Quickie CSL question.

[Thia Halmades]

Good morning!

 

In d20, Dwarves have a natural talent for fighting Giants; you could consider them professionals at it. Nowhere in FREd or Combat can I find a reference to a basic concept: OCVs vs. a Specific Opponent. Since it didn't seem to be a core rule, I thought I'd ask y'all what you thought.

 

Quite simply, my reasoning was that since it's a limited function (rather backwards from "swords" or "greatsword," but still limited) that to represent "vs. Giants" I would use the same general rules; a 2 pt. CSL would apply as "+1 OCV vs. Giants." My question is this:

 

Would it make more sense that way, or, would you purchase a separate CSL that only works against Giants (fairly limiting, -3/4). So if you were to purchase two full blown CSLs (8) would you cost it out at 16 Active (2 full CSLs) and 9 Real?

 

Your thoughts?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

Would it make more sense that way' date=' [i']or[/i], would you purchase a separate CSL that only works against Giants (fairly limiting, -3/4). So if you were to purchase two full blown CSLs (8) would you cost it out at 16 Active (2 full CSLs) and 9 Real?

Well, if the Dwarves' bonus applies to both Hand to Hand and Ranged combat, then this is probably the way to go. If it is only applicable with HtH, then I would use 5 point skill levels.

 

Keep in mind that most giants would automagically get a DCV penalty due to their size anyway, but I assume that this is some sort of Everydwarf training that makes them even more focused versus giants. Seems slightly funny that short people learn a way to attack things that they can't hardly reach above the boots on, but I'm weird that way.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I just posted it as an example for reflecting that sort of thing in general; I doubt a PC would take it under normal circumstances, but hey, that's me. So I could cost it out for a basic racial package as 4 pts., +2 OCV, - 0.500, Only Works Against Giants. Cost a whopping 3 points. Thanks for the input, nolgroth. You have a point with the 5 pointer, though, in terms of reflecting extensive training.

 

Agreed: Why are they fighting Giants in the first freaking place? No clue! But I was curious how to represent it from d20 to HERO.

 

Good morning!

[Nolgroth]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

Well the five point level is only because it is the lowest point level you can add Power Modifiers to. At five points it would either be HtH or Ranged combat. To do both, you would need the eight point level.

 

And a fine mornin' to you as well.

 

Time to sleep.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

AHA! So it would be a sort of collective "Giant Fighting Ability" worth 5 pts/level, and could flow from OCV to DCV to DC. That actually makes more sense. And since it's Only While Fighting Giants (-3/4) it would only cost 6 pts. for two levels of it. Nice.

 

Thanks for the advice, that's perfect. And saves me the hassle of building a Giant Fighting MA. Which I may still do, you never know. Mua ha ha.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

Wasn't the whole Dwarf/Giant thing E. Gygax's take on some part of Norse mythology?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

This is one of the inherent advantages of being a blasphemer. I don't give a whit over what EGG thought, and in fact, I'm fairly certain at this point that he and I would disagree on what gaming is and means to us (or our players) individually. d20 (and D&D) are games that happen to work best in the context of some sort of story, even if it were paper thin. That's how I broke d20, by trying to make it something it ain't.

 

I think a phenomenal amount of material in d20 3.5 is grandfathered in; Magic Missile, dwarf giant fighters and Elves who start with weapon proficiencies are all great examples. But I have more respect for Steve Long in the brief time I've corresponded with him, read the books and been on the boards, than I have for EGG and I've been playing D&D in one form or another for 21 years.

 

*shrug*

 

Wow... I clearly harbor some bitterness here, and just now noticed it. Good heavens. Makes you wonder what the guy did, doesn't it? -- DEM

[Outsider]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

You could use the same construct as they use in Deadly Blow, but replace thje +KA with +OCV.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I actually hadn't thought about that, but the pricing doesn't match out; a +1 OCV with a weapon is worth 2; that doesn't cost out correctly, and I wanted a more... finesse over power approach, I suppose is what I'd want to say in that regard. I'm all for making adjustments to powers as necessary, but I figured there was an easier way that existed in the framework, rather than modify a different rule.

 

However! You have an excellent point for how to stack in any additional damage abilities they may have, which is exactly the sort of thing that Talent is for. Thanks for the reminder, outsider!

[Scion Zane]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

For the dwarf traite vs/ giants I would go with the 8pts skill level for all combat, dont for get dwarves also get the dodge bounas vs/giants as well. I would buy two 5pts csl. for a +2 Dcv vs/giants dodge only -3/4Lim.

 

Then thier is the orc/and goblin raciel enemy. Id buy a two points csl to ocv+1 and for the damage bounas Id buy a 5 pts for a 1 points hka for a -1/2 limitation

[hancock.tom]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

In the Fantasy HERO campaign I ran, we built these sorts of racial combat bonuses as 8 point all combat CSLs, with -2 disad (only against hated race)

 

That makes the 8 point CSLs cost only 3 points, which is pretty fair.

 

Thanks for this design goes to Killer Shrike, from whose site I shamelessly steal ideas to use in my FH campaign.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I think when I have more time and a little more grep on the rules, I'm going to go whole-hog and make a Giant Fighting Martial Art. Too Big For You Fu. Then. Maybe. I'll get back to 'serious' design principles.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I handled it like so:

 

3* Racial Enmity: +1 All Combat, vs Orc-kin Only (-2)

3* Racial Enmity: +1 All Combat, vs Giant-kin Only (-2)

 

As detailed in this document:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/dwarfPackages.shtml

 

Why -2? Because when considering all of the things an All Combat applies to normally, the normal expected ratio of Orc / Giant kin, and the normal array of attacks a particular character uses the ability is severely crippled and is probably not as good as +1 OCV with a tight group more often than not, and thus 3 points (actually 2.666~) is about what it should cost IMO.

 

In a setting where Orcs or Giant kin are much more prevalent the ability would be more useful and thus in the Dwarfy Race Package(s) for that setting I would just override the ability with a less limited version.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I think when I have more time and a little more grep on the rules' date=' I'm going to go whole-hog and make a Giant Fighting Martial Art. Too Big For You Fu. Then. Maybe. I'll get back to 'serious' design principles.[/quote']

 

Here is a Dwarven version:

25 Dwarven War Art: (Art used with Axes/Maces/Hammers/Picks; KS: Dwarven War Art (INT), Avoidance: Martial Dodge, Block: Martial Block, Chop: Offensive Strike {2d6+1 location}, Stroke: Defensive Strike {2d6+7 location}, Side Slash: Martial Strike {3d6 location})

10* Dwarven War Art Training: +2 with Dwarven War Art, +1 DC with Dwarven War Art

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Content/RacePackageDeals/dwarfPackages.shtml

 

Of course, vs Giants, hit locations are generally leavened with some degree of common sense due to the sheer physical proportions of Giants. Which reminds me of the absurdity of an old Dwarf character of mine that had a Vorpal Sword and went around lopping off Giant heads w/ it. We made a game within a game of coming up with in game rationales for how he accomplished this. "Interpreted Stupidity" as we called it; a useful skill to have in AD&D 2e.

 

A Giant Version would be easy to do, but be warned -- the high STR of Giants and similar races plus the extra damage of Martial Arts is very very nasty -- which is no surprise since Brick/MAs are so nasty in the HERO System in general. I've made and played such characters, and others in our groups of the past have as well. Perhaps the most notable was another players character called Stonebones, a 500 point Giant who had some high-offense Martial Manuevers among other things. He was also a Psionicist (Psychometabolicist). He was basically a super-brick

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

In the Fantasy HERO campaign I ran, we built these sorts of racial combat bonuses as 8 point all combat CSLs, with -2 disad (only against hated race)

 

That makes the 8 point CSLs cost only 3 points, which is pretty fair.

 

Thanks for this design goes to Killer Shrike, from whose site I shamelessly steal ideas to use in my FH campaign.

Np!

[Lucius]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I used to give superior knights skill levels only vs dragons.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says "No, he doesn't have anything useful to say, he's just suffering insomnia again."

[Old Man]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

I think when I have more time and a little more grep on the rules' date=' I'm going to go whole-hog and make a Giant Fighting Martial Art. Too Big For You Fu. Then. Maybe. I'll get back to 'serious' design principles.[/quote']

 

Let's see, the maneuvers would be... kick... stomp... I think that about covers it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

You forgot:

 

- Grab

- Pound while grabbing

- Use as golf club

- Hurl

- Toss Absurdly Heavy Object at Your Head.

 

AND. MY FAVORITE.

 

"Crunchy on the inside, chewy on the outside they're HU-Mans! HU-Mans! A piece of armor on everyone! Collect them all! Eat enough, and you might collect the "Golden Suit" and win a prize!"

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Quickie CSL question.

 

Just use the Brick MA for Giant Fu. Same basic idea.