By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

To me' date=' an Overconfident character (and particularly one whose confidence in her abilities is backed up by the fact there are very few characters of similar or greater power) would assume that an unknown foe is much weaker than she, and not potentially an equal or someone who may be capable of taking her down.[/quote']

 

Inside the space of three seconds, they took away her eyesight, slapped her into the ground, and started penetrating her defenses multiple times. This is not something Gravitar is used to... how often does it happen to her?

 

Sure, an Overconfident character will look at pretty much any bunch of total strangers and, before the pounding starts, default immediately to the mental position of 'Ahhh, whoever these guys are, I can take them.'

 

*After* they start getting slapped around, though, it takes a higher level (i.e. -- Strong or Total) of Overconfidence to still be thinking that, instead of starting to become aware "Wait a minute, this isn't working like it usually does..."

 

(add) And paradoxically, her not knowing who these people are would actually make her *less* certain. If she knew her opponents, then she could go 'Wait a minute -- I know these guys! They're beginning puds! They just got lucky with that first shot! OK, time to rumble!'

 

As is, she didn't know who they were, which means that for all she knew she'd walked into an ambush set by his game world's equivalent of the New Sentinels, or whatever other 'worldbeater' NPC team might happen to be walking around. Granted, she knows that no such team lives in Chicago, but hey, for a chance to take down a villain of her stature, superheroes have been known to make road trips.

 

And given that her last three Phases probably had her being slapped around more than she probably has been in her last three fights, total, the suspicion that she had walked into a powerful ambush is not an entirely unreasonable suspicion.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> If she is concerned that these unknowns have attacks that can defeat her,

> and defenses that can withstand her long enough to carry out these

> attacks, why is she dead set certain that her movement powers are

> superior, and fight upwards won't result in getting KO's anyway, followed by

> a lengthy fall and a sudden stop at the bottom?

 

Simple. She's not certain.

 

She doesn't /have/ to be certain, that's the thing. When the alternative is staying exactly on the spot marked X and continuing to eat the combined firepower of whatever unknown forces with unknown (but "obviously" noteworthy, given that they so rapidly blinded her, grounded her, and started hurting her) powers, falling back has better odds.

 

The reasoning is something like 'If I try to open the range, I may get hurt. If I keep standing here, I *WILL* get hurt.'

 

(add) According to what incrdrbil said, she was grounded the first time because she wasn't expecting, or braced against, Knockback. The second time around, she obviously would be forewarned -- and if she remembers which direction the first knockdown bolt came from, then that's a direction she knows not to fly towards again. This would have to be taken into account when trying to figure out how Gravitar would evaluate her chances of taking to the air again.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Either that, or Gravitar could simply take off *sideways* if she felt she needed some cover -- between her flight and her defenses, she's more than capable of just punching her way *through* a building. And the heroes, of course, couldn't shoot into a building after her.

 

A few Segments and a couple of eye blinks later, she can see again, is feeling nice and fresh, and ready to come around the other side of the building and start thrashing people.

 

And she'd hardly be the first megavillain to try and use a crowd as cover.

 

This is the Iron Age option, natch. In a Bronze or Silver Age campaign, supervillains very seldom try to apple-core a skyscraper unless they're supposed to be inhumanly degenerate.

[CBikle]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I apologize to everyone else for wasting your time in my argument with Chuckg. The thread has been throroughly derailed' date=' and people drawn into a negative discussion. I dont feel bad about Chuckg not being happy, I believe people get whhat they ask for--but allowing myself to be drawn down to his level to the detriment of the forum I regret, and, far as I'm concerned, I'm done with this discussion with him[/quote']

 

Actually, this is the part of the thread I liked.

 

Occasionally I wonder if people unfamiliar with the Hero System happen across these "this guy vs. that guy" threads and, if so, does the mechanics gamespeak

spark interest in learning the game or does it just bore them ?

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Well, the prior debate did have much educational value re: certain rules interpretations... heck, the Eurostar/Gravitar debate reminded me of rules I'd forgotten.

[Susano]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Susano starts thinking.... 5th Edition Shion Nys versus Gravitar....

 

Hmm.... 40 STR each... 26 DEX each... 25 CON each... 6 SPD each... Gravitar has about 100 points on Shion (887 to 1,000). 70 STR TK versus (what did you say? 100?)... hmm... Oh, wait, there's the big difference -- 54 DEF versus 37 [42 if you allow stacking). Okay, Shion is going to lose this, but even Gravitar can't laugh off 18d6 EBs and 6d6 RKAs. Err.. can she?

 

Note to self -- don't run this, it won't end happy for anyone involved.

 

On the other hand, having the three-way, Shion, Gravitar, Istavan mud-wrestling match would be priceless! (They all have 40 STR, 26 DEX, 6 SPDs, and COMs of 20-24+! Oh, and are all around 6' in height.).

[Pogo]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

This line

Please' date=' why should I bother have crushes on RPG characters so long as anime exists? [/quote']

in conjunction with this tagline

Hastur! Hastur! Hastur! Ia, Ia, Cthulhu fhtagn!

induces this reaction

 

I'm gonna taunt Gravytarred now. That should make the pain go away.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

The Mythos is not anime.

 

Besides, I put that .sig up as a reaction to the SAN loss I took from a really bad month on NGD anyway.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

To me' date=' an Overconfident character (and particularly one whose confidence in her abilities is backed up by the fact there are very few characters of similar or greater power) would assume that an unknown foe is much weaker than she, and not potentially an equal or someone who may be capable of taking her down.[/quote']

 

I think most of the 'overconfidence' disagreement is silly anyway. There are two kinds of master villains: those who are upfront and in your face and those work behind the scenes. Gravitar is clearly the former and, disad (at whatever level) or no, would obviously turn and face these attackers who dared sneak attack her 'mightness'. From a role-(not roll)playing or metagaming standpoint it is quite 'in-genre' for her to instinctely react this way and thus seems a perfectly reasonable ploy for a GM to take IMO.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I think most of the 'overconfidence' disagreement is silly anyway. There are two kinds of master villains: those who are upfront and in your face and those work behind the scenes. Gravitar is clearly the former and' date=' disad (at whatever level) or no, would obviously turn and face these attackers who dared sneak attack her 'mightness'. From a role-(not roll)playing or metagaming standpoint it is quite 'in-genre' for her to instinctely react this way and thus seems a perfectly reasonable ploy for a GM to take IMO.[/quote']

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

From a role-(not roll)playing or metagaming standpoint it is quite 'in-genre' for her to instinctely react this way and thus seems a perfectly reasonable ploy for a GM to take IMO.

 

If we're going to talk about from a metagaming standpoint, then here's my opinion -- from a metagaming standpoint, running villains as stupider than they're supposed to be would only cause dissatisfaction among my players. We *hate* the 'jobber syndrome'.

 

Or, as I said earlier, if you're gonna go this route then why not just put parsley behind her ears, stuff an apple in her mouth, and ring a dinner bell?

 

Yes, indeed, there are oodles of comics where the villain does indeed act conveniently stupid so as to get the story to its conclusion on time.

 

Those comics are usually quite forgettable.

 

Then there's the comics where the villain, you know, doesn't do this, but instead makes the heroes really work for the win instead of conveniently walking straight into a blitzkrieg.

 

Those comics are usually *not* forgettable.

 

I much prefer the latter approach.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If we're going to talk about from a metagaming standpoint, then here's my opinion -- from a metagaming standpoint, running villains as stupider than they're supposed to be would only cause dissatisfaction among my players. We *hate* the 'jobber syndrome'.

 

Or, as I said earlier, if you're gonna go this route then why not just put parsley behind her ears, stuff an apple in her mouth, and ring a dinner bell?

 

Yes, indeed, there are oodles of comics where the villain does indeed act conveniently stupid so as to get the story to its conclusion on time.

 

Those comics are usually quite forgettable.

 

Then there's the comics where the villain, you know, doesn't do this, but instead makes the heroes really work for the win instead of conveniently walking straight into a blitzkrieg.

 

Those comics are usually *not* forgettable.

 

I much prefer the latter approach.

So Gravitar never rampages through cities?

 

'Cuz that's about the only way for her not to make herself open to a possible ambush like the one Incredibl described.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Everyone, forgive me for getting involved here, but I do have a question for ChuckG.

 

ChuckG as near as I can tell the only significant change you would have made with Gravitar is that on her second action she would have opened the range by flying straigh up and than taking a recovery. Am I correct? Given that the most she could have done that phase is move 15" straight up (Fred page 85 Improved Acceleration/Deceleration). There is already one opponent at least 9" up, and she would probably still have heard whatever triggered her Enraged. Why do you think that would have significantly altered the situation?

 

Edit: and one of her attackers is a mentalist so range mods wouldn't apply to them.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> ChuckG as near as I can tell the only significant change you would have

> made with Gravitar is that on her second action she would have

> opened the range by flying straight up and than taking a recovery.

> Am I correct?

 

Actually, given that she was being top attacked successfully once already, I would have opened the range sideways and up, with the sideways component being opposite to the original knockdown attack. And given that she was already blinded -- which means 0 DCV vs. Ranged attackers -- she has nothing to lose by going for full NCM, especially since 'Velocity-Based DCV' would have /improved/ her situation.

 

After all, she'd *tried* straight up already, and it hadn't worked. That doesn't mean 'I'm trapped here', necessarily, but it does mean 'Perhaps another way'.

 

Optional Iron Age version -- 'sideways' means 'through a building', thus providing her with concealment and some amount of hard cover vs. the attacks of all her attackers, as 'shooting blindly through a building to reach Gravitar', not on the options list of most superheroes. However, unless the DM uses cinematic survival for all the poor normals in the building, it is, ummm, iron age.

 

[snip]

> Edit: and one of her attackers is a mentalist so range mods wouldn't

> apply to them.

 

No, but if the mentalist was capable of CON Stunning Gravitar /without/ coordinating an attack with the others, I think it would have happened already by Segment 2. Which it didn't.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

So Gravitar never rampages through cities?

 

Reading her writeup, 'rampage randomly through cities' seems to be very low on her to-do list. 'Pick fights with superteams and/or military contingents', otoh, she does often. But of course, if she's flying out to challenge you, then she's obviously not going to be surprised by you.

 

(add)

 

Opening my CKC again, I notice that the suggested plot seeds for Gravitar were things like 'Threaten to bombard the Earth with asteroids unless rulership of Earth is turned over to her in 24 hours' (and yes, the scenario seed strongly suggested she was bluffing, as she's not *that* powerful), or 'team up with VIPER, who hooks her to a power-boosting device that lets her bring an entire city to a standstill', or 'call out Doctor Destroyer to a mano-a-mano matchup on worldwide TV'.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that second one, as it contradicts the 'Gravitar doesn't do team-ups' emphasis of her personality, but the first and third sound appropriately overconfident and in line with her strategic acumen and goals, while not *quite* being on the level of terminal idiocy. (Gravitar at least has a measurable chance of surviving solo combat vs. Destroyer, even if her odds of winning are nowhere near what she thinks they are.)

 

OTOH, 'go Godzilla through cities' appears to be neither in line with her M.O., her personality, or the theme of her sample adventure ideas.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> ChuckG as near as I can tell the only significant change you would have

> made with Gravitar is that on her second action she would have

> opened the range by flying straight up and than taking a recovery.

> Am I correct?

 

Actually, given that she was being top attacked successfully once already, I would have opened the range sideways and up, with the sideways component being opposite to the original knockdown attack. And given that she was already blinded -- which means 0 DCV vs. Ranged attackers -- she has nothing to lose by going for full NCM, especially since 'Velocity-Based DCV' would have /improved/ her situation.

 

After all, she'd *tried* straight up already, and it hadn't worked. That doesn't mean 'I'm trapped here', necessarily, but it does mean 'Perhaps another way'.

 

Optional Iron Age version -- 'sideways' means 'through a building', thus providing her with concealment and some amount of hard cover vs. the attacks of all her attackers, as 'shooting blindly through a building to reach Gravitar', not on the options list of most superheroes. However, unless the DM uses cinematic survival for all the poor normals in the building, it is, ummm, iron age.

 

My problem here is that she can not go "full NCM". It takes her four phases to reach her full NCM velocity. From Fred (page 84, sorry I got the page refrence wrong on the first post): "Normally a character can only accelerate up to his Combat Movement velocity per Phase, and only at the rate of 5" per hex moved. For a +1/4 Advantage,..." On that second phase all she is going to do at most is a full combat move. Given that she is blinded it is probably going to be in a straight line. If she goes up any distance she is going to lose 2" of flight for each 1" she goes, which means she either isn't going to go very high or she isn't going to go very far. Now depending on how generous the GM is feeling towards her, because of the blindness or prone factor (she did not spend the half phase getting reoriented so she still has the penalties for being prone) her DCV is some where between 5 and 8. She will need to get at least 5" from them to get up to her normal non-defensive stance DCV against them, and 33" to make up what she has lost for being prone/blinded. I'm not seeing where she would have had a significant option to open the range on that second phase.

 

As for going into buildings, she would have to start considering if she can generate enough velocity to bust through the wall in the space she has, or if she is going to have to do a multipower attack. She would probably in the second case run a good chance of bringing the building down on herself. Which is actually probably the best possible choice. It would cut off LOS. It would also mean that the attacks would need some pretty impressive Indirect to reach her. She could probably survive, and it would give her the time to recover from the flash. Probably would have kept her from hearing the taunts to trigger her Enraged. The problem is that I just can't picture a tactic quite that devious coming out of her to do it deliberitly. If it happened, it would to me seem more likely to be a happy accident. I just can't see her thinking of something that non-linear.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Reading her writeup, 'rampage randomly through cities' seems to be very low on her to-do list. 'Pick fights with superteams and/or military contingents', otoh, she does often. But of course, if she's flying out to challenge you, then she's obviously not going to be surprised by you.

 

(add)

 

Opening my CKC again, I notice that the suggested plot seeds for Gravitar were things like 'Threaten to bombard the Earth with asteroids unless rulership of Earth is turned over to her in 24 hours' (and yes, the scenario seed strongly suggested she was bluffing, as she's not *that* powerful), or 'team up with VIPER, who hooks her to a power-boosting device that lets her bring an entire city to a standstill', or 'call out Doctor Destroyer to a mano-a-mano matchup on worldwide TV'.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that second one, as it contradicts the 'Gravitar doesn't do team-ups' emphasis of her personality, but the first and third sound appropriately overconfident and in line with her strategic acumen and goals, while not *quite* being on the level of terminal idiocy. (Gravitar at least has a measurable chance of surviving solo combat vs. Destroyer, even if her odds of winning are nowhere near what she thinks they are.)

 

OTOH, 'go Godzilla through cities' appears to be neither in line with her M.O., her personality, or the theme of her sample adventure ideas.

Now, now - no one said rampage like Godzilla. I could swear somewhere there is a plot seed with Gravitar getting in a huge public fight in a city. Might have something to do with Holocaust. I'll try to look it up. And why did you add "randomly" to my question? Why don't you answer the question I asked you instead of twisting it?

 

I really think you're reaching with your position.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

My problem here is that she can not go "full NCM". It takes her four phases to reach her full NCM velocity. From Fred (page 84, sorry I got the page refrence wrong on the first post): "Normally a character can only accelerate up to his Combat Movement velocity per Phase, and only at the rate of 5" per hex moved. For a +1/4 Advantage,..." On that second phase all she is going to do at most is a full combat move. Given that she is blinded it is probably going to be in a straight line. If she goes up any distance she is going to lose 2" of flight for each 1" she goes, which means she either isn't going to go very high or she isn't going to go very far. Now depending on how generous the GM is feeling towards her, because of the blindness or prone factor (she did not spend the half phase getting reoriented so she still has the penalties for being prone) her DCV is some where between 5 and 8. She will need to get at least 5" from them to get up to her normal non-defensive stance DCV against them, and 33" to make up what she has lost for being prone/blinded. I'm not seeing where she would have had a significant option to open the range on that second phase.

 

As for going into buildings, she would have to start considering if she can generate enough velocity to bust through the wall in the space she has, or if she is going to have to do a multipower attack. She would probably in the second case run a good chance of bringing the building down on herself. Which is actually probably the best possible choice. It would cut off LOS. It would also mean that the attacks would need some pretty impressive Indirect to reach her. She could probably survive, and it would give her the time to recover from the flash. Probably would have kept her from hearing the taunts to trigger her Enraged. The problem is that I just can't picture a tactic quite that devious coming out of her to do it deliberitly. If it happened, it would to me seem more likely to be a happy accident. I just can't see her thinking of something that non-linear.

Or that demeaning.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Now, now - no one said rampage like Godzilla.

 

'Rampages through cities' seemed to suggest such, but very well. The answer is still 'no'.

 

> I could swear somewhere there is a plot seed with Gravitar getting in a

> huge public fight in a city. Might have something to do with Holocaust.

 

I think you're referring to 'Viperia & Gravitar discover that they are kindred spirits (uberpowerful spoiled brats), and go smash up the venue like a pair of Sloane Rangers on holiday'. From Viperia's writeup in the VIPER sourcebook.

 

Note however that even in this scenario, Gravitar has somebody to watch her back.

 

> Why don't you answer the question I asked you instead of twisting it?

 

I did. The answer was 'no, she doesn't, and here's why I think so'. Gravitar might not have *much* of a global domination plan, but she does still have a plan -- random urban destruction really doesn't have much of a point as regardes her schemes.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> My problem here is that she can not go "full NCM". It takes her four

> phases to reach her full NCM velocity. [snip]

 

In that case, we switch to plan '30 hexes sideways and a little up, with the sideways component being away from the guy who did Knockback earlier'.

 

Plan 'fly through a building' isn't quite appropriate here, even if it would work better.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Then I'd put in a left-handed batter.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Now, now - no one said rampage like Godzilla.

 

'Rampages through cities' seemed to suggest such, but very well. The answer is still 'no'.

 

> I could swear somewhere there is a plot seed with Gravitar getting in a

> huge public fight in a city. Might have something to do with Holocaust.

 

I think you're referring to 'Viperia & Gravitar discover that they are kindred spirits (uberpowerful spoiled brats), and go smash up the venue like a pair of Sloane Rangers on holiday'. From Viperia's writeup in the VIPER sourcebook.

 

Note however that even in this scenario, Gravitar has somebody to watch her back.

 

> Why don't you answer the question I asked you instead of twisting it?

 

I did. The answer was 'no, she doesn't, and here's why I think so'. Gravitar might not have *much* of a global domination plan, but she does still have a plan -- random urban destruction really doesn't have much of a point as regardes her schemes.

CKC p. 159, "...since they [Holocaust and Gravitar] take their anger out on each other by battling in the middle of New York City. The PCs have to stop this "lover's spat.""

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> My problem here is that she can not go "full NCM". It takes her four

> phases to reach her full NCM velocity. [snip]

 

In that case, we switch to plan '30 hexes sideways and a little up, with the sideways component being away from the guy who did Knockback earlier'.

 

Plan 'fly through a building' isn't quite appropriate here, even if it would work better.

Doesn't sound particularly effective to me.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Doesn't sound particularly effective to me.

 

The range penalty for 30 hexes is -6. Given that they were already spread out, that means that a couple of them (those who were on the side she went towards) are taking only -4 or so, while all those on the other side are taking -8 or more.

 

If this causes even a *couple* of them to miss her, then she still stays up, and is able to continue to keep earning that Range Penalty, at which point either they all have No Range Penalty attacks or they're all hitting nothing but air.

 

And as soon as her eyesight returns, natch, it's all bets are off time. She doesn't have to keep this up for long.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

CKC p. 159' date=' "...since they [Holocaust and Gravitar'] take their anger out on each other by battling in the middle of New York City. The PCs have to stop this "lover's spat.""

 

*nods*

 

On the other hand, the PCs do not have a free ambush vs. Gravitar here /anyway/ -- not only do they have all the collateral damage to deal with and all those civilians to protect, but they've also got Holocaust to deal with. This means that lengthy prep time is a luxury they won't be enjoying.

 

Plus, 'lovers' spats' are not a routine event for Gravitar, so all this does is change my answer of 'no' to 'very infrequently'.

 

(add) Plus -- Gravitar *and* Holocaust? I would never run this scenario for a typical team of 350-pointers... they were in enough trouble just dealing with *one* of them. With both of them? I might as well send them up against Takofanes. *pain*