Question about 350pt campaign limits...

[Force]

Frankly, what kind of limits/ratios do you play in?

 

DC 10, 12, 15 or higher?

 

Defense ratios of 1.5, 2, 2.5 or higher when compared to dc's?

 

Active point limits of 60, 75, 90 or higher?

 

Minimum number of points in skills?

 

CV Limits? OCV/DCV limits?

 

I searched and havent found anything recent on this subject...

[MechaGM]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Well, it's varied for me.

 

The last 350 pt. game I *played* in was a 60 AP cap game... I don't think there were specific caps on CVs/Skill levels or defenses, but there did seem to be a sort of informal limitations. (ie. the GM did tone some people down)

 

In the last 350 game I ran, I actually had no actual caps on anything... it worked pretty well, though in future I plan on disallowing VPPs in such a campaign. The general rule was that if I thought a build was abusive, I'd disallow it, and VPPs are *much* harder to judge in that way.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

In the game I run (on hiatus, since we completed the first arc, and it tooks months, and there is someone else who I was giving a break as a GM who stepped back in....)...

 

Cap of 60 AP for damage, not counting reduced endurance, unless it's a power pool build (there was one, now two, of those - I figure they have all the help they deserve).

 

Defenses started off at 20/20, or 15/15 with damage reduction, although that was later decided to be perhaps too harsh for the "Brick", who was rebuilt with 26/26 and an option on 35/35 (who turned out perhaps a bit too tough - then again, he did get KO'd in each battle against the villains [although the move through with no net knockback rolled was painful, given he was rolling about 17 dice, I think]), and only in the last battle did anyone else go down.

 

I didn't count Force Walls towards that... perhaps I should have.

 

 

So my defense ratio was a bit less than 2.

 

 

Of course, I was aiming for them to feel vulnerable - godlike power, but the world is still a threat. (I don't think I really succeeded in getting that across).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Well, the last campaign I was in was (which is currently on hiatus):

 

Active Point cap of 75.

 

Soft DC cap of 12. You could go over it with certain maneuvers and outside buffs.

 

Defense max 2.5

 

Typical speed was 4. Thoretically, we were allowed to have as high as an 8, but no one went above 6 (no true speedster in the group).

 

No hard limit on skills, but seeing an 18- or more is fairly rare.

 

I'm embarased to admit I don't remember what my GM set the CV limit at for that game. I think most of us averaged between 10 and 12.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Hmmm.

 

I usually do a 12 DC cap, with some characters having the limited ability to exceed it while suffering drawbacks (for example, a 60 STR brick with +20 STR with a x10 END cost for emergencies). No real 'active point' cap beyond keeping it reasonable.

 

Defenses usually range from 18 to 30, depending on character type (martial artists are lower, bricks are higher, etc.). Broad-based Damage Reduction affects this, of course. Hardening doesn't count against the defense points.

 

SPD range is usually 4-7 (Usually 5 or 6), DEX range 20-33.

 

No significant limits on skills other than what the player is willing to spend on them.

 

No CV limits because, in most cases, you start to get diminishing returns past a certain point. For example, if the typical villain DCV is 9, and you have an OCV 9, that's a 65 percent (or so) chance to hit. OCV 10 makes it 75 percent, but the amount you gain becomes less with every additional level due to the 3d6 method of rolling and its bell curve.

[Hermit]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I tend to stick by the guidelines, except my standard for defenses is a bit higher than recommended for 5th Ed.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

We use a guideline of (SPD + DC) <= 20 in our campaign, but it's not written in stone. (Only one character technically violates this limit; and that's only theoretically since he has a VPP. He's never exceeded it in actual play.)

 

Otherwise, we just ask that no character step on another character's schtick. Nobody else's character should be nearly as tough or hit as hard as the brick. The character with the highest SPD and CV also has the smallest attack (only 2/3 as much as the brick's). Other characters should fall between these extremes. It seems to work out fine with our group, especially since all character changes and XP expenditures must be vetted through at least a couple of the GMs (we have 5 GMs out of 8 players and we're not afraid to say "No"). What we most watch is game balance; we won't allow any Powers or abilities which would make the rest of the team superfluous or feel unimportant. We're all crucial.

 

As for Skills, most of the PC's Skills fal into the 13- to 15- range. We have several 16- and 17- KSs; and one PC with an Acrobatics 22-. And if you don't have any non-combat Skills, there are times you'll be bored.

[Archon]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I tend to stick by the guidelines' date=' except my standard for defenses is a bit higher than recommended for 5th Ed.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I like to have defenses high enough to at least not get stunned from an average hit. My big complaint about Galactic Champions is the ridulously low defenses on most of the characters.

 

Archon

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Thanks for the replies!!!

 

I remember some of the responses from previous threads and will reply to each one individually.

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

In the game I run (on hiatus, since we completed the first arc, and it tooks months, and there is someone else who I was giving a break as a GM who stepped back in....)...

 

Cap of 60 AP for damage, not counting reduced endurance, unless it's a power pool build (there was one, now two, of those - I figure they have all the help they deserve).

 

Defenses started off at 20/20, or 15/15 with damage reduction, although that was later decided to be perhaps too harsh for the "Brick", who was rebuilt with 26/26 and an option on 35/35 (who turned out perhaps a bit too tough - then again, he did get KO'd in each battle against the villains [although the move through with no net knockback rolled was painful, given he was rolling about 17 dice, I think]), and only in the last battle did anyone else go down.

 

I didn't count Force Walls towards that... perhaps I should have.

 

 

So my defense ratio was a bit less than 2.

 

 

Of course, I was aiming for them to feel vulnerable - godlike power, but the world is still a threat. (I don't think I really succeeded in getting that across).

 

 

So judging from this thread the recommended def provided in 5th definitely seems a bit low. How did the slightly less than 2xdc in def work out in game play? And did you have a minimum amount of points that had to be spent on non-combat skills?

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Well, it's varied for me.

 

The last 350 pt. game I *played* in was a 60 AP cap game... I don't think there were specific caps on CVs/Skill levels or defenses, but there did seem to be a sort of informal limitations. (ie. the GM did tone some people down)

 

In the last 350 game I ran, I actually had no actual caps on anything... it worked pretty well, though in future I plan on disallowing VPPs in such a campaign. The general rule was that if I thought a build was abusive, I'd disallow it, and VPPs are *much* harder to judge in that way.

 

60 active points include things like reduce end or was it a 12dc?

 

Also, after experience, how 'fast' were characters allowed to exceed the starting limits?

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Well, the last campaign I was in was (which is currently on hiatus):

 

Active Point cap of 75.

 

Soft DC cap of 12. You could go over it with certain maneuvers and outside buffs.

 

Defense max 2.5

 

Typical speed was 4. Thoretically, we were allowed to have as high as an 8, but no one went above 6 (no true speedster in the group).

 

No hard limit on skills, but seeing an 18- or more is fairly rare.

 

I'm embarased to admit I don't remember what my GM set the CV limit at for that game. I think most of us averaged between 10 and 12.

 

This seems fairly standard in what I would like to see in a campaign. With the 2.5xdc defense how did the characters fair? And did that include hardening and other options?

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Hmmm.

 

I usually do a 12 DC cap, with some characters having the limited ability to exceed it while suffering drawbacks (for example, a 60 STR brick with +20 STR with a x10 END cost for emergencies). No real 'active point' cap beyond keeping it reasonable.

 

Defenses usually range from 18 to 30, depending on character type (martial artists are lower, bricks are higher, etc.). Broad-based Damage Reduction affects this, of course. Hardening doesn't count against the defense points.

 

SPD range is usually 4-7 (Usually 5 or 6), DEX range 20-33.

 

No significant limits on skills other than what the player is willing to spend on them.

 

No CV limits because, in most cases, you start to get diminishing returns past a certain point. For example, if the typical villain DCV is 9, and you have an OCV 9, that's a 65 percent (or so) chance to hit. OCV 10 makes it 75 percent, but the amount you gain becomes less with every additional level due to the 3d6 method of rolling and its bell curve.

 

 

Thanks for the reply and the tip on the diminishing returns on ocv. I will have to remember that. I suppose this applies to dcv as well. Never thought of it that way. Seems to be a typical starting campaign level. How did the games work out for agent level type foes?

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I tend to stick by the guidelines' date=' except my standard for defenses is a bit higher than recommended for 5th Ed.[/quote']

 

I notice the def recommended in 5th are quite pathetic. It's part of the reason for my wanting to start this thread.

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

We use a guideline of (SPD + DC) <= 20 in our campaign' date=' but it's not written in stone. (Only one character technically violates this limit; and that's only theoretically since he has a VPP. He's never exceeded it in actual play.)

 

This is one formula I was specifically looking for! I knew someone had mentioned this [spd+dc] combo and I thought it was an excellent suggestion.

 

As for Skills, most of the PC's Skills fal into the 13- to 15- range. We have several 16- and 17- KSs; and one PC with an Acrobatics 22-. And if you don't have any non-combat Skills, there are times you'll be bored.

 

But did you have a minimum number of points that had to be spent on non-combat skills?

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

Yeah, I like to have defenses high enough to at least not get stunned from an average hit. My big complaint about Galactic Champions is the ridulously low defenses on most of the characters.

 

Archon

 

No kidding. If you play with 5th ed 250pt campaign 'limits/suggestions', the recommended dc range will con stun any 30 con or less character and that definitley sucks.

[Zed-F]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I usually expect 250 point characters to have a bit more defense than the guidelines in the book, but the 1.5 x DC guideline for DEF is not bad. It tends to encourage quicker combats and higher CON scores; you tend to rely more on CON and STUN than on PD & ED. This incidentally tends to help when dealing with special attacks that bypass PD/ED, too, so characters tend to be more resilient in surprising ways at times.

 

Definitely combat works out a bit differently than in previous editions, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Chuckg]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

We use a guideline of (SPD + DC) <= 20 in our campaign, but it's not written in stone. (Only one character technically violates this limit; and that's only theoretically since he has a VPP. He's never exceeded it in actual play.)

 

Otherwise, we just ask that no character step on another character's schtick. Nobody else's character should be nearly as tough or hit as hard as the brick. The character with the highest SPD and CV also has the smallest attack (only 2/3 as much as the brick's). Other characters should fall between these extremes. It seems to work out fine with our group, especially since all character changes and XP expenditures must be vetted through at least a couple of the GMs (we have 5 GMs out of 8 players and we're not afraid to say "No"). What we most watch is game balance; we won't allow any Powers or abilities which would make the rest of the team superfluous or feel unimportant. We're all crucial.

 

As for Skills, most of the PC's Skills fal into the 13- to 15- range. We have several 16- and 17- KSs; and one PC with an Acrobatics 22-. And if you don't have any non-combat Skills, there are times you'll be bored.

 

I have agreed with all of this for the longest time, and will most likely (read: I'll bring it up at the players' meeting) steal it wholesale for the game I intend to start running soon. (Actually, 'thou shalt not step on shtick' is a rule I've already used for years.)

 

Given that it's starting at a slightly power level, tho, I'd probably make "DC + SPD =< 22", not 20.

[CBikle]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

My original limits were 12 DC (and this included stuff like find weakness), max of 7 spd, CV of 10 and defenses of 30 (including Damage Reduction).

 

All of the above had to have a rationale that fit into the character concept.

 

I actually encourage high-skilled characters (up to the point they become ineffective in combat).

 

Few general guidelines: Players unfamiliar with the Hero System, don't get to have VPPs and players with high speed scores are expected to be concise with most of their actions.

[Agent X]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I like the eyeball approach.

 

If I'm running a game using CU villains from Champions, Champions Universe, Millennium City, and CKC then I tell the players that their characters need to roughly correspond with those 350 (or a little more) points characters in the books. That means abusive builds are right out.

 

What that means is I don't really have a cap or somesuch. What I do have is an eye for how the characters match up with each other and the world around them. That means, range-wise, the group as a whole will average out in the suggested range in the book although they will probably be higher in defense.

 

What does that mean for the villains? It means I might apply a small increase in their defenses to even the score or I might not. Case-by-case

 

I got tired of running games with caps where everybody basically ends up with nearly the same numbers.

[Force]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I got tired of running games with caps where everybody basically ends up with nearly the same numbers.

 

The caps I am refering to are only starting caps, not campaign caps.

 

I should have clarified that with my original post.

[Agent X]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

The caps I am refering to are only starting caps, not campaign caps.

 

I should have clarified that with my original post.

I'm not knocking them for other folks. I just don't use "hard" caps. My "soft" caps really aren't "soft caps" - they're more like where I think the norm over the group should be.

 

The gamers I play with, if you give them a "hard" cap of 12DC and 30 pd/30ed and 6 speed what will happen is this:

 

player 1: 12DC, 30 pd/30 ed, 5 speed

player 2: 12DC, 30 pd/30 ed, 5 speed

player 3: 12 DC, 28pd/25 ed, 5 speed

player 4: 11 DC, 30 pd/30 ed, 6 speed

player 5: 12 DC, 23 pd/ 30 ed, 5 speed

 

I'd rather see something like...

player 1: 17 DC, 15 pd/ 20ed (+20 ed vs. one form of energy), 4 speed

player 2: 14 DC, 35 pd/ 20 ed, 4 speed

player 3: 12 DC, 25 pd/ 25 ed, 6 speed

player 4: 10 DC, 30 pd/ 30 ed, 5 speed

player 5: 9 DC, 22 pd/ 20 ed, 8 speed

 

I didn't use combat values in the example but I think you get the idea.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

So judging from this thread the recommended def provided in 5th definitely seems a bit low. How did the slightly less than 2xdc in def work out in game play? And did you have a minimum amount of points that had to be spent on non-combat skills?

 

I built all the characters myself, actually (only one player had played Hero before, and in our group the GM usually just polls for character concepts and gives them to the players to check out.). I did try to keep a minimum of non-combat capability on all of them, but the Nanotech T1000 with no real experience got to count his various senses and shapeshifting powers towards that - I would have built with more skills if I had anticipated us playing it so much (I wasn't prepared for them to be happy to keep going... ).

 

The low DEF meant that the two PC's with Force Walls used them quite a bit.

The villains tended to have slightly smaller attacks - but the ones with big ones tended to insta KO (or near enough) when they hit. It was balanced by the fact that most of the attacks coming in were KA's (and thus tend to futz on either the Stun Multiple or the BODY roll), and that the enemies had fairly low OCV's.

 

Like I said, the "brick" (the T1000 type character) got KO'd a lot. Enough that when he rebuilt... well, given he was the highest CV character, and we'd spent two months forgetting he had 2 overall skill levels... let's just say the climax involved EVERY villain trying to take him down, and failing miserably.

 

(They had to, he was in position to demolish their plans... I slightly messed up the climax... dum de dum...)

 

 

I have to say, though, that the low defenses weren't a huge problem for the blaster types - which was everyone, really. Except the one melee guy,

 

 

Of course, they were up against foes with limited ranged power. I think that needs fixing for the future.

 

Still. It did work, I think.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

This is one formula I was specifically looking for! I knew someone had mentioned this [spd+dc] combo and I thought it was an excellent suggestion.

 

But did you have a minimum number of points that had to be spent on non-combat skills?

Nope. But 5% is about average for non-combat Skills. In our campaign every character was already something special before they became a superhero:

 

An Olympic-medal gymnast

A billionaire industrialist and philanthropist

A Nobel Prize-winning astrophysicist

A successful science fiction novelist

A senior detective in a national police force

A surgeon and tribal shaman

A volcanologist

A WW2 engineering officer assigned to the USS Philadelphia (The Philadelphia Experiment)

World "Unlimited Class " martial arts champion

 

None of our characters are average Joe's (or Jane's). Just as an example, my PC (the former Olympic gymnast) has 24 CP spent on non-combat Skills not including her 17- base Acrobatics or Breakfall. That's about 6%.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Question about 350pt campaign limits...

 

I have agreed with all of this for the longest time' date=' and will most likely (read: I'll bring it up at the players' meeting) steal it wholesale for the game I intend to start running soon. (Actually, 'thou shalt not step on shtick' is a rule I've already used for years.)[/quote']While we have to get GM approval; we'll generally also ask the other player if we're considering buying a new Power or Skill that might tread on their toes. For instance, we have a "ninja type" MA and when I was considering buying Zl'f Stealth I asked the player if he had any problems with her having Stealth; especially in light of the fact that her higher DEX will give her a higher Stealth roll. He had no objection, particularly since I made it clear I don't intend to buy Security Systems, Lockpicking, and the other Skills that make a good penetrator. She'll just be very good at moving quietly.

 

It helps that we're all friends first and foremost; many of us have known each other for over 20 years. Hero is not the only thing we do together.

 

Given that it's starting at a slightly power level, tho, I'd probably make "DC + SPD =< 22", not 20.

Since we're all at or near 400 CP now we've considered raising the formula to 22, but considering nobody has even bumped against the 20 yet there's no real hurry. Most of the team falls at 18 or 19 by the formula.