Paying endurance for adders you're not using

[The Souljourner]

So, I know that if you have teleportation 20" (40 active points) and you only teleport 10" (using 20 active points), you only use 2 END. However, what if you have a bunch of adders like position shift, no relative velocity, and x4 noncombat? That's 20 more active points.. but do you have to pay END for those adders if you're not using noncombat movement, not changing position, and not changing velocity? My gut says no, but I don't have any rules to back me up.

 

This is probably in the book somewhere, but I didn't see it on a quick skim, and figured other people might be wondering the same thing.

 

-Nate

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

I know it's on the book, but I'm at work and not near the book - the answer is yes you have to pay END for all Adders on the power as they are always "active" - however I'm sure many GMs would be lax on things such as the NCx on a movement power. The others not so much.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

I have always handled it proportionately.

 

If you have a max range on Teleport of 40", and it costs you 8 End... if you go only 20" you use 4 End. If you go 10" you use 2 End. I do the same after NCM is calculated also, but for Megascale I sy full END on every use.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

that's a good way to do it, saves on math etc...

[Ternaugh]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Unfortunately, the official answer is that you pay the END for the adders each time the power is used, whether the adders are used or not. However, Steve Long makes a note about half-moves here that implies that it's okay to prorate based upon the amount of movement used.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16992&highlight=adders

 

As always, YMMV,

JoeG

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Interesting point, and, although I couldn't find the bit in the FAQ he referenced, and although pro-rating is the sensible way to do it, I think the answer has to be wrong - in SirViss' question 10" move costs 2 END and x32 NCM costs 2 END: a half move uses half the flight but still uses all of the adder: I do not see how Mr Long's answer squares with this.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

pg.102 states that END is 1 per 10AP, included Advantages and Adders used.

 

Now, since you can conceivable turn "off" an Adder I would interperet that as saying any Adder not used (such as non-combat mulitpiers in a combat move) doesn't add to the END cost.

 

At the GMs discretion I would say he could claim some Adders as always on, such as No Relative Velocity. But I'd take that on a game by game basis.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Found an old question that I had posted:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29740

 

Referencing the second part of the question, Mr Long's answer led to page 246 of 5ER, which says that adders always count for END cost (unless eliminated by GM ruling).

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Found an old question that I had posted:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29740

 

Referencing the second part of the question, Mr Long's answer led to page 246 of 5ER, which says that adders always count for END cost (unless eliminated by GM ruling).

 

JoeG

I thought I saw it somewhere ... pg246 further details what is said in pg102.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Thanks muchly guys. Kinda sad about that, really, but maybe I can convince my GM to let me only pay for adders when I use them.

 

-Nate

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

You could always build your Teleport as a Multipower, and only use the slots with the adders you need.

 

Personally, to reduce bookkeeping, I would figure END use for the whole power, and prorate based on the amount of movement used. So, rather than paying (END cost of 1/2 move) + (END cost of adders), as the rules seem to say, you'd pay 1/2(END cost of full move + adders). Still doesn't allow you to get away as cheaply as turning off adders, but should still be quicker to implement in play.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Or you could always use Naked Adders. Then you only pay for the Adder when you use it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

you can't buy Naked Adders - just Advantages.

 

I would simply divide the END you use by the movement used vs maximum: 20" using only 10" = 1/2 END use of the total calcultated END of the power at maximum. It's fast and simple and doesn't interupt flow.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

5ER p 244-245 disagrees:

 

Normally, you must attach a Power Advantage to a Power, but sometimes you can create interesting abilities with just a "naked" Power Advantage - in other words, an Advantage that's not attached to a Power. (A character could also have a naked Power Adder; the same rules apply)

 

The same rules are on p 157 of FRED.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

huh. missed that. thnx for pointing it out.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

This is one of the things that I as GM will be eliminating by my ruling.

 

If I have a 12d6 EB and only use 8d6 of it, I only pay 4 END instead of 6, but if I have 20" of Teleportation x8 Mass and only teleport myself, I'm supposed to pay the full 6 instead of 4? That doesn't make sense. Teleporting my own mass costs the same END as teleporting my and all my friends? Seems like it would take more effort to carry passengers...

 

And so it does as far as I'm concerned.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Teleporting my own mass costs the same END as teleporting my and all my friends? Seems like it would take more effort to carry passengers...

Well...if you own a bus so you can not only drive yourself around, but give a ride to a number of friends at the same time...that bus consumes a lot of gas even if you're only using it to get yourself from place to place -- much more than a motorcycle, capable of transporting only you, would.

 

 

(And yes, I'm aware the gas mileage of the bus would be worse with a full load than with just a single occupant...but a mass transit vehicle is still going to take more energy to operate than a vehicle capable of transporting just one person, even if the mass transit vehicle has only that single occupant.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

Well...if you own a bus so you can not only drive yourself around' date=' but give a ride to a number of friends at the same time...that bus consumes a lot of gas even if you're only using it to get yourself from place to place -- much more than a motorcycle, capable of transporting [i']only[/i] you, would.

 

 

(And yes, I'm aware the gas mileage of the bus would be worse with a full load than with just a single occupant...but a mass transit vehicle is still going to take more energy to operate than a vehicle capable of transporting just one person, even if the mass transit vehicle has only that single occupant.)

 

I see your point, but your second statement is pretty much what blows it out of the water. Instead of a bus, think of a jumbo sized U-Haul truck. Empty, it takes a lot of gas to get from place to place.... but takes a LOT more gas if it's full. Even with the motorcycle, you can theoretically haul a small trailer or sidecar, and spend more gas doing so. Not all motorcycles can or do, but those that do use more gas when loaded than when unloaded.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

I see your point' date=' but your second statement is pretty much what blows it out of the water.[/quote']

Well, I wouldn't say it "blows it out of the water", but I didn't think it was a perfect analogy, either.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

The 'right' way is to pay END for adders. We have two different scenarios though:

 

10" flight x32 NCM = 20 (power) + 20 (adders) = 40 active points or 4 END:

 

Flying at 5" x 32 SHOULD mean paying the cost for 5" flight (1 END) and x32 NMC (2 END) = 3 END

 

The problem comes when you slow down to combat speed. The rules say 10" combat speed STILL costs 4 END as you have to pay for the adders. 5" would then cost - well, what? - 2 or 3? Either is arguable - you are using half the power, pay half the cost, OR you are using half the flight power but still have to pay for the adders. Personally if the adders were not actually in use I'd say pay in proportion to the max end (i.e., in this example 2 END). If the adders are in use, you pay for them in full, no matter how much of the 'base power' you are using. This 'feels right' but is more complicated than other possible solutions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

+1/4 advantage for adders: 0 END when not in use?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Paying endurance for adders you're not using

 

As simple the list of options are for reduced END are, 1/2 END (+1/4), 0 END (+1/2), Only Costs END to Activate (+1/4), I don't see why a simple 2 slot multipower (or adding an additional slot to any existing multipower) can't solve most issues like this. Elemental Controls are the only exception to this solution and they provide enough of a cost break IMO that purchasing the extra advantage is just part of the balancing act.

 

HM