Most Powerful Member of the FF?

[Starlord]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Also, while I've only read maybe a third of all the FF stories out there, I'm pretty sure that, in the end, it was Reed pulling something out of his brain to defeat that episode's villain for most of them. The other three members are basically almost cannon fodder at times - they are there to give Reed the time he needs.

[assault]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Reed by a mile.

[MisterBaldy]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Argue as you might about who's the most powerful.

 

It's definitely Sue. She's not only the most powerful in raw power...but she is the cement that holds the team together.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

For all that a lot of people are saying "Reed", I am reminded of all the times where "Reed's solution to the problem" was to say "Sue, I need you to do such and such improbable task with your powers, despite knowing that you've never done anything of this magnitude before...", and then Sue actually did what she was being asked to do, because she had the raw juice to do it.

 

Sue wins the "Most Powerful" game, hands down.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

For all that a lot of people are saying "Reed"' date=' I am reminded of all the times where "Reed's solution to the problem" was to say "Sue, I need you to do such and such improbable task with your powers, despite knowing that you've never done anything of this magnitude before...", and then Sue actually [b']did[/b] what she was being asked to do, because she had the raw juice to do it.

 

Sue wins the "Most Powerful" game, hands down.

 

But if Reed knows more about her abilities/limits than she does, that just speaks for the GadgetOfDoom option...

[Hermit]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Yeah, if the question was on which one was most 'innately' powerful, Sue owns it, but the fact is Reed's ability to build just about anything for almost any purpose science fiction can BS its way through is a great equalizer (if not more than that).

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Does anyone else find it intriguing that the two dominant options now were the weakest characters in their first appearance? I find it fascinating to see how they have evolved. IMNSHO, The Fantastic Four (and Dr. Doom, for that matter) are the classic example of characters earning and spending exp through years of development. Few other characters have evolved so much (excepting Superman's power inflation gone mad).

[OddHat]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Does anyone else find it intriguing that the two dominant options now were the weakest characters in their first appearance? I find it fascinating to see how they have evolved. IMNSHO' date=' The Fantastic Four (and Dr. Doom, for that matter) are the classic example of characters earning and spending exp through years of development. Few other characters have evolved so much (excepting Superman's power inflation gone mad).[/quote']

 

In practical terms, I think it's the result of constant attempts to prove that the "weak" characters can be cool too, but I do like the XP explanation.

 

As to Superman, an average of 24XP per year for 67 years will do some surprising things to any character.

[Hermit]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Does anyone else find it intriguing that the two dominant options now were the weakest characters in their first appearance? I find it fascinating to see how they have evolved. IMNSHO' date=' The Fantastic Four (and Dr. Doom, for that matter) are the classic example of characters earning and spending exp through years of development. Few other characters have evolved so much (excepting Superman's power inflation gone mad).[/quote']

 

Well, credit to Bryne for the turn around on Sue. Reed's knack for pulling THE right device or idea out at the last minute seems to be pretty old to me mind you. Reed himself has claimed that he always thought his intellect was his real super power. That said, yeah, it is neat to read comics and guess where they've been putting their points.

 

"Ben Grim just spent some extra XP into wealth? That's new." etc.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

In practical terms, I think it's the result of constant attempts to prove that the "weak" characters can be cool too, but I do like the XP explanation.

 

As to Superman, an average of 24XP per year for 67 years will do some surprising things to any character.

Perhaps, but his power explosion came long before he hit modern day. I think he was the GM's pet. "Ok, Dark Vigilante Guy and Water Breather get 2 xp for that adventure. Superman, you get 57 xp for that adventure..."

 

On the other hand, The FF grew gradually, and you can see a progressive development in their powers- even Ben and Johnny.

[Vigil]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

The problem with your Superman XP theory, Oddhat and with any XP theory is that characters are never shown as growing gradually. With Supes, one day he was "x" powerful and the next he was blowing out stars. Even at the beginning he grew by leaps, not steps. Even after Crisis, when I had hope for several minutes that Superman's absurd extremes would be constrained he quickly mushroomed back to his old over-the-top, porcine characterization.

 

In many ways, Superman is the poster child for lousy character construction. He just gets more and more baroque. There never seems to be any thought as to solving problems with the application of powers or skills at Superman's current level. Instead the solution pretty much universally seems to be to increase Superman's powers to the point where the problem just vanishes. Right now, he's to the point where hes almost as imbalanced as he was just before the Crisis...maybe that's why there's another Crisis now, to "prune' Superman's excesses.

 

I almost laughed out loud during the In the Name of Gog (imo another moronic character btw) arc when Superman coyly said that Jonn's the most powerful member of the JLA and that whatever it is Superman's sure he can handle it? Yeah right! Has that ever been demonstrated? Maybe Superman's delusional? Drunk? Insane? I don't know. But it's always this kind of coy storytelling that reveals Superman as the bloated pig of a character that he is. Given his incredibly disproportionate power level, the rest of the JLA are simply irrelevant. If Supes can't handle it, they're screwed. And if he can, they're unneccessary as anything other than a chearing and mop up section. That's always been the problem with and, seemingly, always will be the problem with Superman. He's aan idea that always lacks in the execution.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

Vigil

[Hermit]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

So, just a guess here, but Vigil is not a superman fan?

 

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Well, credit to Bryne for the turn around on Sue. Reed's knack for pulling THE right device or idea out at the last minute seems to be pretty old to me mind you. Reed himself has claimed that he always thought his intellect was his real super power. That said, yeah, it is neat to read comics and guess where they've been putting their points.

 

"Ben Grim just spent some extra XP into wealth? That's new." etc.

Ok...I'll give Byrne some credit. Just a little. (Damn, you're cruel to me. ) He did develop Sue into a powerhouse. HOWEVER...it really was just a logical if long overdue extension of her force fields into a variety of uses. The real boost for her was when they decide to give her force fields at all in issue #22. (Also significant as containing the first utterance of "It's Clobbering Time!")

[Hermit]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

I yield to your superior KS: Comic Books score. See, I wouldn't have remembered the numbers or that those happened in the same issue

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

I yield to your superior KS: Comic Books score. See' date=' I wouldn't have remembered the numbers or that those happened in the same issue [/quote']

It's not remembering (cause I didn't) but knowing where to look .

 

These classes are paying off. I may just be a librarian yet!

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

You are a better man than I am. Giving Byrne credit for anything positive would give me a coronary.

[Starlord]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

You are a better man than I am. Giving Byrne credit for anything positive would give me a coronary.

 

Ouch. Not even his penciling abilities?

[Vigil]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

So you wouldn't even give Byrne credit for the coronary that he induced? That's cold, man, cold.

 

Vigil

[OddHat]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

The problem with your Superman XP theory' date=' Oddhat and with any XP theory is that characters are never shown as growing gradually.[/quote']

 

Snipping the Super Hate (), I do agree that applying game mechanic based explanations to anything that happens in comic books is silly. Ideally, the mechanics both model a genre and make it possible to play games that fit into that genre; comic book stories are under no obligation to follow our model. At their silliest, these arguments remind me of grad students creating mathematical models that don't match physical reality, and then arguing sincerely that reality is at fault.

 

Myself, I like Superman in the abstract. The Infinite Power Superman works best in comedy or as background, but high power characters are only a problem when the writer isn't up to giving them interesting challenges.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Myself, I like Superman in the abstract. The Infinite Power Superman works best in comedy or as background, but high power characters are only a problem when the writer isn't up to giving them interesting challenges.

 

Repped!

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Reed obviously has a Cosmic Gadget Pool. Whoop-dee-doo.

His gadgets are 80% plot devices. In combat, he is actually pretty pathetic.

Batman has a Cosmic Gadget Pool, but kick your *** without it.

Obviously, Batman is more powerful than Reed. Reeds gadgets are always "last minute, oh crap", items that scream "Power Ranger Megazord sword". Considering that any of those devices can equally be countered by Doom, and vice-versa, his gadgets are moot.

 

Sue on the other hand is the Marvel Universe's Green Lantern.

She has all that and invisibility, and no annoying problems with yellow.

Considering that she is a match for any of the GLC, who SuperClark considers to be as powerful, if not more...

That settles who is the most powerful of the FF.

Plus, remember, 1st law of nature- don't screw with mommy. When she takes the defending mother stance, she has let loose with Armor, blades, spears, and pried her enemies apart. (More reasons why Unthinkable was pathetic, she was pretty useless in it.)

 

We do not count the most obvious character officially in the group- Franklin, because he doesn't make plot deivces, he is a plot device. If he were to count, he would be more powerful than the FF and Avengers combined. He ***** smacked Mephisto, for crying out loud.

[Vigil]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Say what Daeudi?

 

Because Reed and Doom are equally brilliant at creating last minute gadgets Batman is more powerful than them? It's funny but I don't think there's anything "obvious" about Batman being more powerful than Reed, nevertheless Doom. Did Batman tell you this? In fact, I think there's tons of evidence to the contrary.

 

As for Sue being Marvel's equivalent of GL? Well, this's the first time I've ever heard that and I've read both lines for over 30 years. I think Dr. Spectrum is a much more obviously equal to Gl type character and Sue is vastly different. She's undeniably powerful, that's true but I don't see much of any baiss to compare her to GL.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

The difference is, Sue doesn't have a ring you can take away from her, and Kyle's got no imagination.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Reed obviously has a Cosmic Gadget Pool. Whoop-dee-doo.

His gadgets are 80% plot devices. In combat, he is actually pretty pathetic...

A common misconception. Reed doesn't like hand to hand combat, which is entirely different from being bad at it. He has been shown several times being surprisingly effective, especially against multiple foes. The only problem is that unlike Ben or Johnny (and recently Sue) he needs major provoking to do any damage. His usual attacks are based upon trapping/restricting while eluding. If he sees one of his own go down, though, he can conjure a vast array of devastating attacks. Don't see it much in the modern, but in the old days he used to do the Metal Men type of stuff like making his hands into gigantic mallets, or spiky plates. Additionally, he has a major surprise factor on his side. Everyone thought it was great to see Elastigirl kick so mmuch ***...who do you think came up with those tricks?

 

(Ok, it was Plastic Man. But Reed can do that stuff, too!)

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Most Powerful Member of the FF?

 

Say what Daeudi?

 

Because Reed and Doom are equally brilliant at creating last minute gadgets Batman is more powerful than them? It's funny but I don't think there's anything "obvious" about Batman being more powerful than Reed, nevertheless Doom. Did Batman tell you this? In fact, I think there's tons of evidence to the contrary.

 

As for Sue being Marvel's equivalent of GL? Well, this's the first time I've ever heard that and I've read both lines for over 30 years. I think Dr. Spectrum is a much more obviously equal to Gl type character and Sue is vastly different. She's undeniably powerful, that's true but I don't see much of any baiss to compare her to GL.

Actually, if you re-read my post, I state that ignoring the VPPs of both characters, Batman is much more powerful. The VPPs balance each other out- sure, Reed's can affect Entities, but it takes him a while to get it ready. Batman always has just what he needs (and taking into account his JLA activity, he has fought an Entity or two as well.)

 

Spectrum: Should the Max Universe be considered part of Marvel? Besides, they are- of course- knockoffs of the Superfriends.

Sue's ability with her forcefield is just as powerful as any GL ring. She can shape her FF the same as a ring. Although rare, she can even fly with it (admittedly, no FTL- but that is not relevant to this) She doesn't need a battery to recharge, lacks any of the limitations(yellow, OIF), and she has Invisibilty. She could easily tie with any GL except Hal. All she lacks with it is long term LS.

 

Although Reed is capable of forming interesting weapons- he is still limited by his strength in terms of damage. he is adding at most 3 DC. Yes, he has been known to let loose, but it still pales in comparison to the other three.

 

EDIT PS: And I NEVER, ever, NEVER said that Batman was more powerful than Dr. VonDoom