RFC: SPD on Demand

[Derek Hiemforth]

Given the number of different effects that can be usefully modelled by extra SPD (often with Limitations), it occurred to me that it would be nice to have a clean way to buy "stand-alone" SPD. The idea is to develop a way to buy extra actions that aren't necessarily tied to the Speed Chart. Comments specifically requested on my idea below (because I'm sure it's not fully-baked), but also welcomed on other possible ways to achieve this.

 

Just buying extra points of SPD, using the standard rules governing SPD, is problematic for many of these effects, for two main reasons...

 

One, SPD is segmented. If I have a standard SPD of 5, and I buy +1 SPD with Limitations for some additional effect, what happens to the Speed Chart? When exactly can I use my extra SPD?

 

Two, SPD is viewed by the system as a whole thing in many respects, and not as individual points of SPD. For example, if you want to buy extra SPD that costs END to use, there's no good way to do that. Because you're technically required to make all of your SPD cost END or none of it. You can't have it cost END to act on certain Segments, but not cost END to act on other Segments, for example.

 

However, the ability to have an extra Phase "on-demand" is certainly very powerful. So any such ability should be pretty pricey (although most applications of such a thing would have Limitations restricting what it can be used for, and how often, which could bring the price down).

 

With all that in mind, and also keeping in mind the suggestions for building new Powers by building them first as existing Powers (see 5ER page 565), I came up with this (basing the cost on a SPD of 12, which allows an Action Phase in every Segment)...

 

Independent Action

 

A character with this Special Power can use an Action Phase "on-demand." Functionally, it is identical to having a SPD of 12, and therefore a Phase to use on every Segment, in addition to the character's normal SPD. Independent Action costs 120 Character Points, and costs no END to use.

 

Phases from Independent Action can be used...

1. At the character's DEX value (or EGO, as appropriate) on Segments in which the character does not have a "normal" Phase.
2. Immediately before or after one of the character's normal Phases (on the same DEX/EGO value as their normal Phase, before proceeding on to the next character)
3. At other times by Aborting, in which case if can of course only be used for defensive purposes.

Independent Action allows a maximum of one extra Phase per Segment. However, Independent Action can be purchased more than once to allow additional extra Phases per Segment.

 

Due to its high cost, Independent Action is normally purchased with Limitations defining when and how it can be used. Here are some examples...

 

Always Saves The Day: This character is always there in the nick of time, to save the life of a hostage or helpless teammate. Independent Action (120 Active Points); Can Only Be Used When Someone Else's Life Is In Direct, Immediate Peril, And Only To Take Direct Action To Save That Person's Life (-2). Real Cost: 40 points.

 

Pushing My Speed: This super-speedster character is normally fast anyway. But with great exertion for an extra boost of superspeed, he can take an additional Phase whenever he really needs to. Independent Action (120 Active Points); Costs END (-1/2), 2x END (-1/2). Real Cost: 60 points.

 

The "Floating" Phase: This character essentially functions exactly as if their normal SPD was one point higher, except that the extra Phase he would have gained thereby can be used on any Segment in the Turn when he doesn't already have a Phase. Independent Action, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (150 Active Points); Extra Time: 1 Turn (-1.25), No Overlapping Phases (cannot be used on Segments his normal SPD acts on; -1). Real Cost: 46 points.

 

Eyes of the Beholder: The dreaded beholder has many different attacks, all emanating from its eight eyestalks and single central eye. The central eye can always act, but the eyestalks often interfere with each other, so sometimes they can attack and sometimes they can't. Independent Action (120 Active Points); Only For Attacks (no Aborting, no movement, etc.; -1), Activation Roll 9- (-1.75), Overlapping Phases Only (can only be used on Segments the beholder's normal SPD also acts on; -1). Real Cost: 25 points per eyestalk.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

I can see your point and rational, Derek, though I must admit I'm hesitant; even at a base cost of 120 points, I'm not sure it's something I'd want to allow in my game -- I'll have to think about that a bit more.

 

Also, the base price of 120 points, before limitations, will well and truly bust the Active Point cap that many games have...

[Cancer]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

I echo Dr. A here. I'd never allow the power in any game I ran. It just screams munchkin, and I'm not sure how, short of literally planet-busting attacks, you could plausibly overcome a character with that power (unless that is literally the only thing the character had).

[Diamond Spear]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

I like how you've written the power up but I do have a couple of suggestions.

 

In order to prevent one potential abuse, that of the "Double Recovery", make the power inherently unable to be used to take a recovery. You can then add an advantage at either +1/4 or +1/2 "Usable for Recoveries".

 

Also to ensure that clever players (helped by unobservant GM's) do not add enough limitations to really drop the price (Focus, charges, power frameworks etc.) make it inherently unable to be purchased as anything other than an inherent, stand alone power. In other words, you are either born with it or can't use it. You could always allow an advantage, again at either +1/4 or +1/2, to allow it to be bought through a focus or framework.

 

Or course these could also be the worst suggestion you've ever heard so...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

Nice job.

 

It's not something most GM's would allow for a beginning 350 character but with time and experience I could see a straight-speedster or even flying-brick getting some variation of this.

 

One question, Am I correct in figuring that Pushing My Speed would cost 24 END to use each phase?

 

HM

 

edited my math.

[Gary]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

Hmm, 12 additional speed seems to be excessive, even with limitations.

 

How about a new Advantage on Speed?

 

Floating Speed (+1)

This Advantage on Speed can be purchased on individual points of speed. A character's base speed determines when he normally goes in the turn. Each point of Floating Speed allows an action in an "off-phase". A character may not use 2 pts of Floating Speed in the same phase, or a point of Floating Speed on a phase where he has regular speed (unless he is unable to use that phase for whatever reason)

 

Example

Tuatara has a regular speed of 6, which means he can go on 2,4,6,8,10,12. If he purchases 2 Floating points of speed for 40 pts, that allows him the ability to go on any two of 1,3,5,7,9, or 11.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

I think the Stop sign you placed on this is appropriate, and the final write-up should reflect the concerns voiced here. I'd give two other changes as well.

 

First, to fit the ability in with the current rules (which don't currently allow a character to act more than once per Segment), it should be based on the character's SPD, being enough to give the character SPD 12. This makes it a "meta-power" and it could fit right in to The Ultimate Speedster (and possibly other books, though TUS does strike me as the most appropriate).

 

Second, rather than Diamond Spear's suggestion of a special Advantage, I'd require a Limitation (probably folded into other Limitations such as Costs Endurance or Only For A Specific Type Of Action) to prevent most cases of a character from using the SPD for Recovering.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

Second, rather than Diamond Spear's suggestion of a special Advantage, I'd require a Limitation (probably folded into other Limitations such as Costs Endurance or Only For A Specific Type Of Action) to prevent most cases of a character from using the SPD for Recovering.

 

See, I knew someone could say what I wanted to better than I could!

[Phil]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

Hmm, 12 additional speed seems to be excessive, even with limitations.

 

How about a new Advantage on Speed?

 

Floating Speed (+1)

This Advantage on Speed can be purchased on individual points of speed. A character's base speed determines when he normally goes in the turn. Each point of Floating Speed allows an action in an "off-phase". A character may not use 2 pts of Floating Speed in the same phase, or a point of Floating Speed on a phase where he has regular speed (unless he is unable to use that phase for whatever reason)

 

I have to say, I'm a big fan of simplicity. I like this approach a lot better, and it seems like an appropriate cost (I'd even be tempted to make it +3/4, probably needs play-testing).

 

As for Eye of the Beholder in Derek's original example, keep it simple will you! Surely this is just a multipower (potentially with linked CSLs, enlarged pool, etc.)

[zornwil]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

Hmm, 12 additional speed seems to be excessive, even with limitations.

 

How about a new Advantage on Speed?

 

Floating Speed (+1)

This Advantage on Speed can be purchased on individual points of speed. A character's base speed determines when he normally goes in the turn. Each point of Floating Speed allows an action in an "off-phase". A character may not use 2 pts of Floating Speed in the same phase, or a point of Floating Speed on a phase where he has regular speed (unless he is unable to use that phase for whatever reason)

 

Example

Tuatara has a regular speed of 6, which means he can go on 2,4,6,8,10,12. If he purchases 2 Floating points of speed for 40 pts, that allows him the ability to go on any two of 1,3,5,7,9, or 11.

But I think Derek is proposing additional actions any time, including twice in one Segment, so Floating SPD doesn't work.

 

We have done Floating SPD, but modelled it as +X SPD where X = 12 - PC's regular SPD, with a Limitation of 1 recoverable charge recovers once per turn (e.g., +5 SPD only usable one Phase per Turn for a SPD 7 character allows them a SPD 12 but only useful in one of the off-phases). Technically this breaks down as 1 Floating SPD costs:

 

40 points for a SPD 1 character (+11 SPD with above Lims)

36 points for a SPD 2 character

33 points for a SPD 3 character

29 points for a SPD 4 character

25 points for a SPD 5 character

22 points for a SPD 6 character

18 points for a SPD 7 character

15 points for a SPD 8 character

11 points for a SPD 9 character

- from here it starts to break down and the Lim isn't worth anything, as technically it becomes MORE effective to purchase

 

It works well for mid-SPD characters, it's arguably too expensive on the low end and at SPD 9 is definitely arguably too cheap, let alone the loss at the top end.

 

However, what it does model well is how valuable the extra SPDs are or are not, in general. For a low SPD character, it's a bigger deal as having a held action available is more difficult. For a higher SPD character, the extra SPD gets less and less useful since they can more easily have a held action available. The biggest value is ensuring you can move on Segment 1 - which drives the construct.

[zornwil]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

(snip)

 

The "Floating" Phase: This character essentially functions exactly as if their normal SPD was one point higher, except that the extra Phase he would have gained thereby can be used on any Segment in the Turn when he doesn't already have a Phase. Independent Action, Delayed Effect (+1/4) (150 Active Points); Extra Time: 1 Turn (-1.25), No Overlapping Phases (cannot be used on Segments his normal SPD acts on; -1). Real Cost: 46 points.

 

I snipped this as an example of cost issues. Consider that 46 points for a floating SPD for, say, a SPD 8 character really is way too much. He could more easily just spend 40 points, period, and have a SPD 12. As indicated in my post above, the utility varies with the SPD of the character.

 

That being said, it's a nifty idea, I just think it prices out wonky, though so does Gary and so does our Floating SPD construct as well. The wonkiness is all around the effectiveness of the character already at varying SPDs.

[ghost-angel]

Re: RFC: SPD on Demand

 

While the concept it sound, the whole idea of modeling a random SPD Action in HERO gets a bit weird for the reasons Zornwil pointed out - there's a massive difference in utility and point balance between low and high end SPDs, such as 5 and 8.