By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[Zed-F]

Since Gravitar has no hope against the Crowns...

 

We shall assume a meeting encounter, with neither side surprised nor particularly prepared.

 

Assume all fliers may start about a half move up in the air, or at ground level, at their option. Assume all Ultimates are within about a half-move of at least one teammate, and the two sides start 20" apart.

[Metaphysician]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Going off memory, Ultimates are screwed. Binder, Blackstar, and Slick are useless, and the only one of the others with anything capable of hurting her is Radium with his NND, IIRC, except that he's ground bound, and thus probably won't hit her before he's crushed by the high grav field.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Howabout Firelord or Holocaust vs. the Ultimates?

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Firewing has 40/40 resistant defenses... and 100 Active Point attacks. So long as he can avoid Blackstar's haymaker, which brings us back to 'ground-bound bricks hate flying energy blasters', he can definitely inflict damage.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Give any villain group the chance to hire utility, and they win. Flash attack, blind her, hit her beyond her high grav area, she's down.

 

My PC's fought her ealry on, and beat her handily. If you have a smidgeon of a plan (or flash attacks or a good mentalist) Gravitar falls hard.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Going off memory' date=' Ultimates are screwed. Binder, Blackstar, and Slick are useless, and the only one of the others with anything capable of hurting her is Radium with his NND, IIRC, except that he's ground bound, and thus probably won't hit her before he's crushed by the high grav field.[/quote']

 

If cyclone ccna convince Blackstar not to cry about hsi fear of heights, he could do a bomb from above movethrough with Blackstar that might stun Gravitar. Max speed drop from above, then Blackstar turns on max DI before impact.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

incdribl -- and how did this Flash attack lower her defenses? Sure, Flash vs. Sight renders her temporarily unable to attack you (except with Area Effect attacks, as she can hose those off blind-fire and still connect), but it does *not* get around the problem of CON Stunning someone who has 54 PD/ED, 30 Resistant. Which means, she had to stand still while blinded, and let you pound on her a while.

 

Why? If I were Gravitar and I were Flashed, I'd simply -- fly away in a direction I knew was free of obstructions (the sky), and open the range up until my eyesight came back. It's Flash, not Mental Entangle.

 

And then, after my eyesight came back, I'd 100 STR TK (don't laugh, she has it) the nearest cruise liner and throw it to crush the entire city block your team was standing on.

 

... more seriously, she has that kind of power. If you annoy her enough, she's literally capable of dropping skyscrapers. Sounds like your fight vs. Gravitar had her fighting /way/ under par.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If cyclone ccna convince Blackstar not to cry about hsi fear of heights' date=' he could do a bomb from above movethrough with Blackstar that might stun Gravitar. Max speed drop from above, then Blackstar turns on max DI before impact.[/quote']

 

... again, you have Gravitar standing still and not reacting to events going on around her. How is she supposed to not notice this coming? God knows it'll take at least half a Turn for Cyclone to simply gain enough altitude(1) -- and even that's only if Gravitar is nailing herself to one particular hex in the sky, because she flies around faster than he does.

 

(edit) Well, not MegaScale, but he's not using *that* on a tactical combat scale...

 

 

 

(1) I am assuming that you are taking Blackstar up high enough that he'll have built up a nicely huge velocity on his way down.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

incdribl -- and how did this Flash attack lower her defenses? Sure' date=' Flash vs. Sight renders her temporarily unable to attack you (except with Area Effect attacks, as she can hose those off blind-fire and still connect), but it does *not* get around the problem of CON Stunning someone who has 54 PD/ED, 30 Resistant. Which means, she had to stand still while blinded, and let you pound on her a while.[/quote']

 

Coordinated attacks will work towards the stunning--thats how my team of PC's soon handled her.

 

 

And then, after my eyesight came back, I'd 100 STR TK (don't laugh, she has it) the nearest cruise liner and throw it to crush the entire city block your team was standing on.

 

Well, thats the thing--never let her eyesight come back, or do what you need to do while its gone. Gravitar does have raw power, and you can't just let the fight go on forever, or, even blinded, she'll do some damage. (I had her, among other troubling affects with the area TK, ripping down building facings, and general crushing everything in the direction. She did get a good grip on one PC, and the -9 body he was at wasn't ignored at the end of the fight.

 

... more seriously, she has that kind of power. If you annoy her enough, she's literally capable of dropping skyscrapers. Sounds like your fight vs. Gravitar had her fighting /way/ under par.

 

Nope--the team did play to some of her disadvantages, and did get a great salvo in first thanks to that. (She was rather more focused on some IHA activity at the time, and a PC mutant ran a good spiel while the rest of the team got in place.) She did have one attempted escape action, but got planted back on the ground (The PC's knew a flight till she could see bit would doom them). The others, I didn't have her take due to her disadvantages.

 

Sure, she's powerful, but teams have the advantage of numbers-- and thats even before you start to add the effects of planning or surprise.

 

Her flight capabilities were a bit hampered by terrain--and they even found ways to use some of her powers against her. Her TK area effect field has a pretty obvious radius

 

She's got glaring, obvious weaknesses (no flash defense, no life support, and painful Overconfidence). The PC's were about 360 points at that time, 12 DC, 75 point active powers. She has no ego defense, and the team mentalist went to town (especially after the ego drain power he had hit her). She was then hampered by mental illusions, then haymakered and pushed ego attacks. They had NND's she had no defense for (vs Armor, vs Life support). There were 6 of them; given they planned what to do, got in surprise hits and stuck to plan, it would have been surprising if they didn't win, to be honest.

 

The kept hitting, they eventually got some coordination going, and once she was stunned, she was on eternal defensive and was soon planted hard by a pretty Kamikaze series of coordinated move throughs by the brick and power armor guy. (And yes, her area effect TK field was going--in fact, she had centered it around her (I actually had increased her power and gave her personal immunity), but they came in from directly above. they had enough strength to maintain control of their flight..squish.

 

The weapon specialist had some big help in this, having a 3 shot autofirearmor piercing killing attack (vs a usually low DCV target), the initial big flash attack, and then some gas based NND's. No one killing attack one the stun lotto, but 3 hits a time getting from 5 to 10 stun in adds up with other attacks. He's also the one Gravitar put to -9 body.

 

I could have meta gamed and acted on knowledge she didn't have about the PC's, and the situation--if she had instantly just left the field at the very first attack she would have had a much better chance. I could have ignored her disadvantages, and not have her still certain she could beat these upstarts despite their temporary disadvantage, or flubbed the enraged rolls.

 

Even without the surprise effect, a reasonably competent team with a variety of attacks beyond the standard normal ones should have an even chance of taking her down, unless they unfortunately are straight up fighters--no mentalists, NND's..a team filled with bricks, martial artists, and close up combatants will be virtually helpless I admit, even with surprise and a lot of advantages. Many experienced teams may have a problem if Gravitar gets the drop on them. And my PC's will find out eventually Strongholds ability to hold someone like Gravitar looks good.... on paper.

 

Sure, trying to go mass firepower, stun then beat down Gravitar straight up wont be a walkover. Canny teams (supposedly like the Ultimates) wouldn't go that route. Yeah--if they meet up on an empty construction site in the middle of an open desert, Gravitar wins. With her eyes closed.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Coordinated attacks will work towards the stunning--thats how my

> team of PC's soon handled her.

 

You could coordinate eight separate 14d6 attacks on her and not come *close* to stunning. What were you /throwing/?

 

> Well, thats the thing--never let her eyesight come back, or do what

> you need to do while its gone.

 

She can disengage at 120" per Phase -- if she's already blinded, the penalties for NCM are moot anyway. So how are you preventing her from leaving? I know of extremely few (read: none) PC parties that can move 120" / Segment at SPD 6 and still be effectively attacking.

 

[snip]

> Nope--the team did play to some of her disadvantages, and did get a

> great salvo in first thanks to that. (She was rather more focused on

> some IHA activity at the time, and a PC mutant ran a good spiel while

> the rest of the team got in place.) She did have one attempted escape

> action, but got planted back on the ground (The PC's knew a flight till

> she could see bit would doom them).

 

> The others, I didnt have her take due to her disadvantages.

 

What disadvantages? Her only disadvantage is Moderate Overconfidence. What you're describing sounds like Total Overconfidence along with Phys Lim: Imbecile.

 

[snip]

> She's got glaring, obvious weaknesses (no flash defense, no life

> support, and painful Overconfidence).

 

Moderate Overconfidence.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Coordinated attacks will work towards the stunning--thats how my

> team of PC's soon handled her.

 

You could coordinate eight separate 14d6 attacks on her and not come *close* to stunning. What were you /throwing/?

 

> Well, thats the thing--never let her eyesight come back, or do what

> you need to do while its gone.

 

She can disengage at 120" per Phase -- if she's already blinded, the penalties for NCM are moot anyway. So how are you preventing her from leaving?

 

[snip]

> Nope--the team did play to some of her disadvantages, and did get a

> great salvo in first thanks to that. (She was rather more focused on

> some IHA activity at the time, and a PC mutant ran a good spiel while

> the rest of the team got in place.) She did have one attempted escape

> action, but got planted back on the ground (The PC's knew a flight till

> she could see bit would doom them).

 

> The others, I didnt have her take due to her disadvantages.

 

What disadvantages? Her only disadvantage is Moderate Overconfidence. (edit: and 11- Enraged). What you're describing sounds like Total Overconfidence along with Phys Lim: Imbecile.

 

[snip]

> She's got glaring, obvious weaknesses (no flash defense, no life

> support, and painful Overconfidence).

 

Moderate Overconfidence.

 

[snip]

> I could have metagamed and acted on knowledge she didnt have about

> the PC's, and the situation--

 

Do your PCs have Reputations? Even if they don't, did you roll Gravitar's KS:Superhuman World, 14-?

 

It's hardly 'metagaming' to have a villain know *something* about the superheroes they're facing -- sure, you have to separate what you as the DM know from what the villain knows, but villains, in-character, can still read up on heroes. And given that 14- KS, Gravitar apparently does. Was this their very first adventure? Do they exist absolutely outside the public record, a la 'urban legend' time?

 

> if she had instantly just left the field at the very first attack she would

> have had a much better chance.

 

Oh, hardly at 'the very first attack'. Merely 'as soon as I was blinded'.

 

OTOH, it sounds like you also hit her Enraged trigger. Did the heroes luck into it, or did they metagame to find out about it? Or did you let *them* roll their KS: Superhuman World... but not Gravitar?

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

OTOH' date=' it sounds like you also hit her Enraged trigger. Did the heroes luck into it, or did they metagame to find out about it? Or did you let *them* roll their KS: Superhuman World... but not Gravitar?[/quote']

 

 

I've never played with a group in any genre that wouldn't have hit her Enraged without even trying. Everybody taunts their opponents.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... odd, most Champions groups I'm in *don't* taunt. (Well, Malleable Man in 'Aegis' had a mouth on him like Peter Parker, but even he shut up sometimes.)

 

OTOH, an Enraged Gravitar, blinded, should have been doing something like TK Grabbing that DCV 0 building over there and trying to smash the entire group to death with it, not just standing around going 'null'.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

You could coordinate eight separate 14d6 attacks on her and not come *close* to stunning. What were you /throwing/?

 

she was being hit by AP autofire attacks, NND's, ego attacks, and at variosu times, pushed/haymakered attacks.

 

 

She can disengage at 120" per Phase -- if she's already blinded, the penalties for NCM are moot anyway. So how are you preventing her from leaving?

 

Enough overconfidence to stay and fight a bit..and once you are enraged, running isnt in the playbook. she doesnt have instant noncombat acceleration.., and was put back on the ground via knockback at least once I recall.

 

 

 

What disadvantages? Her only disadvantage is Moderate Overconfidence. (edit: and 11- Enraged). What you're describing sounds like Total Overconfidence along with Phys Lim: Imbecile.

Moderate Overconfidence is a disadvantage--if she had total overconfidecne, she would have not had tried any withdrawl actions. On the first couple of phases, fighting a group of unknowns, she decided to not immediately run from them, but strike back, holding her own defensively until she could see and crus them. Then a period of enraged kicked in.

 

I tend to make my players abide my disadvantages even when they would rather not have them, same thing for Villains. Unless playing against a villains ego is 'imbecilic' for the superhero genre. After all, as a GM. I'm running a game, not playing against the players.

 

Do your PCs have Reputations? Even if they don't, did you roll Gravitar's KS:Superhuman World, 14-?

 

Let's see, they were a new team--not wel known at the time. As for individual reputations, the one PC she interacted with she was aware of his 'mutant advocate' reputation. Once she was blinded, attacked and enraged she wasn't doing individual tactical assesments.

 

Now that they are a well known team, with documented stories, adventures..the next time they meet, that 14- knowledge skill wont even need to be rolled.

 

It's hardly 'metagaming' to have a villain know *something* about the superheroes they're facing -- sure, you have to separate what you as the DM know from what the villain knows, but villains, in-character, can still read up on heroes.

 

Her initial appearance wasn't even focused on the superheroes, so she wasn't prepping for them, and really had no reason to prep for them. (In fact, as suggsted by the Champions Universe, which I play in, Chicago heroes normally act alone, not in teams-from that viewpoint, her KS would have told her that, at best, she might encounter a few solo metahumans)

 

And given that 14- KS, Gravitar apparently does. Was this their very first adventure?

It was their first big public adventure as a team. As individuals in a prior adventure, they had soem coverage.

 

Oh, hardly at 'the very first attack'. Merely 'as soon as I was blinded'.

 

Well, if you are playing a tactical wargame where the goal is to set the players up for failure, that would have worked. For a genre based RPG involving applicable disadvantages that should apply to NPC's (in the case of mega powerful villians, they should especially apply) its not imbecilic or unbelievable.

 

OTOH, it sounds like you also hit her Enraged trigger. Did the heroes luck into it, or did they metagame to find out about it? Or did you let *them* roll their KS: Superhuman World... but not Gravitar?

 

a few choice comemnts from the group hothead did it. They would have been issued regardless of her disadvantage or not. (From what i recall, I dont mention specifically describing an enraged). The heroes who witnessing Gravitars appearance in the city and having time to react (they even had access to a contact with access to the US database on supervillains-- the prior adventure that invlved them stopping the theft of a copy of that database--an adventure that was, naturally, not public and highly classified.

 

So, to sum up:

They had time to go "EEK, Gravitar!", consult KS, contact, review known information. Dear god, we need a plan. < Plan made>.

 

Gravitar, having some fun with a Chicago IHA group for a recent offense to her knows Chicago has individual Metahumans. shes Incredibly powerful comapred to your average superhero (Her KS)..and overconfident to boot. Their is no widely known public team operatin in Chcago to her knoweldge. No, I didnt give her a pre-game 14- roll specifically to void the players plan and lead them to inevitable defeat. I decided it wasn't called for, and would be counter productive to the entire adventures purpose--the group really gettign the most out of teamwork, and a great, very public debut. Losing was a possibility, I had no mandate that Gravitar lose--but even if she had, I had the arrival of Primus, military forces enought o drive her off, and have the heroes recongized for bravely charging in and holding her back till reinforcements arrived.

 

 

Upon arrival, a PC--with a reputation that made sense for why he'd not love the IHA and not be too upset at her trashing them engages her in coversation, debate on matters that apply to her personality (beyond disadvantages, villains have personalities that influence their actions).

 

She gets suprise attacked--shes not sure of the numbers, but the patsy in front of her is not in her league, and the one she's aware of, she knows she can mangle. (the Ks and her overconfidence) -so she doesn't run like a sissy on her first action. she took defensive masures and appropriate powers..she may have even got off the ground in a 'just being pudent' move--but not fleeing. I cant recall if this was her forced grounding--but early in the turn, her enraged went off. The PC in question from my memory wasnt told she has an enraged--I may have metioned a temper, but the insults and cracks were in character, and have been incessant ever since. Even so, blinded and enraged, they could have lost. Just one or two missed attacks, or an extar hit from Gravitar and the combat could have turned. Just a handful of phases where she wasn't nutso or on the defensive, and she could have thinned the ranks. At the end, one member was almost dead, another mega unconscious, and the remainders hurt in one fashion or another. (The Final finishing moves, if botched, would have resulted in the brick and power armor guys being at least stunned if not way out, and Gravitar getting a recovery on 12, a post recovery, and being fully combat operational on 2, not blinded, and the character with flash was out by that time.

 

A big point total and big numbers doesn't mean invincible, and it doesn't mean you've played them 'imbecilic' if a big villain might-gasp-lose!

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

"No, I didnt give her a pre-game 14- roll specifically to void the players plan and lead them to inevitable defeat."

 

I cherry pick this one comment because it highlights the entire fallacy of your argument style, which I am not overly interested in wasting my time micronitpicking to death. When you deliberately take somebody else's argument and exaggerate it out of all sanity and proportion, like that proves something, there's no point in trying to meet you on that level.

 

The odd thing is, in poltiical arguments on NGD, you're usually one of the most level-headed people in them. Watching you default to the cheap straw-man tactics here surprised me.

 

For the record, she doesn't get a 14- roll 'to know their entire plan in advance', she gets a 14- roll to recognize your group on first sight and go 'holy crap, these guys have AP autofire attacks, NND's, ego attacks, and lots of other stuff that my defenses won't stop. I'd better move around a little more than usual'.

 

You RP'ed her like she had Total Overconfidence, not Moderate.

 

Here's how I see things:

 

Moderate Overconfidence doesn't bother to do much advance preparation, or stealth around, or rehearse elaborate contingencies for 'what if I miss?' They just roll on out with a simple plan of 'I'll take the other guy's best punch and then drop-kick his head to Pluto, I'm way tougher than he is.'

 

On the other hand, if they *do* actually start taking damage, they are awake enough to realize that "Hey, I'm actually getting hurt here, I'd better start ducking!" Their Overconfidence lies in going to war with a battle plan of 'Who needs prep time? I'll just pound their faces in', /not/ in going 'I can still win this, I've got part of one lung left!'

 

Strong Overconfidence will do all of the above, *plus* underestimate how wounded they're actually becoming, and how long they can last. I.e., upon starting to actually take noticeable damage, go "I can last this out for a couple more Phases, and by then, they're all toast!" Even if they can't actually last a couple more Phases.

 

Total Overconfidence will absolutely refuse to back down or fall back under any circumsatnces until they're pounded unconscious, unless the other guy is aiming an ICBM at them with a big "NUCLEAR WARHEAD" label painted on the nose cone. Even then, they might still risk it, if they can convince themselves that they got good odds of KO'ing the other guy before he can fire the nuke.

 

Gravitar is, as I remind you yet again, Moderate.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... odd' date=' most Champions groups I'm in *don't* taunt. (Well, Malleable Man in 'Aegis' had a mouth on him like Peter Parker, but even he shut up sometimes.) [/quote']

 

experinces vary. I cant recall one I've been in where the villains weren't subjected to a barrage of abuse that would send mere normals into therapy.

 

OTOH, an Enraged Gravitar, blinded, should have been doing something like TK Grabbing that DCV 0 building over there and trying to smash the entire group to death with it, not just standing around going 'null'.

 

"Gravitar smash!" was going on. The PC's were spread out. The mentalist in particualr stretched the meaning of line of sight a few times). 100 Strength TK will rip down a lot of a building, but it doesnt mean auto-hit with a dropped building on everyone wherever they are spread out around her. She did manage to hurt the team while blinded, not thinking tactically and just lashing out

 

When she was thinking, she was doing a lot better with some of her other powers.

 

Sure she's impressive, but she's built like a poorly skilled munchkin --lots of points poured into some impressive stuff, but still left with easily exploitable areas and weaknesses.

 

Sure, she's a thousand points. She faced off against over 2100 points of PC who had her at a disadvantage. The rematch will be hell. Which is fitting. Gravitar plotting revenge .."One day You will suffer my wrath for this indignity, and I will repay your cowardly ambush with pain and humiliation 1000 fold what you have done to me!" sounds a heck of a lot better than "ok..its a month later, and you can now eat jello and move your right thumb. See what teamwork gets you?"

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

When you deliberately take somebody else's argument and exaggerate it out of all sanity and proportion, like that proves something, there's no point in trying to meet you on that level.

 

Well, you are the one, who, while not present for the game, or knowing what might have went on, weho decided that only imbecilic play could result in Gravitars loss. So when it comes meeting someone on a level, I admit I can't quite reach the 666th level of unknowing assumption that you seem to dwell on.

 

The odd thing is, in poltiical arguments on NGD, you're usually one of the most level-headed people in them. Watching you default to the cheap straw-man tactics here surprised me.

 

Watching you seemingly in shock that skillful play, a plan, and teamwork could overcome a villain wasn't what i was expecting either.

 

For the record, she doesn't get a 14- roll 'to know their entire plan in advance', she gets a 14- roll to recognize your group on first sight and go 'holy crap, these guys have AP autofire attacks, NND's, ego attacks, and lots of other stuff that my defenses won't stop. I'd better move around a little more than usual'.

 

No, she doesn;t get that. If she had KS: Current Heroes, at 14-, maybe. The group had had about 4 sessions together--2 setup, not even as a team. Their first adventure (still not formally a team) pretty much was classified in many respects (the US government doesn't publicize details about how close they were to having their supervillain database stolen). so, there was, to the knowledge of anyone in the world who wasnt studying thise characters in particular, knowledge that they would be operating as aunified team. Even with KS: Superhuman world, it doesn't give you game stats on atacks. Even the information I gave them from the contact with info to the US database was labeled in descriptive, not mechanical terms.

 

And, she didnt see the group. she saw PC 1 until she was gang attacked--and had that 1 second to see some (not all, some) of the team mmebers before she was flashed. In fact, besides distracting PC, she gets a brief glimpse (ie, the suprise action)

 

 

You RP'ed her like she had Total Overconfidence, not Moderate.

 

Just because a disadvnatage doesnt say total means its disregarded except in non combat situations. Moderate Overconfidece is one thing on joe hero at 350 points. Ths is Gravitar rivals Dr. Destroyer in sheer power. Moderate Overconfidence meaning she didnt immediately flee the area (she activated defensive powers, force wall, and did a half move to get off the ground some inches seemed appropriate, especially ince from the opposition she was facing was not a fearsome team with an established reputation but, at the best of her knowledge at the time as determined by the GM, a group of random heroes.

 

 

On the other hand, if they *do* actually start taking damage, they are awake enough to realize that "Hey, I'm actually getting hurt here, I'd better start ducking!" Their Overconfidence lies in going to war with a battle plan of 'Who needs prep time? I'll just pound their faces in', /not/ in going 'I can still win this, I've got part of one lung left!'

 

And you were talking to me about straw men? She'd taken some stun, was flashed, but otherwise was ok--and had an immediate recovery. No lungs were missing. Now, had she NOT been enraged (and all it would have takne was a 12)..she would have probably improved her tactical situation (how a overconfident person withdraws) after a few pahses once the full scale of attacks started coming in. PC's would have had to really persue, many couldn't, and then she starts a rain of destruction from above". Yep, it could have went differently. Gravitar wasn't, to use D&D terms, an Ancient Red Dragon in a 30x30 room. By the time her overconfidence would have surrendurred to prudence (which would have been about phase three)..she was hot under the collar.

 

Some disadvantages suck in combination in certain situations.

 

We can argue what diasadvantages mean all day. As a GM, if a PC tried to tell me his moderate overconfidence allowed him to withdraw from a fight immediately the moment he might be suprised or put at a disadvantage by a small number of much weaker foes, I'd say he neds to find a new disadvantage, because what he is describing isn't much of a problem, and certainly not a 15 point one. What you were mentioning sounded more like "hates to make plans" or "rash and impulsive a fight".

 

Gravitar is, as I remind you yet again, Moderate.

 

And moderate describes what is still a disadvantage. She was impaired by another disadvantage at the point the other one would no longer be in force.

[Starlord]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Well' date=' you are the one, who, while not present for the game, or knowing what might have went on, weho decided that only imbecilic play could result in Gravitars loss. So when it comes meeting someone on a level, I admit I can't quite reach the 666th level of unknowing assumption that you seem to dwell on.[/quote']

 

I agree for the most part and thought you handled the situation well.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... odd' date=' most Champions groups I'm in *don't* taunt. (Well, Malleable Man in 'Aegis' had a mouth on him like Peter Parker, but even he shut up sometimes.)[/quote']

 

Heck, I have trouble seeing how with that Enraged Disad she maintains a secret identity. One "Hey, (female canine) move your (posterior)" in New York traffic and a bad roll is all it would take. Some cabbie and his taxi would be on the Chrystler Building, and the paparrazi would have enough photos to prove everything. (Yes, given her level of wealth and attractiveness, she would have at least some of the tabloid press following her. Not as much a British Royal, but some. It also wouldn't really require the Paparrazi either. Camera phones are sufficiently common some one would catch it on film and someone would make the connection.)

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I suppose it only goes off for *serious* insults. Normal New York cabbie stuff would presumably be beneath her dignity to respond to.

 

Although that would require altering how her Enraged is worded a bit, yes. Perhaps an errata? We could do it right next to Scorpia's NND.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Well' date=' you are the one, who, while not present for the game, or knowing what might have went on, weho decided that only imbecilic play could result in Gravitars loss. So when it comes meeting someone on a level, I admit I can't quite reach the 666th level of unknowing assumption that you seem to dwell on.[/quote']

 

'Unknowing assumption', huh? I assumed that you chumped out Gravitar's brains and/or handed the PCs a lot of lucky breaks to have her hang around in the target zone, blind, for as long as they needed to repeatedly pound on her with a lot of cheesed-out attacks.

 

Which is, amazingly enough, what you described happening -- lots of autofire APs, NNDs, mental attacks, etc, etc., upon a Gravitar who was standing around blinded instead of using even 5 of those INT points. (I mean, you'd think somebody suddenly realizing they were blind in the middle of a major metahuman ambush would, o, Dive for Cover?)

 

Watching you seemingly in shock that skillful play, a plan, and teamwork could overcome a villain wasn't what i was expecting either.

 

Well, I disagree that it's a measure of player brilliance in taking down a villain when the DM has handed them the lucky breaks of 1) the villain has no idea they're coming 2) the villain is so distracted fighting other people that the PCs can set themselves up in duck blinds all around her and she still has no idea 3) the villain will completely lose her head and stand around and play pinata for them even after being Flashed.

 

Seriously, I don't see the tactical genius or the heroic daring in a plan that boils down to 'sneak up behind her while she's busy beating up someone else, then Flash, then continuous rapid fire while she's unable to shoot back'.

 

Any plan that could be nullified by one seconds' worth of halfway intelligent thought on the villain's part ("duhhh, maybe I should stop standing here!") doesn't deserve the monicker brilliant, IMO.

 

Just because a disadvnatage doesnt say total means its disregarded except in non combat situations.

 

And this is nothing like what I said, so again, you are straw-manning outrageously. It's starting to get very, very annoying.

 

A Moderate disadvantage would, as it's supposed to, have only a moderate effect. Standing around and imitating a pinata even after you're coming to the awareness that you are being attacked by things your defenses aren't stopping, that goes beyond 'moderate' on up to 'Bulldozer'.

 

> We can argue what diasadvantages mean all day. As a GM, if a PC tried

> to tell me his moderate overconfidence allowed him to withdraw from a

> fight

 

... temporarily, for the purpose of waiting for a Flash to time out a few Segments later...

 

By your 'logic', Gravitar shouldn't attack Mentalla first when she fights Eurostar -- why should the mighty Gravitar make it such a high priority to attack one insignificant mentalist? She's Overconfident!

 

... yes, she is Overconfident. She also knows that Mentalla is capable of delivering significant damage to her past her defenses, and that therefore she needs to put her down or break LOS to her *fast* or else Gravitar's going to suck pavement. And she has no mental disad requiring her to blind herself to this fact. She was Overconfident in that she showed up to take on the world's foremost metahuman terrorist team alone *at all*, not that she showed up to take them on and then added the additional handicap of leaving herself wide open for freebies.

 

Yet from how *you're* arguing, "Overconfident, Moderate" should be enough to keep Gravitar from exercising *any* amount of common sense in a fight -- which would mean that she'd have to let Mentalla have a free shot, to show how tough she is! (Lord knows she let your PCs have some.)

 

I don't think so. You still haven't said anything that convinces me that you RP'ed Gravitar in any other fashion except a convenient tackling dummy. If I gave my PCs this kind of win over Gravitar, they'd walk out going 'worst session evar!' -- because they'd *know* I was throwing the fight.

 

Anytime I have a villain deliberately stand still and let themselves get pasted instead of using some basic common sense, my players know that either 1) this villain is *supposed* to be as stupid as Ogre 2) there's something very very wrong going on or 3) I'm having a *really* bad night. My campaigns pride themselves on being EOC (Evil Overlord Compliant).

 

This is one of the reasons I don't use Gravitar vs. 350-point PC superteams, but hey, it's not like she's the only villain around.

 

> immediately the moment he might be suprised or put at a

> disadvantage by a small number of much weaker foes, I'd say he neds

> to find a new disadvantage, because what he is describing isn't much

> of a problem,

 

Deliberately eschewing stealth and prep time, never hiring any help, or picking fights with entire governments 'isn't much of a problem'?

 

A Moderate disadvantage isn't supposed to get you killed, which is what her mindset would have done long ago if she were any less godawfully powerful than she is. The behavior I am scripting for Gravitar /would/ be Total Overconfidence, on almost any other character. It's only Moderate for her because she actually is capable of surviving it on most days. Most other people, they wouldn't be.

 

and certainly not a 15 point one. What you were mentioning sounded more like "hates to make plans" or "rash and impulsive a fight".

 

... which are, themselves, 15-point disadvantages, so I don't see your reasoning at all.

 

PS -- KS: Superhuman World allows you to get the same kind of detailed info that KS: Superheroes would, at -1 or -2, so Gravitar still had a fair shot. But you didn't even bother rolling, did you?

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

'Unknowing assumption', huh? I assumed that you chumped out Gravitar's brains and/or handed the PCs a lot of lucky breaks to have her hang around in the target zone, blind, for as long as they needed to repeatedly pound on her with a lot of cheesed-out attacks.

 

Which is, amazingly enough, what you described happening -- lots of autofire APs, NNDs, mental attacks, etc, etc., upon a Gravitar who was standing around blinded instead of using even 5 of those INT points.

 

Chuck, maybe you're just havinmg a bad day, but you really are coming across simialr to a whiny powergamer who just can't believe their favorite NPC/PC could ever be beaten.

 

 

Well, I disagree that it's a measure of player brilliance in taking down a villain when the DM has handed them the lucky breaks of 1) the villain has no idea they're coming 2) the villain is so distracted fighting other people that the PCs can set themselves up in duck blinds all around her and she still has no idea 3) the villain will completely lose her head and stand around and play pinata for them even after being Flashed.

 

Of course the PC's had some advantages. Perhaps you like setting players up for certain defeat scenarios. I gave them a situation where if they used a little bit of planning, they'd have a brief edge over a much more powerful NPC.

 

If they hadn't excercsed teamwork or went in gus a blazing, they were going to be jelly. I gave them a chance, not a silver platter. A few stealth rolls goen bad (or actually, just barely made) and their would have been no suprise.

 

Seriously, I don't see the tactical genius or the heroic daring in a plan that boils down to 'sneak up behind her while she's busy beating up someone else, then Flash, then continuous rapid fire while she's unable to shoot back'.

 

So villains canb play smart, but heroes are supposed to be stupid?

 

Any plan that could be nullified by one seconds' worth of halfway intelligent thought on the villain's part ("duhhh, maybe I should stop standing here!") doesn't deserve the monicker brilliant, IMO.

 

Well, I guess they could have just watched. Or rushed right in and been turned to jelly as she had her way with a group of bigots. Yes, the IHA and its supprters are scum, but even the mutant PC was unhappy with what she was doing an intervened.

 

And this is nothing like what I said, so again, you are straw-manning outrageously. It's starting to get very, very annoying.

 

And you keep ignoring everything I say, and acting like Gravitar is your PC in a wargame. Annoying is an understaement. As for straw man statements..get over it, I'm making examples, and what I think your calling staraw man statements is a excuse for you to pretned you aren't wrong. You seem to assume I suck as a GM, thats fine--just don't feel so shocked If your melodrama, seen from another POV isn't exactly making you look like Mr Fair Play either. Go have a game of advanaced squad leader.

 

A Moderate disadvantage would, as it's supposed to, have only a moderate effect. Standing around and imitating a pinata even after you're coming to the awareness that you are being attacked by things your defenses aren't stopping, that goes beyond 'moderate' on up to 'Bulldozer'.

 

Hmm, she didn't immediately flee a few less powerful opponents who at the time had not much, or any reputation. A hesitation of a couple of her action phases before an enraged stopped rational thought. It was having a moderate effect. Talk to whoever gave her such an easy enraged about how an insult comic with a bullhorn can render Gravitar nuts in a fight about your outrage that dear old Gravitar lost.

 

> We can argue what diasadvantages mean all day. As a GM, if a PC tried

> to tell me his moderate overconfidence allowed him to withdraw from a

> fight

 

... temporarily, for the purpose of waiting for a Flash to time out a few Segments later...

 

"I'm just running away for now..I'm still Overconfident I'll win." Whatever

 

By your 'logic', Gravitar shouldn't attack Mentalla first when she fights Eurostar -- why should the mighty Gravitar make it such a high priority to attack one insignificant mentalist? She's Overconfident!

 

And now your just making up crap because you dont have a leg to stand on. Mentalla has a big reputation, as does her group. Gravitar would have hada far different estimation of her foes, and reaction, if she was facing EuroStar..unless you think a overconfident megavillain would react to a unknown random assortment of a few solo starting heroes in the same way she would react to Eurostar.

 

 

Yet from how *you're* arguing, "Overconfident, Moderate" should be enough to keep Gravitar from exercising *any* amount of common sense in a fight

 

BS. It merely had her not immediately flee. Thats it. What kept her from excercising common sense was her enraged. You've hit the "la-la-la I'm not listening" point now.

 

 

I don't think so. You still haven't said anything that convinces me that you RP'ed Gravitar in any other fashion except a convenient tackling dummy.

 

Well, when somesone refuses to listen, because they have a foregone conclusion in their mind, that simpy dismisses any thign offerred in oppoosition convincing becomes rather difficult.

 

If I gave my PCs this kind of win over Gravitar, they'd walk out going 'worst session evar!' -- because they'd *know* I was throwing the fight.

 

Thats not the first time you've indirectly (or directly) insulted my abilities as a GM. I'd advise you to stop it right now.

 

Anytime I have a villain deliberately stand still and let themselves get pasted

 

Which she didnt do. They did take actiosn to ground her when she was getting mobile.

 

instead of using some basic common sense, my players know that either 1) this villain is *supposed* to be as stupid as Ogre 2) there's something very very wrong going on or 3) I'm having a *really* bad night. My campaigns pride themselves on being EOC (Evil Overlord Compliant).

 

Screw the genre, pound the players. got it. It makes a fight simpe when you can look at the point totals and know your GM is going to make sure you lose. (I've decided to embrace your level of assumptions, so you can see what a fine conversation it makes for).

 

 

A Moderate disadvantage isn't supposed to get you killed,

 

Says who? A basic level invulnerability can get someone killed. The lowest level enraged can put a character in a horrible situation. By that logic, a major disadvantage should almost always result in defeat.

 

 

... which are, themselves, 15-point disadvantages, so I don't see your reasoning at all.

 

Well, from this side of the discussion, it hasn't appeared you have been remotely interested in giving an open mind to any of my reasoning the entire discussion.

 

So, if it makes you feel better, go ahead and imagine I'm a pushover GM who feeds his players a easy fight. Maybe you'll never be eager sit on on one of my games in some hypothetical future situation-at this point, I don't think either of us feels they would be missing much.

 

As for my players..none of them seemed to think they had an easy fight (especially '2 BOD from Death Man'), and they seemed to have an enjoyable challenging game, and thats what important. For others viewing the thread, they can draw their own conclusions..and it still doesn't matter if they support it or not. I'd make the same decisions and reactions now, without hesitation. Many games later, they are still here, still enjoying themselves, and that tells me all I need to know.

[name_tamer]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Heck' date=' I have trouble seeing how with that Enraged Disad she maintains a secret identity. One "Hey, (female canine) move your (posterior)" in New York traffic and a bad roll is all it would take. Some cabbie and his taxi would be on the Chrystler Building, and the paparrazi would have enough photos to prove everything. (Yes, given her level of wealth and attractiveness, she would have at least some of the tabloid press following her. Not as much a British Royal, but some. It also wouldn't really require the Paparrazi either. Camera phones are sufficiently common some one would catch it on film and someone would make the connection.)[/quote']

 

Gravitar never comes anywhere near New York cabbies. She has drivers who take her from place to place in sound-proofed limousines, and bodyguards who clear the way for her.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... odd' date=' most Champions groups I'm in *don't* taunt. (Well, Malleable Man in 'Aegis' had a mouth on him like Peter Parker, but even he shut up sometimes.)[/quote']

 

Seems to me characters who taunt their opponents and wisecrack in combat are pretty common in the source material. How common is "being taunted" based on the points awarded for Gravitar's Enraged?

 

OTOH' date=' an Enraged Gravitar, blinded, should have been doing something like TK Grabbing that DCV 0 building over there.[/quote']

 

ummm...over where? You're blind, remember - and you were likely moving at 30" when you were blinded, so a perfect recollection of relative locations of all objects in the area seems pretty unlikely. Now lashing out blindly and tearing down buildings, throwing cars around, etc. - that seems VERY likely.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Chuck, maybe you're just havinmg a bad day, but you really are coming

> across simialr to a whiny powergamer who just can't believe their favorite

> NPC/PC could ever be beaten.

 

If you can't make an argument without personal attacks, ask yourself why.

 

I can believe that Gravitar can be beaten. I just don't believe that how you described her being beaten qualifies as brilliant play vs. a competent antagonist. It looked more like 'gang beatdown on a villain the DM was having job'.

 

> Of course the PC's had some advantages.

 

'Some' advantages? Short of finding her asleep, unconscious, or dead, I can't think of an advantage they *didn't* have.

 

> Perhaps you like setting players up for certain defeat scenarios.

 

Hardly, and given that I've said 'and this is why I would never use Gravitar as an opponent for PCs of that power level' at least twice already, you're being incredibly rude here in even claiming this. Because, you know, you're simply not listening to a damn thing I say, and repeatedly making claims that I would do or believe or act like such when I have specifically announced the exact opposite.

 

> I gave them a situation where if they used a little bit of planning, they'd

> have a brief edge over a much more powerful NPC.

 

incrdbil, the planning of 'sneak up around her, then everybody attack while she's flat-footed' is planning that any group of players with more than 6 months of d20 exerience can grasp. Adding in the fillip of 'but first we hit her with the Flash Attack' takes only a trivial amount of Champions experience n the bargain.

 

What you seem to regard as some act of brilliance, I consider the minimum basic competence to qualify for the category of 'not a total beginner'. And none of it would have been possible if you hadn't given them the freebie of 'go ahead, set up yourselves up however you want, she has no idea you even exist'.

 

If I had my players just happen to walk across the Evil Overlord while he was standing there with his back turned, and gave them time to not only hold a planning session but then set themselves up in multiple ambush positions all around, they'd feel cheated.

 

Now, if they got this ambush because they'd just spent a session sneaking into his lair, past all his guards and traps and etc., and were mugging the Evil Overlord in his castle bedroom, that's different -- at this point, they feel that they have *earned* this blindside, and they have, because the adventure was all about them defeating a very formidable array of traps, guards, alarms, etc., and doing so with the handicap that they couldn't afford to make the slightest amount of noise, because that would set off the Red Alert. After having done all *that*, it is a satisfying and worthy climax to have the players be able to beat the Evil Overlord like a pinata... they've been sweating blood for hours just to get this far, there is no need to have the last act take longer than 30 seconds. Besides, if you can't catch a master villain off guard when they're in their Innermost Sanctum, when *can* you?

 

If the players just walked across the Evil Overlord while out on the street, on the other hand, and he was *still* standing their choking some poor minion, or kicking a puppy, or burning down an orphanage, or otherwise was so engrossed in his villainy that he completely failed to notice the PCs having a strategy sesson all around him -- and they then proceeded to trash him in a 30-second beatdown -- now *that* is a gimme.

 

A boss villain is not supposed to be used like a wandering monster.

 

Which is, from everything I've heard you say, exactly what you did -- you had the PCs luck into an encounter with Gravitar where the only thing they had to do to sneak up on her was a) think of making some Stealth rolls and make some Stealth rolls. That's it. You haven't mentioned anything else that I can recall.

 

So if they, oh, executed a clever strategy where they baited Gravitar into attacking the IHA office so as to lure her out for an ambush, you haven't told me about that part. Or if they busted out some investigate-fu to be able to get advance warning of Gravitar's plans to attack the IHA, again, I missed that part. Or some other reason for them getting this attack on Gravitar that boiled down to something more fortunate than 'when you arrive, Gravitar is standing there with her back turned, what do you do?'

 

> If they hadn't excercsed teamwork or went in gus a blazing, they were

> going to be jelly. I gave them a chance, not a silver platter. A few stealth

> rolls goen bad (or actually, just barely made) and their would have been no

> suprise.

 

You actually gave Gravitar PER rolls? Here, we paradoxically have you being *more* forgiving to Gravitar... because as you described the setup, I wouldn't have. She wasn't 'out of combat', she was 'already in combat vs. other people' -- and she's Overconfident (Moderate), which I *would* agree means that she's not in the habit of continually checking six, unless she had a specifically compelling reason to that day. (i.e., she knows she's fighting the Legion Of Nuclear Ninja, who are infamous for their Dreaded Atomic Kidney Shiv Technique, which can disembowel you even through a major Force Field if you have your back turned.).

 

And yes, this means my PCs have learned, when fighting supervillains, make sure to *tell me* that you're looking around for the arrival of reinforcements. Because if you don't declare that you're keeping an eye out towards the rear, said reinforcements will be noticed arriving only if they're extremely loud and obvious about it. Fortunately, my PCs know me and therefore know to check-six, hence, the arriving backup ninja often get spotted.

 

> So villains can play smart, but heroes are supposed to be stupid?

 

I don't know who you're arguing with, but he damn sure ain't me.

 

I like smart heroes just as much as you do. I just don't see the smarts in 'let's sneak up, blind her, and then all blaze away'. That's, you know, basic. It's Gaming 101. It's part of the minimum competence level you should have before you should be playing in anything other than a beginner game.

 

You want me to actually respect it as 'clever' or 'brilliant', it's got to get a lot better than that.

 

Of course, this is also why I don't run games unless I have clever, experienced players. I know what my DM'ing style needs to work, and I recruit accordingly.

 

[snip]

> And you keep ignoring everything I say,

 

No. You are ignoring me, in that you continually ascribe me to positions that I have not taken, ideas that I do not hold, and actions that I do not indulge in.

 

I, on the other hand, can't really recall when I've responded to things you haven't actually said.

 

I'm not *agreeing* with you, true. In fact, I'm disagreeing with pretty much every position you've taken, and doing so at length.

 

You want to call that 'ignoring', fine. But you'd be wrong. Unlike you with me, I am doing you the courtesy of actually hearing out, and paying attention to, your entire argument. I'm just not *convinced* by it.

 

Remember, attention != agreement.

 

> and acting like Gravitar is your PC in a wargame.

 

If you consider it 'wargaming' to have her operate at a level above 'dunce', then yes, I suppose it would be a 'wargame'.

 

OTOH, my own philosophy is that the Evil Overlord List is not a list of don'ts, it's a list of dos.

 

> I'm making examples, [bigsnip]

 

You are making examples of things I have never said, and of things I have specifically *denied*, to boot. There is no other word for such behavior besides 'straw man'.

 

> Well, when somesone refuses to listen, because they have a foregone

> conclusion in their mind, that simpy dismisses any thign offerred in

> oppoosition convincing becomes rather difficult.

 

Yes, it does, which is why you should stop now.

 

Seriously, you act like the mere act of me disagreeing with you is proof, prima facie, that I am a closed-minded whiny powergamer, to use just the insults from your most recent post. God forbid that you actually treat your players with the same arrogant contempt, if *they* ever have a disagreement with you on gaming philosophy.

 

I disagree with you because I find your reasoning vastly unconvincing and sourced in no facts. If you want to change that, find a more compelling line of logic... don't just sit around and throw flames about how dunderheaded I am.

 

> Says who?

 

5th Edition Revised. A Moderate disadvantage specifically does *NOT* require irrationally risky responses to a situation -- that level of limitation is reserved for Strong and up. A person with a Moderate Psych Lim only has to allow it to dictate the general pattern and trend of their *normal* behavior... they are still allowed to act with unrestrained common sense to a new or compelling set of circumstances. At worst, they have to make an EGO roll at +5 to do so... and for Gravitar, that means she can't miss it except on an 18.

 

There is a reason I outlined my views on the Overconfidence disad the way I did, and that reason is, I was going straight from the chart on page 337.

 

> A basic level invulnerability can get someone killed. The lowest level

> enraged can put a character in a horrible situation.

 

We are talking about Psych Lims (both 15-point and in general) here, and what 'Moderate', 'Severe', and 'Total Commitment' means in regards to them. Enraged is an entirely separate disad.

 

Having reviewed all the relevant rules and precedents in 5e revised that I know of, I still see no reason to agree that a Moderate Psych Lim should require a character to be 100% incapable of recognizing when it's time to fall back and take a Recovery, prepatory to a triumphant counterattack towards the end of the Turn. If you want to dispute that, please find something other than what you've already argued.

 

> By that logic, a major disadvantage should almost always result in defeat.

 

Moderate: Decides character’s choice of targets and reaction to situations; character may only change actions if he makes an EGO Roll at +5

 

Strong: Character takes irrational actions concerning the situation, may only change actions if he makes an EGO Roll

 

Total: Character becomes totally useless or completely irrational in the situation, and will not change his mind for any reason; EGO Roll at -5 (minimum) required to change actions (if the GM allows such a roll at all)

 

-- 5e revised, page 337

 

These are the rules on severity of Psychological Limitations. Compare them to the chart I wrote for Overconfidence, in my prior post. Pretty much nailed it, didn't I? Moderates react differently to combat (contingency plans? who needs 'em? helpers? helpers is for weaklings!) and overconfidently pick targets ('the entire Paris police department? bring 'em on! Eurostar? Come and get some, wimps!'). But they do *NOT* take it to *irrational* heights (such as, oh, being unable to notice when their STUN counter is rapidly heading towards the basement, or refusing to take a Dive for Cover action even after it's getting obvious that the next volley is going to put them down for the count). That would take 'Strong'. And 'Total', of course, is just plain nuts about it.

 

Gravitar, of course, is Modrate.