By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

The range penalty for 30 hexes is -6. Given that they were already spread out, that means that a couple of them (those who were on the side she went towards) are taking only -4 or so, while all those on the other side are taking -8 or more.

 

If this causes even a *couple* of them to miss her, then she still stays up, and is able to continue to keep earning that Range Penalty, at which point either they all have No Range Penalty attacks or they're all hitting nothing but air.

 

And as soon as her eyesight returns, natch, it's all bets are off time. She doesn't have to keep this up for long.

One of 'em was apparently hitting her with mental illusions. Another had an NND that could pop her. How long was the flash messing with her?

 

And what stops them from reforming another ambush? Starting off with another flash attack?

 

What's she gonna do, fly in and fly out when she gets flashed until she doesn't get flashed anymore? That sounds more like someone replaying a level of a video game than roleplaying.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

*nods*

 

On the other hand, the PCs do not have a free ambush vs. Gravitar here /anyway/ -- not only do they have all the collateral damage to deal with and all those civilians to protect, but they've also got Holocaust to deal with. This means that lengthy prep time is a luxury they won't be enjoying.

 

Plus, 'lovers' spats' are not a routine event for Gravitar, so all this does is change my answer of 'no' to 'very infrequently'.

 

(add) Plus -- Gravitar *and* Holocaust? I would never run this scenario for a typical team of 350-pointers... they were in enough trouble just dealing with *one* of them. With both of them? I might as well send them up against Takofanes. *pain*

You're right. They don't have a free ambush. They have a free ambush with Holocaust! distracting Gravitar.

 

Not so sure Holocaust and Gravitar will kiss and make up to fight the good guys. I don't know why you're assuming that is what would happen.

 

And why do you get to decide what is "routine" for Gravitar anyway? She's not so well defined in every area, nor is the game so rigidly plotted out, that a GM couldn't build up that sort of plot concept. The character description does not suggest that this is entirely atypical. Indeed, the fact that it is a plot seed, one of few, would do nothing but suggest otherwise if it suggested anything at all.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> One of 'em was apparently hitting her with mental illusions.

 

Erm? Thought it was EGO blasts.

 

> Another had an NND that could pop her.

 

That's what Range Penalties are for.

 

> How long was the flash messing with her?

 

He didn't say, but it's very unlikely that it would have lasted past the end of the Turn at /most/, as most starting-level characters I know of tend to top out at 12d6 Flash, and usually somewhat lower.

 

> And what stops them from reforming another ambush? Starting off

> with another flash attack?

 

The fact that their ambush only possible *last* time because she didn't know they were there?

 

> What's she gonna do, fly in and fly out when she gets flashed until

> she doesn't get flashed anymore?

 

There are several ways (Area Effect attack, throwing a really huge chunk of superstructure, etc.) that she can hit Mr. Flash from farther away than he can reliably hit her, and now that she knows he's out there, nothing stops her from leading off with that option.

 

BTW, you do realize that you are now arguing that the team could beat her /again/, straight-up /without/ a surprise advantage, right? That would make them tougher than Eurostar!

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> You're right. They don't have a free ambush. They have a free ambush

> with Holocaust! distracting Gravitar.

 

If Holocaust and Gravitar's fight is doing zero collateral damage, then why are the heroes attacking at all? Let them pound each other flat and then blindside the winner, after he's already used up a lot of STUN and END. Granted, this gets us back into the category of 'the DM might as well be serving them up on a plate', but if I'm the *player*, then this how I react to a free meal. Might not be as fun, but hey, it's there.

 

OTOH, if their fight is tearing up NYC and endangering masses of civilians, the team does not have the luxury of prep time -- they have to go in, and they have to go in *right now*.

 

The latter is why I would never run this scenario for 350-pointers -- they'd be hard-pressed to fight any one of them, let alone both at once.

 

As for them 'kissing and making up' -- the team has to fight them both, or else the one they're ignoring will be shooting at (or at least through) them anyway... if for no other reason than the team is interfering with his efforts to kill her (or her efforts to flatten him).

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> One of 'em was apparently hitting her with mental illusions.

 

Erm? Thought it was EGO blasts.

 

> Another had an NND that could pop her.

 

That's what Range Penalties are for.

 

> How long was the flash messing with her?

 

He didn't say, but it's very unlikely that it would have lasted past the end of the Turn at /most/, as most starting-level characters I know of tend to top out at 12d6 Flash, and usually somewhat lower.

 

> And what stops them from reforming another ambush? Starting off

> with another flash attack?

 

The fact that their ambush only possible *last* time because she didn't know they were there?

 

> What's she gonna do, fly in and fly out when she gets flashed until

> she doesn't get flashed anymore?

 

There are several ways (Area Effect attack, throwing a really huge chunk of superstructure, etc.) that she can hit Mr. Flash from farther away than he can reliably hit her, and now that she knows he's out there, nothing stops her from leading off with that option.

 

BTW, you do realize that you are now arguing that the team could beat her /again/, straight-up /without/ a surprise advantage, right? That would make them tougher than Eurostar!

Nah, I'm saying the team could ambush her again.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> My problem here is that she can not go "full NCM". It takes her four

> phases to reach her full NCM velocity. [snip]

 

In that case, we switch to plan '30 hexes sideways and a little up, with the sideways component being away from the guy who did Knockback earlier'.

 

Plan 'fly through a building' isn't quite appropriate here, even if it would work better.

 

I don't know. If we take out the "bring a building down on myself" option, I think she would probably be better off spending the half phase to reorient/get up. Yes she will only be able to half move, but she would at least be able to make a non-targeting sense roll to get her full DCV against the attacks. That would put her at a 16 DCV, and probably still get a -2 to -4 range mod, while the full move means she is definitely at best DCV 8 with a range mod of -6 to -8. Real kicker is how lucky does she feel that she will get the PER roll on the attacks.

 

The final question is that would the range be enough to help with attacks targetting her between Segement 2 and Segement 4, and the Enrage getting triggered. I don't think that it is quite the slam dunk you think it would have been. I would say even if she opened the range by 30" there is still a good chance that the characters would have pursued her and gotten close enough for her to hear their taunts, become Enraged and go to town on them on Segement 4, which would have been bad if she was still Flashed, which is both possible and probable given the attacks were averaging around 12DCs. (Yes, there would be a base -6 to -8 to her PER roll, but I would assume that the PCs would be shouting, probably reducing the penalty by 2 or 3, which with her PER roll, would give her a chance of hearing them.)

 

I think this does go to that characters with attacks that can exploit the weakness in her build can take her down, which I believe was the situation that was going on here. Incredil admits that he picked her because of the holes in her defenses and that he knew that the PCs had attacks that could get to her. (One big one for this senario is that the Force Wall isn't tough enough, I might seriously think about decreasing the length and increasing the toughness depending on what my campaigns average attack is, so that it is unlikely a single average DC attack would bring it down. Right now, even if she had englobed herself with the Force Wall to stop the NNDs, there is a good chance that one of the characters could have brought it down to let the NNDs get to her.) The other weakness is that she has no exotic defenses at all. I'd certainly could see a justification for her learning how to polarize her Force Field so that it could give her some Sight Flash Def. Also could see using it to trap air inside it to get a limited for of LS: Self Contained Breathing.

 

Come to think of it, given the rest of her write up, I find it odd that Gravitar doesn't have the Power Skill. It just seems so appropriate for her.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> I don't know. If we take out the "bring a building down on myself"

> option, I think she would probably be better off spending the half

> phase to reorient/get up. Yes she will only be able to half move, but

> she would at least be able to make a non-targeting sense roll to get

> her full DCV against the attacks.

 

As I understand the rule, the PER roll must be made vs. each target individually -- at 1/2 Phase per PER roll. There is no way she could find the time to locate all of the incoming fire by sound.

 

[snip]

> I think this does go to that characters with attacks that can exploit the weakness in her build can take her

> down, which I believe was the situation that was going on here. Incredil admits that he picked her because of the

> holes in her defenses and that he knew that the PCs had attacks that could get to her.

 

Which brings us back to 'why not just stuff an apple in her mouth and call her dinner'?

 

(add) I'm not saying 'the DM should pick opposition the party has no way to hurt', but the opposite extreme is also not a good thing, IMO. It's like sending LiveWire (Animated DCU) up against Hydro-Man.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> You're right. They don't have a free ambush. They have a free ambush

> with Holocaust! distracting Gravitar.

 

If Holocaust and Gravitar's fight is doing zero collateral damage, then why are the heroes attacking at all? Let them pound each other flat and then blindside the winner, after he's already used up a lot of STUN and END. Granted, this gets us back into the category of 'the DM might as well be serving them up on a plate', but if I'm the *player*, then this how I react to a free meal. Might not be as fun, but hey, it's there.

 

OTOH, if their fight is tearing up NYC and endangering masses of civilians, the team does not have the luxury of prep time -- they have to go in, and they have to go in *right now*.

 

The latter is why I would never run this scenario for 350-pointers -- they'd be hard-pressed to fight any one of them, let alone both at once.

 

As for them 'kissing and making up' -- the team has to fight them both, or else the one they're ignoring will be shooting at (or at least through) them anyway... if for no other reason than the team is interfering with his efforts to kill her (or her efforts to flatten him).

No.

 

If Gravitar and Holocaust are duking it out, they're really going to be worried about the most dangerous threat to them, which is each other, especially considering that they are angry at each other to begin with.

 

As far as protecting the innocents, they may have already cleared out the closest blocks OR the heroes may just save all those innocent folks first, basically being ignored by Gravitar and Holocaust. Have you ever seen two lovers argue or fight? They often aren't paying much attention to anything else unless someone physically makes them.

 

I can't even believe I have to explain this to you. I have to assume you're just trying to build your best case scenario as the only possible scenario.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> If Gravitar and Holocaust are duking it out, they're really going to be

> worried about the most dangerous threat to them, which is each

> other, especially considering that they are angry at each other to begin

> with.

 

Yes, they start off unaware of the party's presence, but the party has no time to actually *do* anything with this window of opportunity, as the resulting combat must be shut down *immediately* to stop the ongoing and grave threat to civilians.

 

> As far as protecting the innocents, they may have already cleared out

> the closest blocks OR the heroes may just save all those innocent

> folks first, basically being ignored by Gravitar and Holocaust.

 

IOW, most of the grave threat potential in the scenario will be removed with the active cooperation of a kindly DM, before the combat actually starts.

 

Which brings us back, yet again, to the part where we just stuff an apple in their mouths...

 

(add) Not to mention that if no civilians are in danger, the PCs have no reason to fight Gravitar & Holocaust at all -- they can just sit there and eat popcorn and watch the floor show, until one of 'em finally drops. By which point, the other one will be worn down enough that mopping them up, not a challenge at all.

 

> Have you ever seen two lovers argue or fight? They often aren't

> paying much attention to anything else unless someone physically

> makes them.

 

Which brings us back to 'If I didn't start the dance out with the villain(s) completely oblivious to all else around them, you'd be paste.' Which is, yet again, DM freebies.

 

> I can't even believe I have to explain this to you.

 

I can't believe that I'm apparently the only DM on the planet Earth who believes that if players cannot hope to defeat a majorly powerful villain unless I run that villain as blind to all that's going on around them, then that means I should be using less powerful villains. Dumbing down megavillains until they're at enough handicaps for lower-powered characters to blitz them just kinda cheapens the entire point of using them at all, for me.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Nah' date=' I'm saying the team could ambush her again.[/quote']

 

The only reason they ambushed her successfully the *first* time is that she had no idea they were there. That is a surprise advantage they have now lost.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

agh, belated afterthought -- caris, another thing. If she's 30 hexes away from them, her Enraged most likely isn't getting triggered -- that's a bit of a long ways to shout an insult.

 

Granted, it's nothing to base strategy on -- it would take major out-of-game knoweldge for her to know 'hell, I'd better get out of easy speaking distance before he says something to enrage me on segment 4!', but it would be a fortunate happenstance for her, and jibe with something that IMO she should have been doing anyway, even without this reason.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> If Gravitar and Holocaust are duking it out, they're really going to be

> worried about the most dangerous threat to them, which is each

> other, especially considering that they are angry at each other to begin

> with.

 

Yes, they start off unaware of the party's presence, but the party has no time to actually *do* anything with this window of opportunity, as the resulting combat must be shut down *immediately* to stop the ongoing and grave threat to civilians.

 

> As far as protecting the innocents, they may have already cleared out

> the closest blocks OR the heroes may just save all those innocent

> folks first, basically being ignored by Gravitar and Holocaust.

 

IOW, most of the grave threat potential in the scenario will be removed with the active cooperation of a kindly DM, before the combat actually starts.

 

Which brings us back, yet again, to the part where we just stuff an apple in their mouths...

 

> Have you ever seen two lovers argue or fight? They often aren't

> paying much attention to anything else unless someone physically

> makes them.

 

Which brings us back to 'If I didn't start the dance out with the villain(s) completely oblivious to all else around them, you'd be paste.' Which is, yet again, DM freebies.

 

> I can't even believe I have to explain this to you.

 

I can't believe that I'm apparently the only DM on the planet Earth who believes that if players cannot hope to defeat a majorly powerful villain unless I run that villain as blind to all that's going on around them, then that means I should be using less powerful villains.

No, they don't have to shut the fight down immediately. They have to remove the danger to innocents immediately.

 

You should never be allowed to use the words "in other words" because whatever you say afterwards is incongruous with what your interpreting to mean "in other words". C'mon dude, I'm using a published plot seed. And Gravitar has a certain kind of personality that affects her effectiveness. You have a history of ignoring context and just wanting to read off numbers and pretend that this is a video game where you get to play your side of the video screen in the most strategically/tactically sound method possible. That might work for the Warlord but it doesn't work with Gravitar. Period.

 

As far as Gravitar's obliviousness, she doesn't have any special sensory suite that matters. It's not that hard for an enterprising team of superhero hunters to exploit that.

 

Gravitar has built-in personality traits that can be exploited. Which is very genre. She also has built-in combat weaknesses that can be exploited by the right team of 350 point supers.

 

Nothing you have said can change that. The only person here who seems bound and determined to rewrite Gravitar is you - by ignoring her plot seeds and her psych lims and her goals and her methods and by thinking about what you would do if you had that power. And you don't seem to have much respect for numbers (when it comes to being outnumbered) either.

 

Incredibl's plot made sense. The behavior was genre and it was as reasonable as anything anyone else has suggested and it even paralleled a plot seed, only instead of fighting an ex-lover she's fighting the IHA.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

agh' date=' belated afterthought -- caris, another thing. [b']If she's 30 hexes away from them, her Enraged most likely isn't getting triggered -- that's a bit of a long ways to shout an insult[/b].

 

Granted, it's nothing to base strategy on -- it would take major out-of-game knoweldge for her to know 'hell, I'd better get out of easy speaking distance before he says something to enrage me on segment 4!', but it would be a fortunate happenstance for her, and jibe with something that IMO she should have been doing anyway, even without this reason.

 

What makes you think she'll be 30 hexes away from all of them? She was surrounded... and they have movement powers too.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

What makes you think she'll be 30 hexes away from all of them? She was surrounded... and they have movement powers too.

 

I think we actually hashed this out a couple days ago. To briefly recap -- she is Full Moving, they are not. If they are, then they're not attacking, which means she's accomplished her goal for a Phase... i.e., to be shot at less. That assumes they can catch up to her full movement rate in the fisrt place, mind.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> I don't know. If we take out the "bring a building down on myself"

> option, I think she would probably be better off spending the half

> phase to reorient/get up. Yes she will only be able to half move, but

> she would at least be able to make a non-targeting sense roll to get

> her full DCV against the attacks.

 

As I understand the rule, the PER roll must be made vs. each target individually -- at 1/2 Phase per PER roll. There is no way she could find the time to locate all of the incoming fire by sound.

 

Yes, but from what has been described her biggest problem to this point has been the Flash, not the NNDs. The question is can she abort to the PER roll on Segement 3? (Granted if the person with the Flash is also a SPD 6 she is out of luck, but that only makes the Full Move a better option if she goes before that person.) If she can avoid that Flash she has a much better chance of getting her vision back. The way I see it either choice is a gamble for her. I can not say which I would have picked if I had been running. I definitely would have considered the half move option.

 

[snip]

> I think this does go to that characters with attacks that can exploit the weakness in her build can take her

> down, which I believe was the situation that was going on here. Incredil admits that he picked her because of the

> holes in her defenses and that he knew that the PCs had attacks that could get to her.

 

Which brings us back to 'why not just stuff an apple in her mouth and call her dinner'?

 

(add) I'm not saying 'the DM should pick opposition the party has no way to hurt', but the opposite extreme is also not a good thing, IMO. It's like sending LiveWire (Animated DCU) up against Hydro-Man.

 

You will forgive me Chuckg, but you seem to really be stuck on that some how something unfair was going on here. This was not the extreme case you are making it out to be. First of all, she was not being played in a way that was as handicapped as you original thought at first. Even your best option doesn't guarentee that she avoids the Enraged roll that was her downfall (i.e. what kept her from truly opening the range so as to recover her vision, and than coming back and taking out the person with the Flash first).

 

Now you are claiming that the GM cherrypicked her as a cakewalk. Yet none of the NND attacks/Ego Attacks on their own were enough to CON stun her. If she hadn't been blinded the odds were she could probably have taken them out one by one faster than they could have whittled her down. So are you saying that throwing her against the Champions is unfair because: Sapphire could impede her just as much. Witchfire has an Ego Attack. Nighthawk has an NND not vs. Life Support. Defender can start out above her and keep doing knock back to keep her close to the ground. And there is a 74% chance that if Ironclad can reach her on Segement 3 with a half move that her defenses are only 28 against his punch (I'm assuming that he would use a half phase from 12 to attempt a Find Weakness on her.) Not enough for an average attack to CON STUN her but still it would be over a third of her STUN in one shot. If she happens to have been manuvered into a position where she is adjacent to him (extremely unlikely), than there is roughly a 37% chance that her defense against the punch would be 14, which would mean that an averag hit would CON STUN her.

 

Chuckg you are stressing that you want to argue the facts. I do not think the facts are supporting you as much as you would like. Did these characters have more of an edge than the Champions would of had? Sounds like it. I think Witchfire would be hard pressed to teleport her teammates in with her Lesser Witcheries. None of the Champions are really the taunting type either. I just don't think that they had so much of an edge it was a gimme.

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I think we actually hashed this out a couple days ago. To briefly recap -- she is Full Moving' date=' they are not. If they are, then they're not attacking, which means she's accomplished her goal for a Phase... i.e., to be shot at less. That assumes they can catch up to her full movement rate in the fisrt place, mind.[/quote'] I don't know about you, but I've had characters with respectable movement rates at 350 points.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> You will forgive me Chuckg, but you seem to really be stuck on that

> some how something unfair was going on here. This was not the

> extreme case you are making it out to be. First of all, she was not

> being played in a way that was as handicapped as you original thought

> at first.

 

Actually, everything I have heard up to date still makes me believe that Gravitar was not only played underwritten in the brains department, but that the heroes started from an extremely favorable advantage of position that the DM pretty much handed them.

 

[snip]

> Now you are claiming that the GM cherrypicked her as a cakewalk. Yet

> none of the NND attacks/Ego Attacks on their own were enough to

> CON stun her.

 

Which fact would mean something -- if they were all supposed to be facing her one at a time. Which they weren't.

 

> If she hadn't been blinded [snip]

 

But the DM knew they had a nice big Flash attack, so 'if she hadn't been blinded' doesn't really come into play. It's sort of like saying "but if the Martian Manhunter hadn't been hit with that flame blast" when you sent him up against the Fantastic Four. They have a guy on that team called "The Human Torch", so the presence of fire is only to be expected.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

agh, belated afterthought -- caris, another thing. If she's 30 hexes away from them, her Enraged most likely isn't getting triggered -- that's a bit of a long ways to shout an insult.

 

Granted, it's nothing to base strategy on -- it would take major out-of-game knoweldge for her to know 'hell, I'd better get out of easy speaking distance before he says something to enrage me on segment 4!', but it would be a fortunate happenstance for her, and jibe with something that IMO she should have been doing anyway, even without this reason.

 

Uh, Chuck, I did cover that go back and look. I made it a modified perception roll. She would not just get to ignore them. Since I as the GM am mandating the PER roll it is an action that takes no time. Personally, I put the odds at around 75% that she wouldn't hear them, but a lot would depend on their movement. Since the taunting is a Zero-phase action they would be able to get their full move and taunt, which could actually improve the odds to 50%. Of course, that is what I consider most likely without knowing the actual position of the PCs in relation to her when she flies 30" and that she did not pick either the most advantageous or least advantageous distance to move. Of course, the best case scenario that I would consider does not improve her chances of not hearing them beyond the 75%, but does prevent them from reducing the chances any. Alternatively, the worse case could gaurentee that she heard them.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I said 'most likely', not 'will certainly not be triggered'. The PER roll is not a certainty, far from it.

 

Note -- this is agreeing with you.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> You will forgive me Chuckg, but you seem to really be stuck on that

> some how something unfair was going on here. This was not the

> extreme case you are making it out to be. First of all, she was not

> being played in a way that was as handicapped as you original thought

> at first.

 

Actually, everything I have heard up to date still makes me believe that Gravitar was not only played underwritten in the brains department, but that the heroes started from an extremely favorable advantage of position that the DM pretty much handed them.

 

[snip]

> Now you are claiming that the GM cherrypicked her as a cakewalk. Yet

> none of the NND attacks/Ego Attacks on their own were enough to

> CON stun her.

 

Which fact would mean something -- if they were all supposed to be facing her one at a time. Which they weren't.

 

> If she hadn't been blinded [snip]

 

But the DM knew they had a nice big Flash attack, so 'if she hadn't been blinded' doesn't really come into play. It's sort of like saying "but if the Martian Manhunter hadn't been hit with that flame blast" when you sent him up against the Fantastic Four. They have a guy on that team called "The Human Torch", so the presence of fire is only to be expected.

 

OK, so are you now saying that it would be unfair to put Gravitar up against the Champions? Is the fact that any team which has a "nice big flash" is automatically giving them a cakewalk with Gravitar? If so than I know what kind of character Eurostar should be recruiting for a rematch with her.

 

Would you have factored in the characters OCV, and special effect for the Flash?

 

As far as the Flash goes, I don't know what othe powers the character had. While I know that if I were running Sapphire in session and the team was going up against a solo villain, that I would have her always open with an attempt at a Flash. I'd probably spread it for one or two dice just to offset the lack of any combat skill levels on that character sheet. I can not gaurentee that other people would play her that way. As a matter of fact, I know a lot of players that wouldn't really think much about Sapphire's Flash attack at all. Others would either not spread or spread a lot more. Both decisions would be good in some cases and bad in others.

 

I wouldn't really consider the presence of Flash on the character sheet a would have created a cakewalk against Gravitar, unless the PC could generate a significantly better OCV than 10, and/or I suspected them to think that they could get away with spreading the attack by 6 dice.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

A few issues with the theory of Gravitar taking a full move away from the guy who knocked her down.

 

- Gravitar is both blind and has just been knocked **** over teakettle into the ground. I don't see her necessarily having a perfect sense of which direction that attack came from any more.

 

- if Gravitar was knocked that hard into the ground, did she leave a divot? Does she have to plow through a hex or two of ground/paving if she goes sideways? [note: Chuck, you were arguing 50 STR TK down on a target who didn't have to fall created such a divot in another thread - don't tell me 8"+ of knockback won't have a similar effect!]

 

- when she hits a solid object, I would rule she loses some velocity, much like the velocity of knockback lost. She could do a move through, of course, but this would require announcing up front that she is doing so (and taking that added DCV penalty). Adding her STR for damage makes precious little difference, of course, and she now has to shatter the object with 10d6 (for 30" movement - her maximum acceleration in the first phase of movement) plus STR damage.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

OK' date=' so are you now saying that [...']

 

I am saying that if you're going to keep playing this 'Oh, so now you are saying...?' game, there's really no point in us talking further tonight. I had enough aggro with incrdbil when he was busy coming up with new ways to put words in my mouth, so doing the same dance again with you ranks slightly below 'drilling my own teeth with a 3/8ths-inch diamond tip' as regards comfort scale.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I wouldn't really consider the presence of Flash on the character sheet a would have created a cakewalk against Gravitar' date=' unless the PC could generate a significantly better OCV than 10, and/or I suspected them to think that they could get away with spreading the attack by 6 dice.[/quote']

 

If the mere presence of a Flash - not an uncommon attack - makes a cakewalk, then Gravitar isn't fit to go up against many teams at all. To me, however, this is the Gravitar design - she is nigh on unbeatable in straight up combat (54 defenses and huge attacks), but defenseless against esoteric attacks. This is her weakness, and any character or group failing to exploit it is (absent point levels to also carry 18-20d6 attacks and defenses in the 50's) destined for a loss. She is a character who can't be beaten by brute force, but certainly can be defeated.

[caris]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

I said 'most likely', not 'will certainly not be triggered'. The PER roll is not a certainty, far from it.

 

Note -- this is agreeing with you.

 

I'm not quite sure that it falls into "most likely." There are way too many unknown variables at this point for me to speculate. If any of them could have moved to a point within 16" of her the odds of her hearing them improve drastically.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

If the mere presence of a Flash - not an uncommon attack - makes a cakewalk' date=' then Gravitar isn't fit to go up against many teams at all.[/quote']

 

Not just the Flash alone. Not just any one thing... alone.

 

All the things -- both powerset-wise and in situational advantage -- that they had running in *combination*? Yes.

 

All analyses and lines of logic that take the tack 'well Gravitar could have crushed any one of them' are IMO flawed, because they make no allowance for synergy.