to the EB. OTOH, sometimes it is a real advantage: the base central AI has gone rogue and it in a duranium armoured globe, giving it enormous defences against normal and killing attacks: but the ranged drain will slice right through that....I think balance is the problem, and that in turn depends on the MP contents and construction....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I can't see it as an advantage... in your example, the character could just choose to use the more effective Drain, instead of the less effective RKA, if the Multipower had been bought without a Limitation. But you're right that -1 might be too much.

 

What if we borrow the -1/2 Limitation No Choice of How/When Powers Change from Variable Power Pool?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I can't see it as an advantage... in your example, the character could just choose to use the more effective Drain, instead of the less effective RKA, if the Multipower had been bought without a Limitation. But you're right that -1 might be too much.

 

What if we borrow the -1/2 Limitation No Choice of How/When Powers Change from Variable Power Pool?

 

 

It might be an advantage if the target LOOKED like a human but was in fact a shape shifted heavily armoured robot - the user would probably make the 'wrong' choice if the target is not what it seems...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

It might be an advantage if the target LOOKED like a human but was in fact a shape shifted heavily armoured robot - the user would probably make the 'wrong' choice if the target is not what it seems...

I think that would usually be sufficiently uncommon that it wouldn't affect the value of the modifier.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

Unless you have a class of target that is totally unaffected by the attack (which would be a separate limitation), I think I would apply a -¼ limitation to the Multipower pool "Active slot is target dependent". Because it is a limitation not to be able to select which slot you use, but if you always have an attack it isn't much of a limitation. This way the -¼ limitation covers the cost of buying the slots (instead of a straight EB or RKA or whatever). Okay the points don't come out quite evenly between the Multipower and a straight attack, but the idea here is to create a reasonable special effect, and this would just about balance it out, IMHO.

 

________________________________________________________

"Rich people scare me. They can already evade taxes." - Grim Reaper

[Dragoran]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

How about going in this direction:

you buy all the powers as linked, each of the powers have a diffrent limitation, I'll explain:

RKA: only affects living

EB: only affects inorganics

Drain: only affects robots

when using the power - you shoot everything at the target at the same time, the player does not choose which power to use.

 

now - if the power hits a living, only the RKA works.

if the power hits a robot - EB and drain works

ect'

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

That could pretty nasty in terms of END Cost though...

[Dragoran]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

well, the "only affects X" limit on each of the powers should neget the "costs no endurance to use"

 

can you invent an advantage "costs endurance only when affects the target"?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

In the instance I quote, there would probably be reasonable balance between different slots targetting automatically but you could build it so that it was clearly advantageous:

 

60 point MP

Slot 1: 12d6 EB

Slot 2: 8d6 AP EB

 

....and the second slot is selected when the target has more than 28 points of energy defence.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

That could pretty nasty in terms of END Cost though...

One thought is to buy all buy one attack to 0END. We're getting up there in Active Points, but it's not a simple idea either.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

Sean

 

I think that Derek had the right idea without realising it.

 

What you are talking about is a severely limited VPP limited in that there are only three powers available and you have no control over when they change.

 

Haven't got my book in front of me or time away from my toddler to work out the costs but this would probably be more book legal/satisfying than anything else.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I'm shocked you haven't suggested doing it all with a transform, matey

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I'm shocked you haven't suggested doing it all with a transform' date=' matey [/quote']

 

I thought about it but that would have the same problems as single powers. If transform doesn't do it then go for VPP....

 

 

But do you see a problem with the VPP?

 

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

you shouldn't need a sperate Detect to trigger a Triggered Power for the same reason everyone argued you shouldn't need sperate powers to use the Mimic of Shapeshift.

 

And I can think of several examples of Triggered powers that the character has nothing to do with the trigger's event or percieving it: like Claymore mines for example.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I hadn't thought of using triggered, ghost-angel: that could work well, providing an advantage cost and a reason why the 'appropriate' slot goes off....hmmm....good one!

 

Doc: the problem with a VPP (to my mind) is it has to be set up: I'm not really sure how this would substantially differ from the MP example, but I might just be being thick (as usual)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

hmm.. my mind has wandered off and doing things without me again.. I don't remember posting this.

 

Triggered would work nicely for this I'd imagine. you're welcome.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

hmm.. my mind has wandered off and doing things without me again.. I don't remember posting this.

 

Triggered would work nicely for this I'd imagine. you're welcome.

 

 

Hmm....duplication, no conscious control? Phys Lim: distinct personalities? Gaaa! Must stop thinking of everything as a Hero building problem....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I hadn't thought of using triggered, ghost-angel: that could work well, providing an advantage cost and a reason why the 'appropriate' slot goes off....hmmm....good one!

 

Doc: the problem with a VPP (to my mind) is it has to be set up: I'm not really sure how this would substantially differ from the MP example, but I might just be being thick (as usual)

 

I was looking at the VPP kind of like a wand of wonder where the user fires it without actually having any control of what comes forth.

 

In this case the user fires the power and the effects depend on the target (thus the no control over power switch). So the target determines the effects like a random roll determines the effects of a wand of wonder.

 

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

Very interesting question! As usual, I think it depends on effect.

 

Example 1:

The GM includes as a plot device a widget that emits hard radiation. The GM rules that the effects of the widget's hard radiation vary depending on target and does not need to worry about how to build the device using HERO rules. Instead the GM uses logic and dramatic sense to decide exactly what happens when the widget is activated.

 

Example 2:

The player wants an RKA. Just an RKA! Hard radiation sounds good to the player. The GM steps in and says, "Maybe hard radiation would have different effects on different targets. Do you want to model that or just have me play it case by case?" The player thinks it over and decides that writing up the power with tons of exceptions and so on and so forth is too much work. The player simply buys the hard radiation RKA and the GM uses logic and dramatic sense to change the effect of the power when that would prove important or interesting. If the GM notes that these changes amount to a Limitation on the power he is free to offer points back to the player.

 

Example 3:

The player wants to build a hard radiation attack power. The player decides that it should have different effects depending on the target. The player decides that for this power that is best modeled by lowered dice of damage vs inorganic targets. This is written up as a Limitation on the power.

 

Example 4:

The player wants to build a hard radiation attack power. The player decides that it should have different effects depending on the target. The player decides that for this power that is best modeled by increased dice vs organic targets. This is written up as an Advantage on the power.

 

Example 5:

The player wants a Wand of Wonder type power that changes effect depending on target and the player has no clue as to what will happen. This is written up as a VPP with Limitations.

 

Example 6:

The player wants an Energy Blast with special effects and Advantages that change depending on target. This can be purchased as a VPP with Limitations as in Example 5 or as an Energy Blast with Variable Special Effects and Variable Advantages and (perhaps) a Limitation to reflect inability to decide ahead of time what sort of special effects or Advantages appear when the power is used.

 

I think the list of examples could go on and on here. That's the beauty of the system, yes?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

I was looking at the VPP kind of like a wand of wonder where the user fires it without actually having any control of what comes forth.

 

In this case the user fires the power and the effects depend on the target (thus the no control over power switch). So the target determines the effects like a random roll determines the effects of a wand of wonder.

 

 

Doc

 

 

 

Eeeee! NO! More work for GM - bad Doc, BAD DOC!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Target dependent effect

 

..............

 

I think the list of examples could go on and on here. That's the beauty of the system, yes?

 

 

Ah that terrible, seductive beauty....

[Lucius]

Just to Confuse the Issue....

 

A power with effects that are target-dependent doesn't need to always be an attack.

 

 

Au Set's Blessing:

Vs. Undead & Abbysal creatures, does 3d6 damage.

Vs. Living things, does 3d6 healing.

 

 

The Oolimarine Altar of Correction:

For Oolimarines lying upon it for 1 hr each day, does 6d6 healing with regneration.

For members of any other religion or ethnic group (or humanoid species) (who would probably have to be tied down to it) Does a cumulative combined physical and mental transformation into an Oolimarine.

For non-humanoids, no effect.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No, says the palindromedary, he didn't really have anything helpful to say.