By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

30 actions that will be handily used up saving the civilians and putting buildings back on their foundations when Gravitar launches her god awful city smashing attack' date=' something I have noticed as absent in these scenarios.[/quote'] Oh, so the only thing Gravitar ever does is try to smash cities? She couldn't possibly be attacking IHA agents when the heroes arrive?

 

And ask yourself, if it's a team of 350 point characters with a little xp, what's the best way to prevent Gravitar from smashing the city? Is it to attack the symptoms or the source?

 

Seems to me you're trying to make the PCs act stupidly. Given Gravitar's power it would be very difficult for most characters to do anything to stop her smashing things besides just attacking her.

[CBikle]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

30 actions that will be handily used up saving the civilians and putting buildings back on their foundations when Gravitar launches her god awful city smashing attack' date=' something I have noticed as absent in these scenarios.[/quote']

 

1 -As others have pointed out, we don't really know the details of Incredibl's game other than the team had an easier time taking her out after she was flashed.

 

2- From CKC, page 23 under the Powers/Tactics heading, last paragraph:

"Although she is quite intelligent and capable of sustained tactical thinking, she usually prefers a straightforward approach to combat: she strikes her opponents down with seemingly casual exercises of her power, deflecting their return attacks with her defenses until she has defeated them all. She is not usually cruel, or a killer, but can easily become petty, vindictive, and potentially deadly if mocked, humiliated or otherwise annoyed."

 

Going by the above, Incredibil ran Gravitar fairly close to how she's written, as near as I can tell. You might have her throwing buildings at innocents, but that's not consistent with how she's written.

 

Going by the official write-up, it'd seem that Gravitar would directly go after the team, but you could make an argument about PCs having to spend actions dealing with things like Gravitar throwing trains full of people at them, but in general, intentionally endangering innocents doesn't seem part of her M.O.

 

3- I don't think the Ultimates would care all that much if Gravitar endangered civilians.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Oh, so the only thing Gravitar ever does is try to smash cities? She couldn't possibly be attacking IHA agents when the heroes arrive?

 

And ask yourself, if it's a team of 350 point characters with a little xp, what's the best way to prevent Gravitar from smashing the city? Is it to attack the symptoms or the source?

 

Seems to me you're trying to make the PCs act stupidly. Given Gravitar's power it would be very difficult for most characters to do anything to stop her smashing things besides just attacking her.

 

How did you get from 'innocents being endangered' to 'all she ever does?' Do you think she only throws empty cars at PCs? When she shuts off the gravity does she spare the dimpled children? Does no one emulate this in their games, a situation that happens ridiculously often in comics? Just 'cuz they ain't your DNPC doesn't mean you let them go splat.

 

Ya know, shouting "Police, freeze" may seem stupid in some situations but without it they are assassins in blue. So far I have heard the description of a spandex hit squad with Gravitar in their sights. Sounds uncharacteristic of Incredibil, and I think something got lost in his and ChuckG's spat. Was anyone here a player in that scenario? I'd love to hear more about what happened, or even a more nuanced version by Incredibil.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

How did you get from 'innocents being endangered' to 'all she ever does?' Do you think she only throws empty cars at PCs? When she shuts off the gravity does she spare the dimpled children? Does no one emulate this in their games, a situation that happens ridiculously often in comics? Just 'cuz they ain't your DNPC doesn't mean you let them go splat.

 

Ya know, shouting "Police, freeze" may seem stupid in some situations but without it they are assassins in blue. So far I have heard the description of a spandex hit squad with Gravitar in their sights. Sounds uncharacteristic of Incredibil, and I think something got lost in his and ChuckG's spat. Was anyone here a player in that scenario? I'd love to hear more about what happened, or even a more nuanced version by Incredibil.

I think you're hearing what you want to hear.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

1 -As others have pointed out, we don't really know the details of Incredibl's game other than the team had an easier time taking her out after she was flashed.

 

2- From CKC, page 23 under the Powers/Tactics heading, last paragraph:

"Although she is quite intelligent and capable of sustained tactical thinking, she usually prefers a straightforward approach to combat: she strikes her opponents down with seemingly casual exercises of her power, deflecting their return attacks with her defenses until she has defeated them all. She is not usually cruel, or a killer, but can easily become petty, vindictive, and potentially deadly if mocked, humiliated or otherwise annoyed."

 

Going by the above, Incredibil ran Gravitar fairly close to how she's written, as near as I can tell. You might have her throwing buildings at innocents, but that's not consistent with how she's written.

 

Going by the official write-up, it'd seem that Gravitar would directly go after the team, but you could make an argument about PCs having to spend actions dealing with things like Gravitar throwing trains full of people at them, but in general, intentionally endangering innocents doesn't seem part of her M.O.

 

3- I don't think the Ultimates would care all that much if Gravitar endangered civilians.

 

I have to say, with what is known, that I can't argue with you. She is overconfident with a capital 'O.' She's a smarmy, French, elitist mutant arrogant enough to call Dr. Destroyer a punk. Yet she is still alive after doing so, which kinda says it all.

 

Sure, she has glaring chinks in her armor but you better have hot dice to take advantage of them. She has poor sensory skills other than a 14- PER. She has little DEF against adjustment powers other than Missile Deflection (pretty darn useless unless you save your action or like to Abort a lot,) a hefty DCV (10 in her underwear) and having enormous benchmark levels to begin with so it will probably take multiple hits to really start to hamper her. She has no KB Resistance other than bracing with her Flight, which I call bad design. She has an Enraged that may make her stay and fight when she should pack it in.

 

So Invisible PCs or powers will give her a hard time. A multiple sense Flash, Images or Darkness will give her a hard time. Someone with a Vision power set (uuummm, Blackstar?) properly backed up will give her a hard time.

 

Now correct me if I'm out of line (like I needed to ask,) but she probably flies constantly while awake. She likes making people look up at her in awe. So ground pounders are scratching their butts til someone brings her down and most are going to be firing at range of at least -2 OCV. She has her FF on from the moment she wakes til the moment she sleeps, so any physical or energy attack less than 10 DC isn't going to muss her hair.

 

If you get close, blind her in a way that doesn't hamper your teammates and whale on her you may drive her away. I am seeing her react to a surprise attack with half-move straight up and Gravitic Alteration directly beneath her, possibly full move straight up if she twigs to the attack source with KS: Superguys. If she doesn't know which way is up (she should ALWAYS know which way is up, more bad design) then she still flies whichever direction she thinks is up and too bad if you are in the way. If she decides to start doing Move-thrus as a habit then be afraid; it's not like she's going to be hurt by it. Best scenario is that your team is not in the Gravitic Alteration area of effect or not hampered by it, and she didn't just open up enough range to compensate for her reduced DCV from being blinded. It could happen.

 

But not to the Ultimates. She would whup them like red-headed stepchildren.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

She has no KB Resistance other than bracing with her Flight, which I call bad design.

 

If she doesn't know which way is up (she should ALWAYS know which way is up, more bad design)

 

 

I suppose if you see character design's objective as being closure of all possible weaknesses, Gravitar is poorly designed. I call "bad design" creating a character whose abilities are inconsistent, and don't suit the purpose for which the character was created. Most Supers (Iron Man types excepted) don't get to pick their power suite.

 

To me, Gravitar is designed to be extremely powerful offensively, virtually immune to standard attacks, but to have glaring chinks in her armor, including a lack of sensory powers, a lack of exotic defenses and a personality which can be taken advantage of. That's exactly how her writeup comes across, meaning the designer got exactly the results he was aiming for. I call that good design.

 

Plugging all that holes would make me wonder how she's ever been beaten (or stalemated) by any group, meaning her lack of long-term success seems unrealistic.

 

By the way, the problem with her flying at all times is that it just enhances her exposure to knockback. Once she's disoriented by Knockback (perhaps from a 12d6 attack, 5d6 used to Spread to get an inch of knockback), she's an easy target for teammates with Flash, Adjustment or NND attacks.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I suppose if you see character design's objective as being closure of all possible weaknesses, Gravitar is poorly designed. I call "bad design" creating a character whose abilities are inconsistent, and don't suit the purpose for which the character was created. Most Supers (Iron Man types excepted) don't get to pick their power suite.

 

To me, Gravitar is designed to be extremely powerful offensively, virtually immune to standard attacks, but to have glaring chinks in her armor, including a lack of sensory powers, a lack of exotic defenses and a personality which can be taken advantage of. That's exactly how her writeup comes across, meaning the designer got exactly the results he was aiming for. I call that good design.

 

Plugging all that holes would make me wonder how she's ever been beaten (or stalemated) by any group, meaning her lack of long-term success seems unrealistic.

 

By the way, the problem with her flying at all times is that it just enhances her exposure to knockback. Once she's disoriented by Knockback (perhaps from a 12d6 attack, 5d6 used to Spread to get an inch of knockback), she's an easy target for teammates with Flash, Adjustment or NND attacks.

 

I'm not saying her lack of KB Resistance and Sense Up is bad design because it leaves Gravitar vulnerable; I'm saying she should have those abilities because of her powers. She controls up! It's what she does. To her the 'enemy gate is down' always. Fighting her you should always have the low ground against her superior position.

 

Plus mega-villains without KB Resistance end up looking ridiculous, somewhat like Dr. Doom in the FF movie. Goes flying into a garbage truck, strides menacingly from a pile of garbage. Gets clobbered into a bus, saunters down the bus' stairs. Ooooooohhhh, scary!

 

I think Gravitar would get more respect if her picture matched her description. Description is of a sexy, beautiful, young French woman. Picture is of a frumpy, chunky, middle-aged woman with a long-tailed mullet.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Oh' date=' so the only thing Gravitar ever does is try to smash cities? She couldn't possibly be attacking IHA agents when the heroes arrive?[/quote']

 

Where am I misinterpreting you here? Where am I hearing what I want to hear?

 

Maybe I play a different shade of gray HERO but if Gravitar was tearing into IHA agents when my players or almost all of my characters arrived, I or they would try to break up the fight and keep them from killing each other and harming civilians. It's not game style judgment; I have played, ran and enjoyed a Strikeforce Morituri/StormWatch kinda game. But just recently Amazing Spider-Man had a scene where Spider-Man saved a Hydra agent from other Hydra agents. That's my kind of hero. Maybe one of the key things left out of Incredibil's story was the gray scale of the game itself.

 

You started this off by trying to remind me what 6 * 5 was. I appreciate it because sometimes I forget. Thanks.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Where am I misinterpreting you here? Where am I hearing what I want to hear?

 

Maybe I play a different shade of gray HERO but if Gravitar was tearing into IHA agents when my players or almost all of my characters arrived, I or they would try to break up the fight and keep them from killing each other and harming civilians. It's not game style judgment; I have played, ran and enjoyed a Strikeforce Morituri/StormWatch kinda game. But just recently Amazing Spider-Man had a scene where Spider-Man saved a Hydra agent from other Hydra agents. That's my kind of hero. Maybe one of the key things left out of Incredibil's story was the gray scale of the game itself.

 

You started this off by trying to remind me what 6 * 5 was. I appreciate it because sometimes I forget. Thanks.

Sure. We don't have the whole story. That's one of the reasons I think it's in bad form for you to comment on Incredibl's game-style, especially because you've chosen to render judgement without all the information and seem to believe the onus is on him to change your mind. It's enough for me to hear from him that it was reasonable given that, on its face, it very well could be reasonable for the player-characters to react as they did in a four-color game given the proper context.

 

It's especially a bad idea on your part considering what transpired earlier in this thread.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I'm not saying her lack of KB Resistance and Sense Up is bad design because it leaves Gravitar vulnerable; I'm saying she should have those abilities because of her powers. She controls up! It's what she does. To her the 'enemy gate is down' always. Fighting her you should always have the low ground against her superior position.

I really have to disagree with you here. Nothing in Gravitar's write-up implies that she has any special sensory capabilities concerning gravity. Nothing!

 

Her powers, from looking at the actual character, indicate that she actively manipulates gravity - not that she's in "tune" with gravity. That means to resist knockback she needs to actively anchor herself. She has that ability. That means she has no special sensory capability regarding which way gravity goes when she's not manipulating it. That means no bump of direction.

 

It's not a bad design. It isn't a design out of character concept. It is only a bad design if you have an "arms race" mentality with character builds and get into the habit of thinking more points means justification for any application of a general SFX. I know a lot of players think this way. I game with some folks who have this sort of knee-jerk reaction, although they don't always follow it.

 

Plus mega-villains without KB Resistance end up looking ridiculous' date=' somewhat like Dr. Doom in the FF movie. Goes flying into a garbage truck, strides menacingly from a pile of garbage. Gets clobbered into a bus, saunters down the bus' stairs. Ooooooohhhh, scary![/quote'] He seemed menacing enough at times.

 

I think Gravitar would get more respect if her picture matched her description. Description is of a sexy' date=' beautiful, young French woman. Picture is of a frumpy, chunky, middle-aged woman with a long-tailed mullet. [/quote'] It's not an artistic masterpiece but you're exaggerating a lot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I really have to disagree with you here. Nothing in Gravitar's write-up implies that she has any special sensory capabilities concerning gravity. Nothing!

 

Her powers, from looking at the actual character, indicate that she actively manipulates gravity - not that she's in "tune" with gravity. That means to resist knockback she needs to actively anchor herself. She has that ability.

 

Agreed. In our zeal to avoid having our characters placed in a disadvantageous position, we rush out to purchase, and then justify, all variety of special defenses, and Knockback Resistance is a good example. Can Gravitar render herself basically immune to Knockback? Sure - bolster gravity around her (ie use her flight inches to stay in one place, rather than to move). Does she stick to the ground, weigh an exceptional amount or otherwise grip the surface of the earth reducing the effects of knockback? No, I don't believe she does.

 

That means she has no special sensory capability regarding which way gravity goes when she's not manipulating it. That means no bump of direction.

 

Again, agreed. It's an ability one could justify - becoming in tune with the gravity she controls. Seems a little subtle for her, though, and her background doesn't imply she's very creative in developing new uses of her powers (the same reason she lacks the Power skill), especially subtle ones.

 

It's not a bad design. It isn't a design out of character concept. It is only a bad design if you have an "arms race" mentality with character builds and get into the habit of thinking more points means justification for any application of a general SFX. I know a lot of players think this way. I game with some folks who have this sort of knee-jerk reaction' date=' although they don't always follow it.[/quote']

 

This is how we end up with every Energy Projector having a Multipower which is identical in every way except for special effects. "Of course my Gravity character has a Flash. he...ummm...enhances the effects of gravity on his opponent's eyelids". Ranks right up there with Avengers #110 - 111, wherein Magneto demonstrates the ability to control the minds of the X-Men and Avengers by using the iron in their bloodstream to manipulate the flow of blood to their brains. [And that predated his revitalization by Eirk the Red - shouldn't he be even better able to do that now?]

 

He seemed menacing enough at times.

 

There's a tradeoff here, of course. If every megavillain needs Knockback Resistance so they can be more impressive, then all the powerful heroes should also buy up Knockback Resistance to be impressive heroes, right? Soon, Knockback becomes irrelevant because no one is actually affected by it.

 

Now let's all buy enough Flash Defense (and/or sensory powers) that we eliminate Flash as an effective attack - after all, it's hardly impressive to be flailing around blind.

 

Actually, being detrimentally affected by any attack really isn't a mark of a powerful and impressive hero. Better buy all defenses way up, right? OK, now we have lots of impressive heroes and villains.

 

But wait - it's not very impressive when you fire off your attack and it has no effect on your opponent - what do we do now?

 

As you say, it becomes an arm's race.

[casualplayer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Awww, you got me. I was eventually going to suggest that Gravitar should have Mind Control. Man, I hate it when I'm so obvious.

[Bloodstone]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I'm gonna chime in that I don't think Gravitar is very well designed for a "master villain" type. This isn't to say she's a bad character. I just don't think she belongs in the same category as someone like Menton, Destroyer, Tekofanes or Istvatha, all of whom have fairly vast personal power, hordes of minions and subtle, campaign bending influences.

 

Gravitar, when it comes down to it, is more of a Grond/Ogre type character: a serious physical threat and little more. Just like Grond, if you have the right combination of powers on your team, Gravitar probably will fall like a house of cards. However, unlike Grond, she won't require a radiation accident to start doing more creative things with her powers. And there is nothing stoping a GM from developing her into a more serious threat by having her learn subtlety or patience. Really, it's the sort of thing that probably should happen after she gets trounced one or twice by the PC's. Gravitar, as written in CKC, is really just a young and inexperienced powerhouse. She's still got a lot to learn and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her written up quite differently in the Champions Universe Update.

 

Picture is of a frumpy, chunky, middle-aged woman with a long-tailed mullet.

 

I gotta defend the picture here a little. First, that ain't no mullet! She's just got her hair pulled back. If you look, you can see the ties under her ears. Secondly, since she's mostly an amorphous splotch of black bodysuit, cape and grandiose shoulder pads, it's hard to judge her exact shape. You see what you want to see on a pic like that. She could be ripped and rock solid, have the voluptuous body of a Miss December or be thin as a bulimic fashion model. Now, if you don’t like her face, neck or the shape of her thighs, I got nothing for ya...