Old Testament Hero

[Kristopher]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

True.

But that doesn't mean they have modern thinking either.

I get really annoyed with how many fantasy players keep insisting on trying to invent things "in character". Either technological or sociological. No, they can't have gunpowder, democracy or athiesm - they're entire society and their upbringing means you have never heard of these things!

 

In general, yes, it's problematic for players to try to use modern scientific knowledge that's inappropriate to the setting.

 

However...

 

1. Someone has to be the one to come up with it...

 

2. Depends on the setting.

 

Even in our world, classical Athens was a democracy of sorts long before the period most fantasy would be set in. So was the Roman Republic. Did all knowledge of that disappear between then and the rise of the English Parliment?

 

Atheism... I don't know about other people, but I had trouble believing in god when I was 6 or 7, and I'd never heard of atheism at that age.

[Korgoth]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

First off I wanted to say THANK YOU Scott for a wonderfull book (Testament). I bought it as soon as it came out, and loved the Idea and setting. Odd in a way since I'm an Atheist myself, yet whenever I roleplay I seem to always go for the Hard Line Religious types, go fig .

 

BUT here is my acctual question to you Scott, or anyone else here on the forums.

 

Are there any other Game Products set in the same time period, but dealing with other Cultures in or near the Biblical Lands. That is Egypt, Assyria, Sumeria, Babylon, Hitties, Greeks? and so on. I personally have always kicked around the idea of a Biblical/Classical age setting, where every cultures Gods are not only real, but take an active part in there worshipers lives.

 

I would probably base the Gods relative Power on the number of the faithfull devoted to them. Also I'd make the God/Gods more powerfull nearer there own temples or the homelands of there worshipers. This give would make a People such as the Israelites and advantage over a Pantheistic People. As all the Israelites worship one God, where as the Egyptions, although more populus, spread there worship across many Gods. Deffinate advantage to a Monotheistic people.

 

So anyways asside from the Fantasy version of Egypt "Hamunaptra" and the other Mythic Vistas book "Troy" (I don't own it, I wonder if it could work with Testament for the same time periods) can anyone offer any other resources?

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Green Ronin put out a book in their Mythic Vistas line for (specifically for Testament) the Hittites.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

First off I wanted to say THANK YOU Scott for a wonderfull book (Testament). I bought it as soon as it came out, and loved the Idea and setting. Odd in a way since I'm an Atheist myself, yet whenever I roleplay I seem to always go for the Hard Line Religious types, go fig .

 

BUT here is my acctual question to you Scott, or anyone else here on the forums.

 

Are there any other Game Products set in the same time period, but dealing with other Cultures in or near the Biblical Lands. That is Egypt, Assyria, Sumeria, Babylon, Hitties, Greeks? and so on. I personally have always kicked around the idea of a Biblical/Classical age setting, where every cultures Gods are not only real, but take an active part in there worshipers lives.

 

I would probably base the Gods relative Power on the number of the faithfull devoted to them. Also I'd make the God/Gods more powerfull nearer there own temples or the homelands of there worshipers. This give would make a People such as the Israelites and advantage over a Pantheistic People. As all the Israelites worship one God, where as the Egyptions, although more populus, spread there worship across many Gods. Deffinate advantage to a Monotheistic people.

 

So anyways asside from the Fantasy version of Egypt "Hamunaptra" and the other Mythic Vistas book "Troy" (I don't own it, I wonder if it could work with Testament for the same time periods) can anyone offer any other resources?

 

As mentioned earlier, we did a cool little Hittites sourcebook for Testament.

 

Mythic Egypt (from ICE) and GURPS Egypt are the two big historical books in the same region. Both are good, IMO, and GURPS Egypt has the added bonus of being edited by Spike. Then for minis action, there's Crocodile Games' WarGods of Aegyptus.

 

Necromancer's Ancient Kingdoms: Mesapotamia has a smattering of source material. It's better treated as a d20 adventure campaign with a bronze age flavor than a Babylonian supplement; Necromancer boasts on the 1st edition AD&D feel of its books, and delivers on that promise.

 

For Greece, Trojan war's pretty good, if specialized. Aaron's Mythic Greece is great if you can find it.

[Badger]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

First off I wanted to say THANK YOU Scott for a wonderfull book (Testament). I bought it as soon as it came out, and loved the Idea and setting. Odd in a way since I'm an Atheist myself, yet whenever I roleplay I seem to always go for the Hard Line Religious types, go fig .

 

BUT here is my acctual question to you Scott, or anyone else here on the forums.

 

Are there any other Game Products set in the same time period, but dealing with other Cultures in or near the Biblical Lands. That is Egypt, Assyria, Sumeria, Babylon, Hitties, Greeks? and so on. I personally have always kicked around the idea of a Biblical/Classical age setting, where every cultures Gods are not only real, but take an active part in there worshipers lives.

 

I would probably base the Gods relative Power on the number of the faithfull devoted to them. Also I'd make the God/Gods more powerfull nearer there own temples or the homelands of there worshipers. This give would make a People such as the Israelites and advantage over a Pantheistic People. As all the Israelites worship one God, where as the Egyptions, although more populus, spread there worship across many Gods. Deffinate advantage to a Monotheistic people.

 

So anyways asside from the Fantasy version of Egypt "Hamunaptra" and the other Mythic Vistas book "Troy" (I don't own it, I wonder if it could work with Testament for the same time periods) can anyone offer any other resources?

 

 

Well, remember the Isrelites were always moving towards worshipping Baal. So she would be pretty powerful in the campaign you outlined too. And to some Israelites, I am pretty sure probably worshipped both. So Israel, a lot of times was polytheistic (not sure what to call 2 god system biestic, diestic?)

[CourtFool]

Curious

 

Honestly, this is not meant as a troll post. Please take it as honest curiosity and not criticism. What appeals about this setting to you?

[gojira]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Which one? The "Old Testament Hero," or one of the others mentioned?

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

I can't answer for others, but for me the appeal comes down to two very basic things:

 

Stories about Biblical heroes are fun. They're familiar, yet otherworldly: they're relevant to our lives in that they still influence our culture, yet there's an alienness to the culture, a sense of distance from modern times that the faux-medievalism of D&D and the painful anachronisms of your average fantasy RPG that (after playing in them, off and on, for 30 years now) feels like a breath of fresh air.

 

Late Bronze age and early iron Age history is interesting. We're dealing with a world in desperate times due the migration of the Sea Peoples and the emergence of Israel as a power in this dark age has historical interest that goes beyond religious belief. A collection of 12 squabbling nomad mountain tribes settling down and clawing a kingdom out of a dark age is a genunelly interesting set-up, and the struggle of a monotheistic cult to overturn the old religious order is an interesting element in and of itself.

 

The world of the Bible's the source for much of our culture. How could it not be an interesting place to have an RPG campaign?

[Korgoth]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

I never thought about Baal, and thats a good point. I could even play up the Dualisim or whatever you'd call it and make it bigger fight between the two faiths of the early Isrealites.

 

Thank you Scott and Spike as well for the great feedback and again a great suppliment. I have seen the Testement:Hittite PDF before but it was my bad for not reading it more closely, as I always thought it was a Adventure, not a Sourcebook. http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=4717

 

I've always wanted the Troy book so I think I'll pick it up. I'll try to hunt down GURP's Egypt as well based on your advice. The Wargods of Aegyptus are excellent and I've been tempted to order the Crocodiles for some time now I have also heard of the Necromancer's Mesopptamia book as well, but thought of it as an Adventure as well. If its cheap as a PDF what the hey.

 

To answer CourtFools question

 

For me, the Old Testament stories were always Interesting. The more Fire and Brimstone the better. I liked the conflicts and harsh justice of those tales. I'm not even religious by any means and they still apealed to me. It seemed to me, as Scott mentioned, this timeperiod and setting make an excellent place to role play in.

 

Also I've always thought to myself, even as a kid, of what would the world be like if all the myths, legends and beliefs of the worlds cultures were real. Sometimes these stories and faiths are stranger than fiction and todays Stock Fantasy settings.

 

Add to that the idea that each Faith or Cultures beliefs are equally valid and real, no one is right or wrong, true or false. And it is a true War of Faiths when they come into conflict, it seemed like a fantastic opportunity for a setting full of strife and adventure potential. One Faith wipes out and eventually converts or eliminates the followers of another. Gaining power and "mana?" for there own religion/religions. Harsh stuff perhaps but no worse than Slaying a bunch of Protohumaniod Greenskinned peoples just to take there stuff.

 

Since the Fertile Crescent has such a rich history, and there are a great variety of Cultures present. It seemed liked a perfect place to set a Campaing. One I never got off my **** to start or research much

 

So along came the Mythic Vistas: Testament book and I got interested again. It's always on the backburner of my mind. Just need to get cooking and flesh out some other cultures around Isreal, buy HERO Designer finnaly and put up a weeb page.

 

I'm sure I can get feedback from Scot and the other assorted HERO "Faith"full on the msg brds too.

 

P.S. If the God's of a Culture gain there relative power based upon the amount of Worshipers they attract, let alone how devoted those worshipers are. Then how would a go like say Ancient Greece's Ares fair in "strength". He is part of a Pantheon of God's so shares his worshipers with a dozen or so other Gods.

 

But his worship is not exclusive to that of other Greek Gods, so he is prayed to by all Greeks, just not all the time. And those that do pray, particularly Soldiers and Sparta (I can't find what citystate if any favored Ares) are particularly dedicated to him. So hes loose Power/Mana by sharing all Greek worshipers to the other Gods in Olympus, but gain more from those that pray to him as they are quite Dedicated or at least Desperate and Passionate when they do.

 

Just as thought on how a Polytheistic vs. Monotheistic Peoples Gods would rank in power vs. each other.

[Korgoth]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

No Other Gods - An Adventure for Testament

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=6079&reviews_id=11241&

 

Ahhhhhhh, this is the one I was refering to. I didn't realise there was a Hittites book and I thought you meant this Adv. Looks like I have 2 pdf's to grab now. And its nice to see Highmoon (thats you Scott?) is set to release more books for Testiment?

[CBikle]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Plus you can do cool things like turn some guy's wife into a pillar of salt.

 

Turning Someone Into a Pillar Of Salt(8d6 major transform: normal human into pillar of salt, fully indirect[+3/4], 1 hex accurate [+1/2])

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

No Other Gods - An Adventure for Testament

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=6079&reviews_id=11241&

 

Ahhhhhhh, this is the one I was refering to. I didn't realise there was a Hittites book and I thought you meant this Adv. Looks like I have 2 pdf's to grab now. And its nice to see Highmoon (thats you Scott?) is set to release more books for Testiment?

 

Highmoon is Daniel Perez's company. Daniel's going to be doing a magazine called Targum devoted to Testament and the Mythic Vistas line, with contriubutions from me and Spike (and others, like Chris Heard).

[Korgoth]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

I have to say, personally the Mythic Vistas line is my Favorite d20 work yet. Let alone RPG work period. Testament, Skull & Crossbones. The Black Company, Eternal Rome, The Red Star, Trojan War. I would love to fine Spiros Blaak and Mindshadows too but can't find them anywere.

 

All stuff is ripe for HERO conversion.

[Badger]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Well, I always loved listening to the Old Testament stories. When I was little I would be more thrilled when we were discussing Old rather than New in Sunday School. And I have always loved historic* stories. History was my favorite subject.

 

 

*I put this because well, I didnt want to start a war on religion.

[Labrat]

Re: Curious

 

Honestly' date=' this is not meant as a troll post. Please take it as honest curiosity and not criticism. What appeals about this setting to you?[/quote']

 

I agree. This topic is sacred to some of us and the history has already been written... as I said before (ad nauseum elsewhere), why not just make something up entirely instead of 're-enacting' things that are historical and risking insult to fellow-gamers? I don't understand it myself.

 

But, hey, if it gets some to read the Bible then it's worth it. Ironically if you delve into the subject matter of the real-world Testament you probably wouldn't find it all that appealing. I would honestly advise against playing with a person's real-life beliefs 'for fun'. Real people suffered real pain and real anguish for their faith and this kind of role-playing belittles the blood and sacrifice of other real people. It's certainly not all about pillars of salt and 'resurrection spells'. Please re-consider it, or at least reconsider discussing it here.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Personally, I like the idea of playing in a historical setting- and don't see it as any different than playing in the Old West, the Napoleonic Empire, Feudal Japan, the Revolutionary War, the Crusades, etc.

(Actually, less offensive than the Crusades, because Christians "know" there is no doubt that their Israelite PC is on the right side.)

The book has a generally respectful treatment of YHVH (Except for the concept of saying that all gods are equally powerful:straight:).

It does state:

A GM could decide, though to make one religious point of view supreme, in which case the will of the god of Israel always triumphs over that of Marduk or Melkart (or vice-versa if he prefers).

You can prob guess how I would play it

The idea of playing during the Caananite wars intrigues me... yes, much is written about it, but those wars last a VERY long time, and not all of it is covered. Sounds like a campaign to me.

Let's kill some Phillistines!

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Curious

 

I agree. This topic is sacred to some of us and the history has already been written... as I said before (ad nauseum elsewhere), why not just make something up entirely instead of 're-enacting' things that are historical and risking insult to fellow-gamers? I don't understand it myself.

 

But, hey, if it gets some to read the Bible then it's worth it. Ironically if you delve into the subject matter of the real-world Testament you probably wouldn't find it all that appealing. I would honestly advise against playing with a person's real-life beliefs 'for fun'. Real people suffered real pain and real anguish for their faith and this kind of role-playing belittles the blood and sacrifice of other real people. It's certainly not all about pillars of salt and 'resurrection spells'. Please re-consider it, or at least reconsider discussing it here.

 

People honor the sacred in different ways. Some believe that it has to be incorporated into everything they do, and explored through their artistic gifts. None of us have voices worthy of God, yet we sing songs of praise anyway, and have done so crom the time of the Psalmists, and God, it is said, is not offended by them, but delights in them. It's arguable from a Christian perspective that no artist on Earth is fit to draw Jesus, but many people like to draw Biblical scenes. No Christian criticizes Christmas cards for daring to show the Nativity, or takes Michalangelo to task for his hubris in drawing the image of God on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

 

We perform dramas such as Dorothy Sayers _The Man Born to Be King_, or Mel Gibson's _Passion of the Christ_, both of which are obviously extrapolations of the text, but are intended to honor God, and they're widely accepted in the Christian community. Despite the fact that they deal with the pain, suffering and death of Christianity's holiest figure.

 

The sacrosanct does not mean untouchable. Why is gaming, if it is done respectfully, seen as dishonoring when other artistic media are not? Because it's fun? Singing is fun. Drawing is fun. Because it's flippant? Yes, many gamers are iconoclastic, even sacrilegious. But should that disqualify the idea? People can have very serious games, very intense, thematically powerful games, just as we can get flippant song lyrics or cartoony art. Motivation is everything.

 

And while the grand history of the Biblical era is written, the personal history of a player character is not, at least until the game is played. Just as in any RPG. There are periods in the Bible which are well-suited to player charactrers making a big impact, just as there are ways (which we used in Testament) to protect the dignity and status of historical characters.

 

In my view though, historical RPGing isn't about making huge impacts on the cultureand displacing the big characters of the era, it's best seen as having interesting adventures within a historical framework. My character in our Pulp hero game, Billy Deighton, is never going to prevent the Nazis from coming to power, or defeat MacKenzie King to become Prime Minister of Canada. However, he still manages to have interesting and fun adventures. Furthermore, when I'm playing Billy, I'm not dishonoring the very real pain, suffering, and death of those who lived in the Dirty 30s - which includes my parents - by role-playing in the time. Rather, I see it as a way of getting to know the times in which they lived a little better and honoring their memory.

 

Which is a way of answering the question of "why not make something else up?". Because whenn you distance yourself from history, you lose a perspective that can be interesting -- and honoring -- to those who lived in them.

 

It should not come as a surprise that idea of RPGing characters in Biblical history falls outside of people's comfort zones. Comfort zones expand through practice and exploration, and a lot of people don't have a practise in the sort of serious games that would be honoring as a form of worship. Indeed, a lot of people don't want to expand into more serious games. And that's fine, people should respect the differences of gamers, rather than impose theme or play style. It's maddeningly hard enough to find a group that will be respectfully serious toward non-Biblical games, so some apprehension aboiut how people will respect your beliefs is, at least as a practical matter, is understandable.

 

However, the idea of enjoying yourself playing a Biblical character is as worthy as any other. What's more, it's okay to have fun with it too. Fun does not disclude respect. People who are uncomfortable with the idea of Biblical RPGing should give some thought to the idea that the limits of their comfort zone are not - and should not be - a test of faith or a universal standard of "sacredness" for all people of their faith.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Curious

 

And while the grand history of the Biblical era is written, the personal history of a player character is not, at least until the game is played. Just as in any RPG. There are periods in the Bible which are well-suited to player charactrers making a big impact, just as there are ways (which we used in Testament) to protect the dignity and status of historical characters.

Repped.

------------------

It is a very well written book, that I bought expecting to get angry. I didn't, it is done that well. (A quick glance at the NGD threads will show my religious leanings)

I will be looking forward to the additional source material in the mag.

[Labrat]

Re: Curious

 

However' date=' the idea of enjoying yourself playing a Biblical character is as worthy as any other. What's more, it's okay to have fun with it too. Fun does not disclude respect. People who are uncomfortable with the idea of Biblical RPGing should give some thought to the idea that the limits of their comfort zone are not - and should not be - a test of faith or a universal standard of "sacredness" for all people of their faith.[/quote']

 

Thanks for your answers. I can appreciate your POV on the matter. It's not so much 'wrong' or 'taboo' as it is disrespectful IMO. Historically, yes, it should be fine to play soldiers at any war in history, but when you add the element of the spiritual that is where interests would clash because, in essence, you are second guessing God and His decisions. Playing 'religeous zealots' isn't really along the same lines as other types of heroes, just as much as playing 9/11 terrorists (other 'religeous zealots') wouldn't be... after all they are heroes to some. It smacks of theology-bashing although more mature gamers could, of course, treat it with respect if they elected to. Thus my confusion remains as to the draw, but I'm no expert in this so I'll just respectfully choose to stay out of it now that I've said my peace.

[CourtFool]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Leave it to Llama to inadvertently start a flame war.

[Labrat]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Leave it to Llama to inadvertently start a flame war.

 

Oh gosh... I hope my comments didn't sound inflammatory, they weren't meant to be. And I certainly didn't take offense to Bennie's defense of the inquiries provided. I think his justification works, it's just a matter of how your own mileage varies. My response is my personal view, not meant to be imposed or judgemental to anyone else who doesn't mind the subject matter.

 

No flames, here, O Llama!

[Kristopher]

Re: Curious

 

People honor the sacred in different ways. Some believe that it has to be incorporated into everything they do, and explored through their artistic gifts. None of us have voices worthy of God, yet we sing songs of praise anyway, and have done so crom the time of the Psalmists, and God, it is said, is not offended by them, but delights in them. It's arguable from a Christian perspective that no artist on Earth is fit to draw Jesus, but many people like to draw Biblical scenes. No Christian criticizes Christmas cards for daring to show the Nativity, or takes Michalangelo to task for his hubris in drawing the image of God on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

 

We perform dramas such as Dorothy Sayers _The Man Born to Be King_, or Mel Gibson's _Passion of the Christ_, both of which are obviously extrapolations of the text, but are intended to honor God, and they're widely accepted in the Christian community. Despite the fact that they deal with the pain, suffering and death of Christianity's holiest figure.

 

The sacrosanct does not mean untouchable. Why is gaming, if it is done respectfully, seen as dishonoring when other artistic media are not? Because it's fun? Singing is fun. Drawing is fun. Because it's flippant? Yes, many gamers are iconoclastic, even sacrilegious. But should that disqualify the idea? People can have very serious games, very intense, thematically powerful games, just as we can get flippant song lyrics or cartoony art. Motivation is everything.

 

And while the grand history of the Biblical era is written, the personal history of a player character is not, at least until the game is played. Just as in any RPG. There are periods in the Bible which are well-suited to player charactrers making a big impact, just as there are ways (which we used in Testament) to protect the dignity and status of historical characters.

 

In my view though, historical RPGing isn't about making huge impacts on the cultureand displacing the big characters of the era, it's best seen as having interesting adventures within a historical framework. My character in our Pulp hero game, Billy Deighton, is never going to prevent the Nazis from coming to power, or defeat MacKenzie King to become Prime Minister of Canada. However, he still manages to have interesting and fun adventures. Furthermore, when I'm playing Billy, I'm not dishonoring the very real pain, suffering, and death of those who lived in the Dirty 30s - which includes my parents - by role-playing in the time. Rather, I see it as a way of getting to know the times in which they lived a little better and honoring their memory.

 

Which is a way of answering the question of "why not make something else up?". Because whenn you distance yourself from history, you lose a perspective that can be interesting -- and honoring -- to those who lived in them.

 

It should not come as a surprise that idea of RPGing characters in Biblical history falls outside of people's comfort zones. Comfort zones expand through practice and exploration, and a lot of people don't have a practise in the sort of serious games that would be honoring as a form of worship. Indeed, a lot of people don't want to expand into more serious games. And that's fine, people should respect the differences of gamers, rather than impose theme or play style. It's maddeningly hard enough to find a group that will be respectfully serious toward non-Biblical games, so some apprehension aboiut how people will respect your beliefs is, at least as a practical matter, is understandable.

 

However, the idea of enjoying yourself playing a Biblical character is as worthy as any other. What's more, it's okay to have fun with it too. Fun does not disclude respect. People who are uncomfortable with the idea of Biblical RPGing should give some thought to the idea that the limits of their comfort zone are not - and should not be - a test of faith or a universal standard of "sacredness" for all people of their faith.

 

Repped.

[gojira]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

Stories about Biblical heroes are fun. They're familiar, yet otherworldly: they're relevant to our lives in that they still influence our culture, yet there's an alienness to the culture, a sense of distance from modern times that the faux-medievalism of D&D and the painful anachronisms of your average fantasy RPG that (after playing in them, off and on, for 30 years now) feels like a breath of fresh air.

 

Late Bronze age and early iron Age history is interesting. We're dealing with a world in desperate times due the migration of the Sea Peoples and the emergence of Israel as a power in this dark age has historical interest that goes beyond religious belief. A collection of 12 squabbling nomad mountain tribes settling down and clawing a kingdom out of a dark age is a genunelly interesting set-up, and the struggle of a monotheistic cult to overturn the old religious order is an interesting element in and of itself.

 

Well, since the Q seems to be directed at the OT, then I'll just have to rep Bennie again or something.

 

This basically says it all. It's an interesting period historically. There's a well developed belief system. Literal gods and miracles are presumed to exist by the people living there. And it's darn different from the Tolkien baseline of most fantasy RPG. I haven’t ever played it, but it seems like a fun idea.

[mattingly]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

And now you can play Samson, David, and Moses exploring The Keep on the Borderlands.

[gojira]

Re: Old Testament Hero

 

In all seriousness, I wouldn't be too much interested in playing prominent figures like Samson and David and Moses. They might make great NPCs or Patrons for the players, but using them directly feels a little wrong to me.

 

A OT Hero game featuring these persons would be a one shot for 350 point characters at best. It might make an interesting Con game, for example. But after you've led your people to freedom, then what what do you do? Hang out on your date farm for 600 years? Oi.