By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[pendelfield]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Yea if you round up in her favor a half move would be 8" up, if you round down which I most likely would have done it would be 7"

 

And weren't the attacks at 12DC, so an average attack would be 12 body minus 1d6 for knockback. a rol of 4 or lower (12 - 4 = 8) 8" would put her back on the ground, or have I missed something. Does she have KB resis. or was braced, Just asking I just sort scanned most of this thread.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Yea if you round up in her favor a half move would be 8" up, if you round

> down which I most likely would have done it would be 7"

 

I believe the SOP for Hero system is to always round in favor of the character.

 

Ah, and I misunderstood. I had thought you meant 'rolled a 4 BODY for KB', not 'Gravitar rolled a 4 on her 1d6.'

[MitchellS]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Am I the only person here who gets the impression that Chuckg sleeps with a picture of Gravitar every night?

[pendelfield]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

My fault, I wasn't very clear the first time.

 

Yea your right on the rounding, I just have a habit of rounding a villians half-moves down. I really have no reason or explanation why either. Other than kepping them closer to the combat.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Am I the only person here who gets the impression that Chuckg sleeps with a picture of Gravitar every night?

 

Are you kidding? Out of the CU's 'Big Six' megavillains, I think she's the lamest. Scroll back and find my post in this thread about her having the long-term strategic sense of a particularly stupid gerbil, I go into more detail.

 

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter what my personal feelings about the character are -- when I do a "Who'd Win?" argument, I argue sans bias. I have spent more time and effort defending the chances of a character I've hated then I usually spend defending one I'm a fan of, simply because if facts are facts, then facts remain facts no matter how you or anyone feel about it.

[MitchellS]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Are you kidding? Out of the CU's 'Big Six' megavillains, I think she's the lamest. Scroll back and find my post in this thread about her having the long-term strategic sense of a particularly stupid gerbil, I go into more detail.

 

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter what my personal feelings about the character are -- when I do a "Who'd Win?" argument, I argue sans bias. I have spent more time and effort defending the chances of a character I've hated then I usually spend defending one I'm a fan of, simply because if facts are facts, then facts remain facts no matter how you or anyone feel about it.

Yes, yes, yes, you say that now Chuck but I think you're secretly crushing on the big G. You want her bad. You just can't figure out how to get rid of Holocaust.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Please, why should I bother have crushes on RPG characters so long as anime exists?

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... your party has people capable of delivering Invisible Power Effect (and possibly Indirect, unless the PC was hovering directly above her -- was he?)

 

The attack was from above, not indirect. It generated sufficient knockback to ground her--I do believe it was pushed.

 

 

OK, so far, we have your group having a group teleporter, a guy with a hellacious invisible (or indirect) knockback effect, autofire AP attacks, NNDs, and mental attacks. *And* they had the opportunity to set up a perfect *three-dimensional* ambush around Gravitar, not only flanking her on all sides, but also owning the sky!

 

6 PC's--a lot of attacks get covered in 6 PC's at 360 points. Especially with a Weapon Master type build a versatile power armor type, martial artists with the bag of tricks utility belt routine. They had the opportunity to get into an advantageous position against Gravitar--their execution allowed them to do it. They chose to do it in a manner than worked out for them. They could have not covered her from abaove (for a group of mainly new hero players, that would have not been suprising)

 

 

 

This entire argument started when you made the statement that an average group with half a plan and a good mentalist could down Gravitar, and you offered your own experiences as proof. The problem is, the more and more detail you provide, the less I disagree with that thesis -- as what you're describing her eis not an average party of starting characters by any stretch.

\

well, only as you imagine details or exaggerate them to defend your point. some groups of simple builds would be uniqulty vulnerable. Most groups made by seasoned players tend to cover many of the weaknesses Gravitar has.

 

 

 

 

And that's even *if* I set the Overconfidence argument entirely aside, which (points up, and see below), I'm not.

 

Of course not. I really dont care if you do, because, in my estimation, you are simply wrong about the call I made. Your interpretation of her overcondifdence not thge same that I would take. We will simply have to disagree about that matter. you can let others read the thread and ask their opinion if you like. I've looked at what you have to offer, and see nothing that indicates I played the disadvantage incorrectly.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

* re: the PCs -- well, yes, it is a matter of opinion, but I have literally never seen a party like the one you're describing in any Champions game I've ever been in save New Sentinels, and those were 750 point PCs, not 350. So I think I have some grounds for feeling the way I do.

 

* As for your statement "I've looked at what you have to offer, and see nothing that indicates I played the disadvantage incorrectly." -- you are flat wrong there. The direct rules cite I posted straight from Champs 5e revised specifically states that Moderate Psych Lims do not in any way mandate irrational levels of behavior, they merely dictate general responses. Your scenario had Gravitar acting in ways that were tactically irrational, even before her Enraged popped. Q.E. flippin' D.

 

Now, you /can/ say that in /your game/, Moderate means something else -- but that is not 'Chuckg has said nothing to back up his case', that is 'In my game, I house rule this in a completely different way'. Which is your prerogative as the DM, but... when you're house ruling something important, then that means you are no longer talking about a 'default' Champs game.

 

Which brings me back to my original point that your fight worked in your game only because of circumstances that couldn't be reasonably expected to be present in the average game. Which means your original statement still needs amending.

[pendelfield]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Anybody out there got a couple sets of boxing gloves, otherwise this thread is gona last awhile.

 

Just kidding, It reminds me of some of the game nights we use to have.

[MitchellS]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Anybody out there got a couple sets of boxing gloves, otherwise this thread is gona last awhile.

 

Just kidding, It reminds me of some of the game nights we use to have.

You Kentuckians, always wanting to fight something.

[pendelfield]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Can't help it, I guess it's the competitive nature of most of us.

 

Oh BTW incridibil may be listed as from Kansas but he's originally from Kentucky, Trust me I've witnessed some of these type debats before firsthand.

[shadow_walker]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

You Kentuckians' date=' always wanting to fight something. [/quote']

 

It keeps things from getting boring.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Only if I know that my targets are actually in the area of effect -- and she's blind, remember? As incrdrbil (agh, spelling!) described the fight, Gravitar had no idea where her opponents were from up down or Tuesday.

 

She did, in a manner of speaking. she knew she had made contact with a target from her initial attack after her half move. she was aware she had an opponent probably above her, and was aware of at least one other. The other two characters attacks, as I recall, came after her 12 action.

 

Sure, I might feel confident that even temporarily blinded, I could smash everyone around me into the dirt and hold them there until the bright spots in front of my eyes went away... but only if I know that they're actually standing where I'm going to be aiming!

 

Again, she had an area effect attck, and she was certainly aware she could toss large objects about. From her knowledge of her much weaker foes, her knowledge of her power, and her overconfidence, and he damage she had taken so farthere was simply not a reason for her to engage in full panic flight mode after the initial attacks before she acted on 12. If the entire team had hit her early, there may have been a reason.

 

As for her having to stand up--the rules note even characters in flight, in mid air, who take knockback need ot use a half phase action to reorient --so having her just take a full move straight up from the ground on two would not have been legal. a half move of just flying upwards wouldn’t put her in a better situation considering what happened on 12—so she used a power she thought would aid in a protective manner, and limit her nearby opponents. Also, per Gravitars write up, though she certainly is intelligent, her preference and normal mode is to tact in a very straightforward manner, to thrash her opposition out with her powers—simply making a half move up after reorienting/getting up just didn’t seem to fit given her personality, disadvantages, and the situation from her perspective. If you want to continue to argue that I didn not roleplay her correctly, or correctly used the overconfidence disadvantage chuckg, I suggest you stop wasting your time, and everyone elses time.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> She did, in a manner of speaking. she knew she had made contact with a

> target from her initial attack after her half move. she was aware she had an

> opponent probably above her, and was aware of at least one other. The

> other two characters attacks, as I recall, came after her 12 action.

 

Which means she still has no idea where the vast majority of the people shooting at her are -- that is no materially different from what I said.

 

> Again, she had an area effect attck, and she was certainly aware she could

> toss large objects about.

 

Irrelevant. It's 11" Radius, not MegaScale. Even Area Effect attacks require you to at least *generally* know where your opponents are, and from what you are telling me, she didn't.

 

(add) For that matter, from your description just now, she *did* know that at least two of her opponents were standing too far apart to both be hit by the AoE -- the one above her and the other one over there. (Unless I am gravely mistaken the AoE is radius, not spherical -- if she focuses it on the ground, she won't get someone standing on top of a building.)

 

> From her knowledge of her much weaker foes,

 

You have repeatedly told me that she had no idea who her opponents were. Now you have her evaluating her chances like she knows their powersets. (add) Either she knew how many and how powerful and who she was up against, or she didn't know. It can't be both at once.

 

> her knowledge of her power, and her overconfidence, and he damage she

> had taken so farthere was simply not a reason for her to engage in full

> panic flight mode [snip]

 

*Stop*.

 

I have said six times by now that 'fall back to take a Recovery' is *not* the same thing as 'full panic flight mode'. If you will not do me the respect of debating against the positions I am actually making, but instead continue to knock down straw men, then do us both a favor and just Ignore List me. You will never get anywhere, nor will you ever resolve this impasse, until you stop trying to pull these semantic shenanigans.

 

As the remainder is merely you repeating your personal opinions re: Overconfidence with no compelling reasons to make me believe them (or explain why the core rules, as written, do not apply to your interpretations), and/or rehashing points Hugh Neilson already raised (and I already answered in detail) earlier this morning, [snip].

 

> If you want to continue to argue that I didn not roleplay her correctly, or correctly used the

> overconfidence disadvantage chuckg, I suggest you stop wasting your time, and everyone elses time.

 

Coming from a man who has spent three entire days deliberately or otherwise misinterpreting the vast majority of what I've said, has repeatedly imagined insult where there was none, and consistently refuses to actually address the points I am making but instead keeps veering off into ridiculously exaggerated tangents, this latest statement of yours qualifies as truly major chutzpah.

 

I have made my positions clear at length and in detail that could only be described as 'exhaustive'. You have absolutely no excuse for failing to accurately denote what those positions are.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Which brings me back to my original point that your fight worked in your game only because of circumstances that couldn't be reasonably expected to be present in the average game. Which means your original statement still needs amending.

 

No it doesn't. Given a group of sufficient size (at least 5) and experienced players (which I doidnt have), a GM that doesn't interpret rules and disadvanatges liberally to the NPC's favor with a plan (not a suprise encounter) and just a few of the areas Gravitar is vulnerable to (mental attacks, or mosy special attacks) Gravitar can be beaten. If the players just try to beatr her down with normal atacks,

 

 

(not even hoping for lucky stun lotto results either). It's why I did choose her for that scenario over other options. It may be due to varying experiences from starting player groups--I often have mentalists, or see varying forms of non standard attacks.

 

I certainly will change Gravitar in a future apperarance for her revenge. Flash Defense..oh yeah. Maybe learn position shift. I still probably wont have her develop mental defense, but to the team's misfortune, the mentalist character is no longer around.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Which means she still has no idea where the vast majority of the people shooting at her are -- that is no materially different from what I said.

 

yes it is. You are being deliberately obtuse. she had an idea, partially, where they were, and proof that she still had offensive respnses that could connect in the face of their inability to do seriosu damage at that point. Just because you want to create a reason to ignore her disadvantage so she can run away doesnt change facts.

 

 

Irrelevant. It's 11" Radius, not MegaScale. Even Area Effect attacks require you to at least *generally* know where your opponents are, and from what you are telling me, she didn't.

 

she had some idea, as I have demonstrated. Wishful thinking on your part doesnt constiitute a refuataion.

 

(Unless I am gravely mistaken the AoE is radius, not spherical -- if she focuses it on the ground, she won't get someone standing on top of a building.)

 

It wasn't described as two dimensional, or aonly affecting characters on the ground, so yes, I had it acting as a radius; that was my intent as to how that power would function (and I had already added a personal immunity to it--so as for upgrades or necessary advantages for it to function that way, by fiat they were in existance at the start of her appearance)

 

 

 

You have repeatedly told me that she had no idea who her opponents were. Now you have her evaluating her chances like she knows their powersets.

 

she has a KS: superhuman of the currently reported superhuman population of chicago, and knowledge that no known superhuman near her power currently dwelled in chicago--so which way do you want it to suit your argument--her KS: superhumans gives her knoweldge she cant have, or it wouldn't give her an expectation of what superheroes are in Chicago?

 

 

 

 

 

I have said six times by now that 'fall back to take a Recovery' is *not* the same thing as 'full panic flight mode'.

 

You can try to cover yourself in semantics, but no one is buying what you are selling.--a full fledged withdrawl from combat is just that--retreating from the enemy (to her belief, an inferior enemy) who dont posr a major threat to her is akin to a rretreat that would conflict with her disadvantages.

 

 

If you will not do me the respect of debating against the positions I am actually making, but instead continue to knock down straw men, then do us both a favor and just Ignore List me. You will never get anywhere, nor will you ever resolve this impasse, until you stop trying to pull these semantic shenanigans.

 

You need to find a mirror, immediately.

 

 

 

Coming from a man who has spent three entire days deliberately or otherwise misinterpreting the vast majority of what I've said,

 

The misinterpretations are delusional constructions to cover up what lengths you have been trying to create circumstances, or simply deceits, to shore up your position because you cant admit your initial decision made without the benefit of information was wrong.

 

 

I have made my positions clear at length and in detail that could only be described as 'exhaustive'.

 

and the fact that no one else is buying them doesnt faze you either.....

 

.

[shadow_walker]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I certainly will change Gravitar in a future apperarance for her revenge. Flash Defense..oh yeah. Maybe learn position shift. I still probably wont have her develop mental defense, but to the team's misfortune, the mentalist character is no longer around.

 

I still don't miss that idiot. Cool character, but a worthless player.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I just don't get what is so strongly overconfident about thinking the best tactic to deal with four supers of much less power who have bushwacked me and not done much damage to me but blind me is to use my area affect TK to pin them down.

 

Why should Gravitar assume she can move out of range of their attacks by flying blind into the sky, especially when she has to right herself?

 

Sometimes, when you are at a disadvantage, the least intelligent thing to do is to try to run.

 

Considering the Ambiguity of Gravitar's position, I can't see how her moderate overconfidence wouldn't kick in.

 

Choice 1: Right myself and fly up some. Allow any possible opponents to strike at me unanswered. If they tag me with move throughs or ranged haymakers with me at half dcv, hopefully it won't be enough. I place all the intiative in their hands.

 

Choice 2: Right myself and attack with my area affect attack and place as many possible opponents off-balance as possible. If it doesn't affect some of them, it's sort of the same problem as Choice 1 just not as much, surely some of the enemy will be neutralized. If that happens, hopefully, I can get away next phase somehow. If it works real well, everything is gravy.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I apologize to everyone else for wasting your time in my argument with Chuckg. The thread has been throroughly derailed, and people drawn into a negative discussion. I dont feel bad about Chuckg not being happy, I believe people get whhat they ask for--but allowing myself to be drawn down to his level to the detriment of the forum I regret, and, far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this discussion with him

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> I just don't get what is so strongly overconfident about thinking the best

> tactic to deal with four supers

 

She didn't know how many there were.

 

> of much less power

 

She didn't know who they were.

 

> who have bushwacked me and not done much damage to me

 

Already answered this.

 

> but blind me is to use my area affect TK to pin them down.

 

Already answered this as well, but since I've only answered it once so far, and not 4-6 times, I'll recap: an area effect TK that she had very little idea where it needed to be aimed, and already had reason to be certain that she wouldn't get all of my opponents with.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> yes it is. You are being deliberately obtuse.

 

Not at all, and now you are being the one who is deceitful because you cannot sustain your argument on the validity of the facts.

 

> she had an idea, partially, where they were,

 

Which means she still couldn't have been reasonably certain to hit all, or even most, of them.

 

> and proof that she still had offensive respnses that could connect in the

> face of their inability to do seriosu damage at that point.

 

Proof that she could hit, at most, one or two of an unknown # of opponents. Again, you'd have to be more than Moderately Overconfident to think this was enough. I would never have made a PC be required to act this unwisely only at the Moderate level. They still could have chosen to, of course, but they wouldn't have *had* to.

 

> Just because you want to create a reason to ignore her disadvantage so

> she can run away doesnt change facts.

 

What facts am I changing? *You* are the one who told *me* that she did not know who or what she was up against, or more than vaguely where they were, or for certain how many there were. If you're suddenly going to take a different tack now, then it's not *I* who am changing facts.

 

[snip]

> she has a KS: superhuman of the currently reported superhuman population

> of chicago,

 

ISTR your telling me that you didn't have her roll it. But never mind.

 

> and knowledge that no known superhuman near her power

> currently dwelled in chicago--

 

You told me that Gravitar did not know who or what she was up against. Now you are talking like she was confident in her knowledge of what she was facing. You cannot have it both ways.

 

> so which way do you want it to suit your argument--her KS: superhumans

> gives her knoweldge she cant have, or it wouldn't give her an expectation

> of what superheroes are in Chicago?

 

*You* told *me* that she didn't know who her opponents were, you cannot now turn around and base an argument on the premise that she had a full census of her opposition.

 

(add) As far as your line of reasoning re: her knowing the known superhero population of Chicago -- well, that's it. The *known* superhero population of Chicago. Didn't you tell me that she was being attacked by unknowns? If she's being attacked by unknowns, then isn't that sufficient data for her to figure out that her knowledge of the superhero population of Chicago is *incomplete*?

 

> You can try to cover yourself in semantics, but no one is buying what you

> are selling.--a full fledged withdrawl from combat is just that--

 

Incorrect. A 'full-fledged withdrawal' is leaving the field and abandoning the mission. Fall back and take a recovery is *not* full retreat. To point this out is not 'covering myself in semantics', it's 'using what the words actually mean'.

 

> retreating from the enemy (to her belief, an inferior enemy)

 

An enemy that you originally told me she had no idea who, what, how powerful, or how many.

 

> who dont posr a major threat to her

 

She would have no way of knowing this unless she knew who she was up against, how many there were, and how they were set up.

 

Which she didn't.

 

[snip]

> The misinterpretations are delusional constructions to cover up what

> lengths you have been trying to create circumstances, or simply deceits, to

> shore up your position because you cant admit your initial decision made

> without the benefit of information was wrong.

 

And now we're back to you flaming away. I suppose it will be time for the thread participants to vote you another Tact Award.

 

You just reversed a major component of your own story with this 'oh, she knew what she was up against' tack today, and you expect me not to notice? And you think that pre-emptively accusing me of being the liar will inhibit me from calling you on your own switch? And that following this up with a 'I apologize for lowering the tone, I am leaving now' will keep me from responding?

 

Well, obviously not.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Most of the rest of his objections were already answered, but as for this...

 

a GM that doesn't interpret rules and disadvanatges liberally to the NPC's favor

 

I suppose this is another example of my 'delusional constructions', where I so viciously and falsely accuse incrdbil of deliberately putting words in my mouth that I never said.

 

Oh, wait. I *didn't* actually say this.

 

Given that I have repeatedly pointed out that I would have used the same rules interpretations re: psychological limitations and flight for a PC in my games as I would have used for Gravitar (add -- for that matter, I *have used* the same rules interps for psych lims in my games as I would have used for Gravitar), if you're now going to claim that I "interpret rules and disadvantages liberally to the NPC's favor", then you are lying. (add) Every single one of my players is on this board. Most, if not all of them, have looked at this thread. And they are perfectly justified in citing what I have said here re: moderate, strong, and total psychological limitations in future rules arguments in my game.

 

Yesterday, you would not have been lying, merely mistaken -- as I hadn't made this point clear yet. By today, however, I had made that point more than explicitly clear -- and yet you still made this claim anyway. To *knowingly* make a false statement is not a mistake, it's flat-out BS, and you just crossed the line into it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

You have repeatedly told me that she had no idea who her opponents were. Now you have her evaluating her chances like she knows their powersets. (add) Either she knew how many and how powerful and who she was up against' date=' or she didn't know. It can't be both at once.[/quote']

 

To me, an Overconfident character (and particularly one whose confidence in her abilities is backed up by the fact there are very few characters of similar or greater power) would assume that an unknown foe is much weaker than she, and not potentially an equal or someone who may be capable of taking her down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Chuck, a question that hadn't occured to me (or, apparently, anyone else) previously, Your argument, in part, hangs on Gravitar's lack of knowledge of her foes meaning she would be concerned that she could be defeated (ie their attacks may be able to take her down while she's blind) so she should flee straight up.

 

Leaving aside all issues of what "overconfidence" may mean in this situation for now.

 

If she is concerned that these unknowns have attacks that can defeat her, and defenses that can withstand her long enough to carry out these attacks, why is she dead set certain that her movement powers are superior, and fight upwards won't result in getting KO's anyway, followed by a lengthy fall and a sudden stop at the bottom?

 

Does she only believe in the superiority of her movement speed, and not her attacks and defenses?