By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

* New data from you -- Gravitar had two Phases /before/ they triggered her Enraged. Presumably, since they did not spend all both of those Phases missing her repeatedly, she was already taking damage /before/ her Enraged popped.

 

3 seconds of time. during which she had a recovery, and was at least 90% or higher stun. When she started her action on two. During which time, she had not been stunned, or even close to stunned. She was aware, IIRC, that she had hit and injured a PC Possibly the most worrisome thing to happen to her was on 2 (maybe it was 12, but I think it was 2) when she was hit by an ego drain. Certainly, if her enraged wasn't in effect, she would have done somethign different after 2 than lashing out.

 

 

* I am still unclear on whether they hit her Enraged trigger by accident, or because they knew about it and deliberately played on it.

 

They had no acccess to her write up. The insulting was what the PC (actually a couple) routinely do during most of their fights. However, in the description they were given, her basic personality and temper was described. They have, in other games, used ploys and mind games to lure, decieve, or attempt to induce villains to certain actions. They may have guessed there was an enraged, or a psych limit.

 

 

Your point that 'there is no set definition of what Overconfidence will or will not make a character do' is incorrect -- there actually *is* one, and it's in Champions genre book.

 

I missed the section that detailed Gravitar ambushed by my relatively unknown PC's. What page is that?

 

 

To the best of my knowledge and ability to parse language, they agree much more closely with my interpretations than with yours. If you disagree, please do me the courtesy of explaining that disagreement in more detail than a simple 'Well that's not how *I* do it.'

 

I'll waste time again. Her moderate overconfidence lead her to lash out, and not immediately fleee against opponents who had a temporary advantage--sure, they had blinded her, but no one had really hurt her. Her moderate overconfidence didnt lead to a total commitment to a fight--just influencing her decision that she didnt need to flee just yet.

 

* You still have said nothing that contradicts my point about how many freebie opportunities you gave your PCs... opportunities that most groups fighting Gravitar wouldn't normally get, and opportunities they didn't earn through efforts of their own.

 

How they got those oppoortunities isn't important. Really--big villain is attacking someone else in town and PC's respond..you say this isn't a common adventure? Most groups won't bother to research gravitar if they know she's in town and they may have to stop her?

 

Pretty basic scenario, for a starting group with many new players. Sure, they had a tactical advantage. To say they were given a 'freebie' a set up Gravitar couldnt win is inaccurate. Less teamwork, less successful actions, a different choice of attacks, one lucky roll by Gravitar, and they would have lost.

 

They knew all that they needed to know about Gravitar, /and/ she knew nothing about them,

 

/

and/ she had her back turned when they arrived, /and/ she was wholly occupied with other matters all the while they were busy setting themselves up as they saw fit.

 

Actually, the distracting PC had a nice bit of dialogue and a good conversation with her, first time superhero game, doing some excellent roleplay. I thought it made for a good diversion. again,it was a PC that, to the best of her knowledge was a solo hero--and a mutant rights activist to boot, who had a good reason to be there other than her. Players with desolidification, stealth, or invisibility were getting into place. Others were with the mentalist, to be brought into action on the arranged signal, safely out of sight.

 

So, that is a undeserved free shot?

 

* Your original contention -- the one that prompted my dissent in the first place -- was that 'any group with half a plan or a good mentalist can drop Gravitar'.

 

She's not impossible. difficult, but if PC's (and maybe I'm an optimist, but most teams have at least one good thinker) face Gravitar on a basis other than "as you step out of the shower, Gravitar attacks", they can beat her. A few tweaks, not that many changes, and she'd be vastly more difficult to drop. In was here weak areas that ultimately made me select her for the game--I had another villain in mind, but I wanted a challenge I rated as difficult, not impossible.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> 3 seconds of time. During which she had a recovery, and was at least 90%

> or higher stun. When she started her action on two. During which time, she

> had not been stunned, or even close to stunned. She was aware, IIRC, that

> she had hit and injured a PC Possibly the most worrisome thing to happen to

> her was on 2 (maybe it was 12, but I think it was 2) when she was hit by

> an ego drain. Certainly, if her enraged wasn't in effect, she would have

> done somethign different after 2 than lashing out.

 

She still had at least one action *after* she knew that they were capable of delivering non-trivial amounts of damage past her defenses, and before her Enraged popped. Did I misunderstand?

 

You looked at it as 'Eh, I'm still at 90% STUN.' I'd look at it as 'Ouch, those are actually getting through! My usual tactic of just standing here and letting everything spall off the force field isn't working... they've got ways to get around it, including a mentalist! I'm still pretty healthy so far, but if this keeps up for too much longer, I'm hurtin'!'

 

So at this point, she had a fair chance to go 'Maybe I'm not going to fall right this Phase, but if I keep standing here like a dummy I'm in trouble. I need to find a way to stop eating volley fire down here until after I get my eyesight back.'

 

She still didn't take that chance.

 

> They had no acccess to her write up. The insulting was what the PC

> (actually a couple) routinely do during most of their fights. However, in the

> description they were given, her basic personality and temper was

> described. They have, in other games, used ploys and mind games to lure,

> decieve, or attempt to induce villains to certain actions. They may have

> guessed there was an enraged, or a psych limit.

 

So we don't know if it was clever play or them just lucking into it. *nods*

 

> Because an overconfident character will perceive it as fleeing. "I don't need

> time to rest. I don't need to fall back and catch my breath. You are not

> powerful enough to pose a significant threat to the Mistress of the

> Fundamental Force."

 

That would depend on *HOW* Overconfident they were, which brings us back to the point of dispute re: Moderate vs. Strong vs. Total.

 

My contention is that you were mistakenly forcing a Moderately Overconfident character to operate at the Strong level.

 

[snip]

> How they got those oppoortunities isn't important. Really--big villain is

> attacking someone else in town and PC's respond..you say this isn't a

> common adventure?

 

Actually, I do.

 

You see, most big villains who come into town for a rampage know that 'OK, about ten minutes after I start blowing up the building the local superheroes/PRIMUS contingent/SWAT team/whoever are going to get here'. So they're *not* totally oblivious to arriving people setting up all around them. They're *expecting* their actions to draw a reaction. They may not know exactly *who* is going to show up, but usually, they can guess that *somebody* will.

 

In your example, however, Gravitar seemed entirely oblivious to the idea that showing up in town and going on the rampage would act like a Hero Attractor.

 

Hrm. I may have been too harsh in my 'wouldn't give her a PER roll' line of reasoning earlier. *rubs chin thoughtfully*

 

So yes, while 'adventures where the local heroes show up to respond to a villain on the rampage' are common, 'adventures where the local heroes show up and the villain is Completely Surprised' are *not* common.

 

> Most groups won't bother to research gravitar if they know she's in town

> and they may have to stop her?

 

Wait a minute. This was a crisis response to Gravitar wrecking a building and/or a mob of IHA guys, with the team rolling on out emergency style, and they had time to do *research*? Do they have an uplink computer terminal to the Superhuman Database in their team vehicle? (BTW, I know that it's entirely possible for your next answer to be "yes they did" -- after all, my last superteam did.)

 

[snip]

> She's not impossible. difficult, but if PC's (and maybe I'm an optimist, but

> most teams have at least one good thinker) face Gravitar on a basis other

> than "as you step out of the shower, Gravitar attacks", they can beat her.

 

My last team -- well, actually, both of my last teams, the one I was DM for and the one I was a player on -- had *five* good thinkers on it, including the man who actually gamed out 'Gravitar vs. Eurostar' (JeffreyWKramer).

 

Our consensus vastly differs from yours. Specifically, that consensus is that vs. any typical team of starting characters, any starting circumstances but the most lopsidedly favorable in favor of the heroes means that Gravitar has very low odds of losing.

 

Of course, we also tend to imagine a version of Gravitar as being more in line with the definition of Overconfidence I was using, not the one you were using. (I didn't come up with that definition all by myself, after all.... it's how we've been running our games.)

 

And to answer your implied question from a couple posts back -- yes, in a game I am running, I would be as forgiving with the interpretation of Overconfidence for an Overconfident PC just as I have been here for Gravitar. If I wasn't, I'd have a vast dearth of PCs willing to risk taking that disad.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Well, back to the subject, and perhaps inspire some creative posts .

 

If the Ultimates meet Gravitar as like this….

 

The Ultimates secret hide out.

::knock knock

Binder “Who is it?”

::voice “Umm, its…Jehovas Witness”

Binder: “I’m not falling for that”

:pause

Voice: “Candygram”

Slick: “Candy? Cool!” ::opens door

ARGHHHHHHHH!

 

Yeah, it gets messy. I went back through the CKC versions of the Ultimates (mine are quite a bit upgraded) and an even encounter would just be bad for the Ultimates.

 

Ok. Let’s say, for some reason, the Ultimates have decided to take on Gravitar. Maybe someone’s paid them a boatload of moolah. Or Binder has a plan that requires Gravitar as a power source for a gravity based weapon that, once used in the right spot, would be the super weapon that would make the Ultimates unstoppable. All he would have to do is capture Gravitar, put hook her up to his device, then take the weapon to the optimal point, called the Gravity Spot, and at last Binder would get the recognition he deserved! (If only Slick would stop rolling around laughing every time he abbreviated it the targeting point)….

 

Seriously though, how would how would you have them do it?

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Note -- all of Gravitar's NNDs and other powers that take the limit 'not vs. opponents with gravity/density control powers' do *not* work on Blackstar, as he has both density control and a limited gravity control slot.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

You looked at it as 'Eh, I'm still at 90% STUN.' I'd look at it as 'Ouch, those are actually getting through! My usual tactic of just standing here and letting everything spall off the force field isn't working... they've got ways to get around it, including a mentalist! I'm still pretty healthy so far, but if this keeps up for too much longer, I'm hurtin'!'

 

 

To me, just because some damage (not huge, just some) leaks through doesn't immediately negate the effects of being only 'moderately' overconfident. If it had been at that point close to stunning her, that would have been different.

 

More info for you.

 

She did make contact and hit one of the PC's, so even blinded, she had some evidence (besides what her own ego would be adding to it) that she could strike back at the 'gadflys' annoying her. On 12, the mentalist didn't attack her--on 2, she was hit by an ego drain (actually, it was a transfer now that I recall) after her action. On three, she was rabid. So her awareness time of the mentalist was fairly limited.

 

So at this point, she had a fair chance to go 'Maybe I'm not going to fall right this Phase, but if I keep standing here like a dummy I'm in trouble. I need to find a way to stop eating volley fire down here until after I get my eyesight back.'

 

She still didn't take that chance.

 

Her first action , even though I didnt have her fleeing, was a half move up. She was grounded after that move. (Not all of the Pc's hit immediatly at the same time on 12--initial hit, her reaction, more player hits). A half action was burned getting to her feat on her next action on 2 (no position shift, no breakfall or acrobatics). On 4 she was wacko. Her only chance to put significant disatnce behind her before her enraged kicked in was 12. For a overconfident person (even if only moderate) immediately fleeing though at a disadvantage from (to her knowledge) a few, very inferior opponents immediately upon the instant of attack, even if it was annoying, and the flas was very limiting, didnt seem to me to appropriattley reflect the overconfence Of a being as powerful as Gravitar.

 

.On 4, she would have had sufficient reason and capability to execute a full move action to put some distance, and then keep moving till she could see and react.

 

 

So we don't know if it was clever play or them just lucking into it. *nods*

 

Upon discussion with a player, the response was that they knew she had a temper, They didn't know it was an enraged. The insulting Pc in qiestion especially tailored his insults towards a mutant--so they may have not known about she specifically had an enraged, but they were attempting to use what they knew of her personality to keep her where they wanted her.

 

My contention is that you were mistakenly forcing a Moderately Overconfident character to operate at the Strong level.

 

and here we will disagree.

 

 

In your example, however, Gravitar seemed entirely oblivious to the idea that showing up in town and going on the rampage would act like a Hero Attractor.

 

She wasn't..but she wasn't worried about what was there, or concerned much about what Chcago had to offer in terms of superheroes from current knowledge. SWAT teams...I really doubt Gravitar would care about a SWAT team.

 

In the current game period, her actions and expectations (and that of any other villain who occasioanlly glances at the news) would be wildly different.

 

So yes, while 'adventures where the local heroes show up to respond to a villain on the rampage' are common, 'adventures where the local heroes show up and the villain is Completely Surprised' are *not* common.

 

To give you the information from her perspective:

A local hero had shown up and was talking to her. He had a reputation--which she was aware of, that he was both a mutant, a vocal one, and not very friendly towards the IHA. His lack of hostile action but conversation is not too out of place.

 

Was she supposed to expect a unknown team to be working with this hero?No, what her knoweldge would have prepared her for was PRIMUS (and currently, they were in the prcess of damage control after prior events had damaged the local base and Primus forces. What she rationally would have expected was the piecemeal arrival of various independent superhumans, or at best an arrival of an uncordianted group of individual heroes of lesser power, as there were no superhumans in Chicago near her power level.

 

As for the set up and the attack, she was not blind. I gave her perception rolls, even after the distraction of the PC. She did have an eye out. The players did a good job in a covert approach. She's a lot of things, but not super-perceptive. There was no supersonic boom of characters breaking the sound barrier. The Mentalist teleported the group in some distance away, then the PC's moved into place, using skills, cover, or powers. So Gravitar, at the point of combat, had no reason to believe that the one character she saw was with others--he was, to the best of her knoweldge, independent and there were no signs of the arrival of anyone else. Suddenly, she gets flashed, and some attacks hit her. She is blinded, so gets off the ground, but makes a counter attack towards a source of attack she picked out, and did damage. She was then hit after that, grounded, but got a recovery. Rose to her feet, activated the area TK as a sort of offensive/defensive move. It was an action she knew would inhibit her opponents, act as a form of defense, was easy to do even while blinded and she had no reason to believe the oposition (who far as she knew had given her their best shop) would be able to stop her from leaving on 4 if she really wanted to.

 

Wait a minute. This was a crisis response to Gravitar wrecking a building and/or a mob of IHA guys, with the team rolling on out emergency style, and they had time to do *research*?

 

They did; the damage on the scene and injuries was scaled appropriately. There was roleplayed disagremeent as well between the 'we have to go now' and the 'we have to have a plan are we are mulch and no one will be able to stop her' characters. They did have a acquired contact who aided them with information on Gravitar from the US database (since the PcCs had prevented the theft of the database, he figured the owed them).

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

*looks at the above*

 

Asides from yet another repetition of the debate-o-go-round re: moderately overconfident not being totally stupid, there's one thing in there that really puzzles me...

 

... she was grounded against her will on Segment 12, and yet you still have her not being worried? If I was the world's most powerful gravity controller and somebody turned off my Flight against my will, I'd be wondering "WTF?!?"

 

For that matter, what the heck *did* turn off her Flight? She has 81 active points in that particular EC slot... I seldom find starting characters who pack Dispels, Drains, or Suppresses that hefty, let alone ones that have a flexible enough effect that it doesn't have to be specifically tailored for use against Gravitar beforehand. (Since you have her taking an action immediately on her next Segment, it doesn't sound like she was grounded by being CON Stunned.)

 

There's also something else I disagree with -- on Segment 2, you had her waste half a phase getting off the ground. You even mention this as a pivotal factor in the timing.

 

But under these circumstancse, I'd reason from effect... people with 30" of Flight defined as anti-gravity don't *need* to first assume a standing position before taking off, they're entirely capable of launching themselves from the prone position. I'd let a PC with Flight do it(*), so I'd let Gravitar do it.

 

PS -- if this is how you RP moderate Overconfidence, what do you require the poor people who took it at Strong or Total to do? I mean, it seems like you haven't left any *room* to go up.

 

I agree that Gravitar is vanishingly unlikely to be worried about SWAT teams, but MARS response units with AVLD vs. Power Defense weapons, or PRIMUS reaction squads, or superheroes, tend to be a bit more annoying. As in 'I actually have to pay attention to them, I can't just stand here taking 0 BODY and 0 STUN from their pathetic small arms.'

 

 

(*) Unless the special effect of their flight was boot jets or something else that requires them to be in a specific posture before taking off. "I mentally control gravity", otoh, doesn't.

[Metaphysician]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

. . .I might have missed it being said earlier, but: How powerful *is* this team, pointwise??

[Peregrine]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

chuck, incrdbil, one of the pivotal points in this debate seems to be the relative effects of "'oderate', Strong' and 'Total' Overconfidence.

 

Chuck, could you repost your explanation of how you see the difference, perhaps in terms of how you would see Gravitar reacting in this situation, at her current 'Moderate' Overconfidence, and also if she had it at 'Strong' and at 'Total' (ignoring the question of 'what would she do with the additional points')?

 

incrdbil, could you do the same? Obviously, her reactions as you describe match your understanding of 'Moderate' Overconfidence; could you describe how you would have her react if her Overconfidence were 'Strong' or were 'Total', as above?

 

(Separately, what 350pt team has a group teleporter/mentalist? I'd love to see that write up. I might use it as my next PC...)

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

*looks at the above*

 

Asides from yet another repetition of the debate-o-go-round re: moderately overconfident not being totally stupid, there's one thing in there that really puzzles me...

 

... she was grounded against her will on Segment 12, and yet you still have her not being worried? If I was the world's most powerful gravity controller and somebody turned off my Flight against my will, I'd be wondering "WTF?!?"

 

For that matter, what the heck *did* turn off her Flight? She has 81 active points in that particular EC slot... I seldom find starting characters who pack Dispels, Drains, or Suppresses that hefty, let alone ones that have a flexible enough effect that it doesn't have to be specifically tailored for use against Gravitar beforehand. (Since you have her taking an action immediately on her next Segment, it doesn't sound like she was grounded by being CON Stunned.)

 

There's also something else I disagree with -- on Segment 2, you had her waste half a phase getting off the ground. You even mention this as a pivotal factor in the timing.

 

But under these circumstancse, I'd reason from effect... people with 30" of Flight defined as anti-gravity don't *need* to first assume a standing position before taking off, they're entirely capable of launching themselves from the prone position. I'd let a PC with Flight do it(*), so I'd let Gravitar do it.

 

PS -- if this is how you RP moderate Overconfidence, what do you require the poor people who took it at Strong or Total to do? I mean, it seems like you haven't left any *room* to go up.

 

I agree that Gravitar is vanishingly unlikely to be worried about SWAT teams, but MARS response units with AVLD vs. Power Defense weapons, or PRIMUS reaction squads, or superheroes, tend to be a bit more annoying. As in 'I actually have to pay attention to them, I can't just stand here taking 0 BODY and 0 STUN from their pathetic small arms.'

 

 

(*) Unless the special effect of their flight was boot jets or something else that requires them to be in a specific posture before taking off. "I mentally control gravity", otoh, doesn't.

Good Grief!

 

She's not built with the specific adder that is required for her to not have to use a 1/2 phase if she is knocked out of position. Reason to effect is obvious on that - She apparently can lose her composure for 1/2 a second if someone manages to jostle her.

 

As far as the moderate overconfidence... She has to be strongly or totally overconfident to stick around for more than 3 seconds if she gets knocked to the ground, flashed, and takes a little stun?

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

chuck, incrdbil, one of the pivotal points in this debate seems to be the relative effects of "'oderate', Strong' and 'Total' Overconfidence.

 

Chuck, could you repost your explanation of how you see the difference, perhaps in terms of how you would see Gravitar reacting in this situation, at her current 'Moderate' Overconfidence, and also if she had it at 'Strong' and at 'Total' (ignoring the question of 'what would she do with the additional points')?

 

incrdbil, could you do the same? Obviously, her reactions as you describe match your understanding of 'Moderate' Overconfidence; could you describe how you would have her react if her Overconfidence were 'Strong' or were 'Total', as above?

 

(Separately, what 350pt team has a group teleporter/mentalist? I'd love to see that write up. I might use it as my next PC...)

 

These are some clues:

 

She's got glaring' date=' obvious weaknesses (no flash defense, no life support, and painful Overconfidence). The PC's were about 360 points at that time, 12 DC, 75 point active powers. She has no ego defense, and the tema mentalist went to town (especially after the ego drain power he had hit her). She was then hampered by mental illusions, then haymakered and pushed ego attacks. They had NND's she had no defense for (vs Armor, vs Life support). There were 6 of them; given they planned what to do, got in suprise hits and stuck to plan, it would have been suprising if they didn't win, to be honest. [/quote']

[Agent X]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... (Separately' date=' what 350pt team has a group teleporter/mentalist? I'd love to see that write up. I might use it as my next PC...)[/quote'] Short-range t-port and long-range t-port for group would be two slots in a psionic multipower.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... she was grounded against her will on Segment 12, and yet you still have her not being worried? If I was the world's most powerful gravity controller and somebody turned off my Flight against my will, I'd be wondering "WTF?!?"

 

But under these circumstancse, I'd reason from effect... people with 30" of Flight defined as anti-gravity don't *need* to first assume a standing position before taking off, they're entirely capable of launching themselves from the prone position. I'd let a PC with Flight do it(*), so I'd let Gravitar do it.

 

Her flight wasn't drained. She sufferred knockback from a downward aimed attack. I should have made 'grounded' more clear. Per the rules, a character taking knockback, winding up on the ground must spend a half phase getting to her feet. My PC's abide by these same rules. On 2, she did just that, and turned on a power, the area effect TK. This power, an Area effect tK, is an attack action. Just taking another half move flight would have, presumably, resulted in her hitting the ground again if she was hot by another attack from above or unexpected direction (you cant use flight to brace vs all directions of KB)--unless she stayed on the ground, using the rest of her action to resist knockback--and then only have it not apply to knockback from another direction. As she was not certain where the attack could come from, bracing to resist an attack wasnt the best use of a half action at point. Her hope was the AE TK would be a hindrance, perhaps catching someone trying to hit her from abaove as wel as complicating any close range attacks, keeping opponents outside of the 11 radius of that power.

 

She had no means to detect the attack from above, and had not used a half action to declare to resist knockback with her flight--her half move, going up, was needed just to get decently off the ground. She had moved and made an attack action. Being hit by an attack she couldnt see, I was not going to let her abort to resist knockback, but even if I had, she would have lost her two action, been enraged and petty much in the same situation. She doesnt have massive amounts of kb resistance--she doesnt have any. She was airborne, making the KB modifier only 1d6. As for getting to her feet without taking a half action, she doesn't have position shift on her flight, acrobatics, or breakfall. I have characters--and NPC's as well-- that pay for the appropriate powers or ability. I had a character with position shift modifer on apower. To grant her a free power for effect, while making them pay would not be appropriate, in my judgement. It's certainly something she may develop with experience, but I chose not to suddenly give her the ability others pay for in mid game to avoid a consequence of combat.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

incrdbil, could you do the same? Obviously, her reactions as you describe match your understanding of 'Moderate' Overconfidence; could you describe how you would have her react if her Overconfidence were 'Strong' or were 'Total', as above?

 

If she had not been enraged by segment 3, her moderate Overconfidence would not have been in effect. Even with a Strong modifer, by segment 4, her condition (and the mentalists effect by that phase) would have made me attempt an ego roll for her withdrawl at least. Later in the turn, I probably would have not required it, or figured in a bonus. As for Total, well, thats ones pretty obvious, I think.

[incrdbil]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Short-range t-port and long-range t-port for group would be two slots in a psionic multipower.

 

The mind link made team coordination and communication easy as well, and resulted in no verbal communication between the players for Gravitar to hear.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> She's not built with the specific adder that is required for her to not have

> to use a 1/2 phase if she is knocked out of position.

 

Position Shift? No, she doesn't have it.

 

OTOH, I wasn't having her use her Flight to 'get to her feet as a 0-phase action', I was having her use her Flight to 'launch herself into the air while still flying flat'. When you're the world's most powerful gravity controller, you can levitate your own corpus while it's horizontal as well it's vertical.

 

It might not be the most *dignified* flight posture, but being rat-packed unconscious in the street is even less dignified.

 

Well, I said I would have ruled the same thing for any PC in my game, so, still not giving Gravitar any favoritism here, me.

 

> Reason to effect is obvious on that - She apparently can lose her

> composure for 1/2 a second if someone manages to jostle her.

 

> As far as the moderate overconfidence... She has to be strongly or totally

> overconfident to stick around for more than 3 seconds if she gets knocked

> to the ground, flashed, and takes a little stun?

 

I dunno about you, but if inside the space of three seconds I am blinded *and* pounded into the earth *and* find out the hard way that my opponents have multiple NNDs, Ego Attacks, and other etc. that my defenses are permeable to, then I would start thinking that I was the focal point of a massive ambush that is entirely capable of downing me if I don't get the heck off the spot marked 'X'.

 

To *not* notice such would require Gravitar to have such as 'Oblivious', 'Can't Feel Pain', or 'Too Stupid To Breathe', not 'Moderately Overconfident'.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> Her flight wasn't drained. She sufferred knockback from a downward aimed

> attack. I should have made 'grounded' more clear. [snip]

 

... your party has people capable of delivering Invisible Power Effect (and possibly Indirect, unless the PC was hovering directly above her -- was he?) attacks that do (edit -- math correction, I forgot she was moving straight up) 8 or more inches of Knockback? Because it apparently was strong enough to pound her all the way back down after she took a Half Move, which is 8" in the straight up direction.

 

(add) Assuming that she rolled a 1 on her 1d6, that's still 9 BODY of KB. So either he has an Invisible Power Effect (or Indirect) 9d6 attack. And that's with maximum dice luck. She rolled average on her 1d6, he's packin' 12d6 normal of IPE or Indirect.

 

It's not impossible to find one on average starting characters, but it is unusual. And by unusual, I mean I can't ever remember seeing one on a player character in any game I've played in the past ten years... ecxept for Starguard, who only has one because it's a potential effect of her literally Cosmic VPP.

 

OK, so far, we have your group having a group teleporter, a guy with a hellacious invisible (or indirect) knockback effect, autofire AP attacks, NNDs, and mental attacks. *And* they had the opportunity to set up a perfect *three-dimensional* ambush around Gravitar, not only flanking her on all sides, but also owning the sky!

 

... this is not, in my experience, the typical party of 350-point characters.

 

This entire argument started when you made the statement that an average group with half a plan and a good mentalist could down Gravitar, and you offered your own experiences as proof. The problem is, the more and more detail you provide, the less I disagree with that thesis -- as what you're describing her eis not an average party of starting characters by any stretch.

 

I mean, good God, it sounds like they were as artfully designed to trash characters like Gravitar as Gravitar was artfully designed to crush teams like Eurostar.

 

So your original thesis re: the ease of defeating Gravitar, I still disagree with -- your battle was a highly atypical set of circumstances. If you inserted the phrases '... whose collective powersets might as well have been specifically custom-tailored for trashing Gravitar, and who had an enormous advantage of position re: setup...' into your prior statement, it would be much more accurate.

 

And that's even *if* I set the Overconfidence argument entirely aside, which (points up, and see below), I'm not.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

OK, as requested, here's a recap of my own views of the Overconfidence disad, with chart and rules cites.

 

Moderate Overconfidence doesn't bother to do much advance preparation, or stealth around, or rehearse elaborate contingencies for 'what if I miss?' They just roll on out with a simple plan of 'I'll take the other guy's best punch and then drop-kick his head to Pluto, I'm way tougher than he is.'

 

On the other hand, if they *do* actually start taking damage, they are awake enough to realize that "Hey, I'm actually getting hurt here, I'd better start ducking!" Their Overconfidence lies in going to war with a battle plan of 'Who needs prep time? I'll just pound their faces in', /not/ in going 'I can still win this, I've got part of one lung left!'

 

Strong Overconfidence will do all of the above, *plus* underestimate how wounded they're actually becoming, and how long they can last. I.e., upon starting to actually take noticeable damage, go "I can last this out for a couple more Phases, and by then, they're all toast!" Even if they can't actually last a couple more Phases.

 

Total Overconfidence will absolutely refuse to back down or fall back under any circumsatnces until they're pounded unconscious, unless the other guy is aiming an ICBM at them with a big "NUCLEAR WARHEAD" label painted on the nose cone. Even then, they might still risk it, if they can convince themselves that they got good odds of KO'ing the other guy before he can fire the nuke.

 

As to answering the specific question 'so, how does Gravitar's Overconfidence disad hamper her, if she's so powerful?', I will recap my prior post on that topic so...

 

> How does "Overconfidence" rate a "Very Common" on someone like Gravitar

> anyways? How frequently will she be in a situation when acting in such a

> fashion will get her in serious trouble?

 

Given that it's her Overconfidence disad that prevents her from hiring minions, building up a villainous organization, forming the Injustice Gang, or buying technologically-based Mental Defense / Power Defense / Flash Defense to cover the holes in her powers...

 

... it is not a snarky answer to say "all the time". Which is 'Very Common', natch.

 

Her Overconfidence is why she is doomed to never have any hope of actually succeeding in her goals of world conquest, because her methods of 'pick lots of solo fights' will never actually put her into the position of Queen of the World. To conquer the world takes more than just being a mondo powerful super, unless by 'mondo powerful', you mean 'The Infinite Man'. It takes large-scale organization, it takes an army, it takes the ability to put into motion grand events and have them keep grand eventing even while you're asleep in the Royal Bedroom.

 

And yet, until she buys off this psych lim, she won't ever admit to herself that she needs to change her plans and re-evaluate her potential a little more realistically. Even if -- or perhaps *especially* if -- she keeps winning those fights.

 

Her disad doesn't have to get her killed, or even beat up a lot. (Especially since it's only Moderate, not Strong or Total). It *does* do a very consistent job of having her self-sabotage her long-term goals, and as such, it's worth the 15 points, IMO.

 

And last, a quote from 5e Revised about what the different levels of severity of Psychological Limitations should mean:

 

Moderate: Decides character’s choice of targets and reaction to situations; character may only change actions if he makes an EGO Roll at +5

 

Strong: Character takes irrational actions concerning the situation, may only change actions if he makes an EGO Roll

 

Total: Character becomes totally useless or completely irrational in the situation, and will not change his mind for any reason; EGO Roll at -5 (minimum) required to change actions (if the GM allows such a roll at all)

 

-- 5e revised, page 337

 

Hope this helps.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Position Shift? No, she doesn't have it.

 

OTOH, I wasn't having her use her Flight to 'get to her feet as a 0-phase action', I was having her use her Flight to 'launch herself into the air while still flying flat'. When you're the world's most powerful gravity controller, you can levitate your own corpus while it's horizontal as well it's vertical.

 

It might not be the most *dignified* flight posture, but being rat-packed unconscious in the street is even less dignified.

 

I'm not sure how others would rule in this case. I would allow Gravitar to fly without spending 1/2 phase to recover from being knocked back/prone. However, she would still be considered to be prone (just as a hero knocked back who chooses not to spend a half phase standing up would be) until she uses a half phase to regain her bearings. To rule otherwise would be to grant Position Shift to many flyers solely on the basis of SFX.

 

So I believe Gravitar could have followed Chuckg's tactical approach, but it would have meant being at 1/2 DCV. So now she's 8" in the air ( -2 range modifier) and at half DCV. I think she'd likely be better off standing up and staying on the ground.

 

She still had at least one action *after* she knew that they were capable of delivering non-trivial amounts of damage past her defenses, and before her Enraged popped. Did I misunderstand?

 

You looked at it as 'Eh, I'm still at 90% STUN.' I'd look at it as 'Ouch, those are actually getting through! My usual tactic of just standing here and letting everything spall off the force field isn't working... they've got ways to get around it, including a mentalist! I'm still pretty healthy so far, but if this keeps up for too much longer, I'm hurtin'!'

 

So at this point, she had a fair chance to go 'Maybe I'm not going to fall right this Phase, but if I keep standing here like a dummy I'm in trouble. I need to find a way to stop eating volley fire down here until after I get my eyesight back.'

 

She still didn't take that chance.

 

Basically, you;re syaing that she is only Overconfident so long as her opponents have demonstrated no ability whatsoever to inflict any meaningful STUN to her. I really don't think Superman is demonstrating Overconfidence when he stands in the path of an oncoming bullet. He KNOWS it cannot harm him. To be a disadvantage, Overconfidence must, in my little world, result in the character actually OVERESTIMATING their ability to emerge victorious. I don't know of too many characters, overconfident or otherwise, who would [choose either]:

 

(a) make a tactical withdrawal

[or]

( flee the scene

 

after their opposition has taken their best shots and left them at 90% of their STUN. I echo Peregrine's request - please share with us how Gravitar's overconfidence, in your view, would impact her decision making process. So far,. all you've said is that it prevents her frpom spending character points she doesn't have to buy abilities to offset her weaknesses, to become a powergamer's dream character.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Basically' date=' you're saying that she is only Overconfident so long as her opponents have demonstrated no ability whatsoever to inflict any meaningful STUN to her.[/quote']

 

Yup. That's the difference between Moderate and Strong (or total) as near as I can tell. Moderate starts out every fight thinking they can win (see long multi-paragraph explanation above of how her Moderate Overconfidence is still happening frequently enough to qualify as a disadvantage, even *with* this), but Moderately Overconfident people are still capable of going 'OK, I need to make an exception to the rule today...' when the tide starts visibly turning.

 

Strong and Total people, OTOH, can't learn except via being pounded flat, even *after* they're starting to get hurt.

 

I really don't think Superman is demonstrating Overconfidence when he stands in the path of an oncoming bullet. He KNOWS it cannot harm him.

 

Yes, but if the first bullet lands and Superman then finds out it's a magic or Kryptonite bullet, he damn sure is going to start doing his best to duck the rest of the incoming barrage.

 

Even if the first bullet only grazed his cheek (i.e. -- did only minor STUN and 1 pip BODY.) Even if he's still at over 90% STUN. The fact that the thing penetrated his defenses *at all* is enough to tell him "If enough of those hit me, I'm swiss cheese." And the fact that he's surrounded by lots of shooters is enough to tell him "And if I don't get away from here soon, enough of them are *going* to hit me."

 

As for not falling back at 90% STUN -- friend, I'll fall back and find cover at 100% STUN(1), if I happen to spot that the opposition is packing my particular kryptonite. Then I'll circle around and try flanking my flankers. The only exceptions are if there's no time to do this (i.e. -- the hostage is going to die right then, the doomsday clock is at T minus 3 seconds, etc, etc.) -- but that's heroic motivations. Gravitar just wants to a) survive and win. Villains have the advantage of never being required to Abort To Noble Sacrifice.

 

You can call this 'wargaming' if you want. I call it 'few rational people deliberately stand out and expose themselves to incoming barrages unless they can be reasonably confident it won't hurt them'.

 

 

 

(1) Footnote -- perhaps the only character I had who broke this rule in the past 5 years was Starguard -- and that's because I had put 'Novice Hero' down as one of her Psych Lims, as per Champions genre book. When she bought that off, it because she'd started to learn 'this is what my defenses can take, this is what they can't. This is what I fly straight up to without attempting to cover myself, and this is what I step behind Horus-Re and let him take the blast from.'

 

Of course, this is when I run flying energy blasters. Bricks need a different philosophy, because closing and pounding is their job. But even Dr. Pain will try advancing *behind cover* if he happens to notice that the VIPER Five-Team he's advancing towards has a 'SuperMauler II Heavy Cannon Of Doom'.

 

Then again, when you're the brick, 'behind cover' can mean 'picking up a nearby truck and holding it front of you as you charge'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Yup. That's the difference between Moderate and Strong (or total) as near as I can tell. Moderate starts out every fight thinking they can win (see long multi-paragraph explanation above of how her Moderate Overconfidence is still happening frequently enough to qualify as a disadvantage' date=' even *with* this), but Moderately Overconfident people are still capable of going 'OK, I need to make an exception to the rule today...' when the tide starts visibly turning. [/quote']

 

The real issue here comes down to one's definition of how much damage is "taking real damage". "I've taken your best and I've still got 90% of my STUN" to me means "I can last well into the second turn from now - enough time to take down the ones who can hurt me - and after that, the others can sufer as well."

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

The real issue here comes down to one's definition of how much damage is "taking real damage".

 

That definition changes when you are a) blinded and completely surrounded. At this point, *ANY* damage past your defenses is "real damage" -- if you're stuck in an eight-way kill sack and unable to even see your opponents, then either:

 

1) you're totally invulnerable

2) you're less than one Turn away from lights-out

 

*or*

 

3) you are getting the heck out of the kill zone

 

And note, this is exactly what happened in incrdrbil's game -- she wasn't #1, and she didn't do #3, and hence she ended up deep in #2. (pun intended)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

That definition changes when you are a) blinded and completely surrounded. At this point' date=' *ANY* damage past your defenses is "real damage" -- if you're stuck in an eight-way kill sack and unable to even see your opponents[/quote']

 

If I had a powerful AE atack, my fear of blindness could go down quite a bit. That 50 STR TK, centered on my hex, could change a lot if those "surrounding characters" are within its radius. And overcojnfidence would lead me to believe that kind of power would overwhelm my targets (unless someone has demonstrated the ability to override that TK before).

 

If she does decide to get out of Dodge, full flight up (combat) is 15", I believe. -4 from Range Modifier at least offsets some lost DCV (and frustrates non-flying HTH combatants, but I don't believe these were the big threat). Going non-combat has some acceleration issues, IIRC, but may be viable in this case given her DCV's already crippled by the flash attack (does she actually suffer any more by going to 0 DCV for going noncombat?). Of course, now if she wants to come back, she either comes back noncombat ("Nice DCV there, babe - have another flash!) or flees the scene entirely (in which case she'd best avoid the newscasts for the next day or two if she wants to avoid that Enraged going off...).

 

Actually, that's probably the best way to call Gravitar out - taunt her by press. Two drawbacks - you need money to buy the advertising blitz, and the cost in property damage when she does go enraged will be significant. Probably a decent way for Eurostar (I know, wrong thread) to call her out, and get third parties to take her down so they're at no risk.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

> If I had a powerful AE atack, my fear of blindness could go down quite a bit.

> That 50 STR TK, centered on my hex, could change a lot if those "surrounding

> characters" are within its radius.

 

Only if I know that my targets are actually in the area of effect -- and she's blind, remember? As incrdrbil (agh, spelling!) described the fight, Gravitar had no idea where her opponents were from up down or Tuesday.

 

And it's spelled 'overconfident', not 'stupid'. Sure, I might feel confident that even temporarily blinded, I could smash everyone around me into the dirt and hold them there until the bright spots in front of my eyes went away... but only if I know that they're actually standing where I'm going to be aiming!

 

Being unable to see in the middle of a firefight is *very* un-fun. I think you underestimate how much apprehension factor there lies in being temporarily helpless to know where the enemy is while volley fire is coming in straight at you. It's a lot less worrisome for heroes, because they at least know that all their teammates will be covering for them while they're out.

 

Gravitar fights alone.

[pendelfield]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

... your party has people capable of delivering Invisible Power Effect (and possibly Indirect, unless the PC was hovering directly above her -- was he?) attacks that do (edit -- math correction, I forgot she was moving straight up) 8 or more inches of Knockback? Because it apparently was strong enough to pound her all the way back down after she took a Half Move, which is 8" in the straight up direction.

 

(add) Assuming that she rolled a 1 on her 1d6, that's still 9 BODY of KB. So either he has an Invisible Power Effect (or Indirect) 9d6 attack. And that's with maximum dice luck. She rolled average on her 1d6, he's packin' 12d6 normal of IPE or Indirect.

 

The attacking character didn't neccesarilly have to be flying or have an indirect attack to be above her, if I remember the post right it was in Chicago. The character could easily have been on the roof of a building above her or a building near by and still do knocback in a downward direction. So with her flying a 4 or less was enough to put her back on the ground.

 

Unless of course I missed something.

[Chuckg]

Re: By request: Gravitar vs. Ultimates

 

Well, if she Half Moved straight up, she'd be 8" off the ground, so a 4 wouldn't do it.

 

OTOH, I just realized that I missed something too -- if she was already Flashed at this point, then the attack wouldn't need Indirect or IPE to have her be unable to see it coming. At which point she simply took a simple 9-12d6 EB from a top angle.

 

With the exception of invalidating one point of detail (the team had one less 'unusual' power than I thought they had), however, this omission does not materially damage my argument.