Worst comic book superfight ever

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re: the Deathstroke vs. JLA fight in Identity Crisis:

 

Now that I think about it, if Slade had gotten ahold of Rayner's power-ring, he probably could've defeated Superman as well.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

(and Spidey gets stronger when he's angry)

This is not the first time this has been mentioned in this thread, and I've never herd it outside this thread. Can someone provide a cite?

 

[edit]

It's not listed in his power suite.

Is answer question. Thank you.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, borrowed THOR #225-228 from a friend.

 

This was Firelord's first appearance in comics.

 

THOR #225, Firelord spends about (edit) a third of the book trading punches with Hercules. They're busy slamming each other, tackling each other through walls, and in general wrecking the landscape.

 

End of the book, Thor finally pulls them apart. Neither one of them is mussed. By this point, Heracles has been wailing on the guy in a rage (and vice versa) at least six pages, and Firelord's not even winded. Firelord announces his intention to send Galactus a signal. Ends on a cliffhanger.

 

THOR #226, Firelord fires a blast of cosmic energy up into the sky, summoning Galactus. He then uses a blast of cosmic flame to make Thor and Hercules back off, and flies away. Galactus shows up and goes 'No, I'm not here to eat Earth, I just want your help Thor in taking on Ego the Living Planet. Oh, and Hercules can come too since he's here.'

 

As they travel there, Ego sends uberpowerful humanoid constructs to attack them. Thor and Hercules hit them as hard as they can, and while they can send the creatures sprawling, they keep getting back up. Firelord then casually atomizes the lot with a blast of cosmic flame.

 

THOR #227-228, the three of them take on Ego The Living Planet and his horde of constructs. Firelord runs neck-and-neck with both Thor and Hercules throughout the entire sequence, both as far as taking hits and dishing them out goes. He doesn't use his cosmic flame blast very much. Then again, they were fighting in tunnels.

 

So, even from the very start, they established -- not using his cosmic powers but just his innate strength and durability, he runs neck-and-neck with guys like Thor and Hercules. *Using* his cosmic powers, he effortlessly vaporizes things that Thor and Hercules are straining to hurt.

 

Spider-Man beat this dude?

 

Edit -- oh, and re: psych lims -- the reason Hercules went off on Firelord? Firelord walked into a hospital. A doctor told him that he had to leave, he was frightening the patients and posed a fire hazard besides.

 

Firelord lit the guy's clothes on fire (as in 'they're rushing the victim to the critical burn ward', not 'gave him a hotfoot') for giving him lip. When Hercules grabbed his arm for that, Firelord then went 'How dare you touch me! No one touches me!' and presto, instant battle royal.

 

So, not exactly "Protective of Innocents, Common, Strong" here.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Nah. I found my copy of Secret Wars #8' date=' and the facts have been misrepresented.[/quote']

 

Misremembered, not misrepresented. I haven't owned, much less read, Secret Wars #8 since I was 10 or 11.

 

 

 

Spidey didn't have the symbiote. He got that at the end of the issue. He fought Titania in the middle, in his red and blues.

 

Who mentioned the symbiote during this fight?

 

 

For two, it wasn't slaps and judo throws and "let's make her mad so I survive this." It was closed fists, kicks, and knocking her around. SPidey ends the fight by throwing her out a window, and Titania ends the fight unconscious. It was a legitimate beatdown, and Spidey did it with casual contempt.

 

But it wasn't Spidey who rendered her so, except indirectly. His action (pitching her through a wall) didn't so much as daze her from what you are saying, much less knock her out. It was the mile-high fall that did it.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I mentioned the symbiote. Also a misremembering. But you are correct, the point stands, dropping somebody for a 1-mile fall is not proof that you can KO them with your mighty fist. It's merely proof that gravity is still working.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

 

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Chuckg again.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah' date=' I see. *I* don't get to pick which stories are believable or jibing with the MU, and which aren't. Only *Agent X* gets to pick those. He's the boss of everyone on these boards, and I am not. [/quote']

 

 

Ignore him. I do.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Re: the Deathstroke vs. JLA fight in Identity Crisis:

 

Now that I think about it, if Slade had gotten ahold of Rayner's power-ring, he probably could've defeated Superman as well.

 

 

If the writer had gone even more stupid than he did, you mean?

 

Kyle's ring only works for Kyle. Period. To anyone else, its about as effective a weapon as a crackerjack toy. The writer conveniently forgot that established fact in his rush to a) make Deathstroke look tougher than he should and make the JLA look like a bunch of first graders.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Also borrowed a copy of THOR 246-247.

 

This is the Firelord vs. Thor knockdown.

 

Case in point -- through most of this book, Firelord is operating under a case of amnesia, having been inflicted on him by a sorceress (imaginatively named 'Gypsy' ) in the service of some grotty Central American revolutionaries. (Apparently, Galactus really skimped on the Mental Defense when assembling the Firelord model of Herald. Then again, the Surfer's had his own embarassing moments with Mind Control, and this same woman's mind control Focus was also able to Mind Control freaking Thor, so I shouldn't be too harsh.)

 

They were planning to use Firelord as a weapon to take over the banana republic they lived in. Needless to say, this is a plan that would have succeeded handily, had Thor not shown up and gone 'Firelord? What are you doing working with these guys? It doesn't seem like you for some reason.'

 

At any rate, Thor shows up and tries to reason with the guy, but Firelord has no idea who he is, and has his handlers yelling 'He's the enemy! Attack!' besides. So, in classic Marvel fashion, two protagonists are gonna spend pages and pages slamming each other in the face because one of them is amnesiac/mind-controlled/really hot-tempered/mistook the other one for a villain/trick of the light/the editor was bored/etc. But I digress again.

 

At any rate, THOR #246:

 

It leads off with both of them shooting energy blasts at the other. Since Mjolnir is really really really good with the absorbing and redirecting energy, the cosmic fire doesn't touch Thor. Likewise, Thor's godforce blast, not nudging Firelord. So, Thor takes it to melee range.

 

First shot, Thor gets Firelord a solid shot with Mjolnir right in the sternum, and does... Knockdown. That's it. Firelord gets right back up, fresh as a daisy, and whacks Thor over the head with his cosmic staff. Thor steps back and throws Mjolnir...

 

... and Firelord bats the incoming Mjolnir away like Mark McGwire swinging on a softball pitch. Mjolnir goes flying way way thataway off into the trees.

 

'Gypsy' then shows up and entrances Thor with her mind control gem as well. Issue ends.

 

THOR #247:

 

Thor and Firelord beat up on people until Jane Foster manages to get Gypsy's mind control gem away from her, and gives it to Firelord to smash. Freed from the mind control, the two titans then proceed to thrash the mooks most mightily. The end.

 

Fight between Thor and Firelord, not very long, admitted. But notice that Firelord was actually able to not merely bounce Mjolnir off his defenses like it was nothing, but actually /casually slap it out of the air/. Do you know what kind of strength it takes to redirect Mjolnir in flight against Thor's will?

 

Again, Spidey beat this?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OK, borrowed THOR #225-228 from a friend.

 

This was Firelord's first appearance in comics.

 

THOR #225, Firelord spends about (edit) a third of the book trading punches with Hercules. They're busy slamming each other, tackling each other through walls, and in general wrecking the landscape.

 

End of the book, Thor finally pulls them apart. Neither one of them is mussed. By this point, Heracles has been wailing on the guy in a rage (and vice versa) at least six pages, and Firelord's not even winded. Firelord announces his intention to send Galactus a signal. Ends on a cliffhanger.

 

THOR #226, Firelord fires a blast of cosmic energy up into the sky, summoning Galactus. He then uses a blast of cosmic flame to make Thor and Hercules back off, and flies away. Galactus shows up and goes 'No, I'm not here to eat Earth, I just want your help Thor in taking on Ego the Living Planet. Oh, and Hercules can come too since he's here.'

 

As they travel there, Ego sends uberpowerful humanoid constructs to attack them. Thor and Hercules hit them as hard as they can, and while they can send the creatures sprawling, they keep getting back up. Firelord then casually atomizes the lot with a blast of cosmic flame.

 

THOR #227-228, the three of them take on Ego The Living Planet and his horde of constructs. Firelord runs neck-and-neck with both Thor and Hercules throughout the entire sequence, both as far as taking hits and dishing them out goes. He doesn't use his cosmic flame blast very much. Then again, they were fighting in tunnels.

 

So, even from the very start, they established -- not using his cosmic powers but just his innate strength and durability, he runs neck-and-neck with guys like Thor and Hercules. *Using* his cosmic powers, he effortlessly vaporizes things that Thor and Hercules are straining to hurt.

 

Spider-Man beat this dude?

 

Edit -- oh, and re: psych lims -- the reason Hercules went off on Firelord? Firelord walked into a hospital. A doctor told him that he had to leave, he was frightening the patients and posed a fire hazard besides.

 

Firelord lit the guy's clothes on fire (as in 'they're rushing the victim to the critical burn ward', not 'gave him a hotfoot') for giving him lip. When Hercules grabbed his arm for that, Firelord then went 'How dare you touch me! No one touches me!' and presto, instant battle royal.

 

So, not exactly "Protective of Innocents, Common, Strong" here.

Oh, he got the standard introduction of a typical weighty super and then over time appeared less powerful.

 

And, in the comics I read, Firelord changed his perspective about human beings. There's an issue of Thor I remember reading where Firelord is hanging out being treated like a god in the Arabian peninsula. He dukes it out with Thor over a misunderstanding until Thor reasons with him. Interestingly, I can't remember him taking a hit from Mjolnir. What I remember is him blocking that hammer because he didn't want to get hit by it. And Thor seemed fairly in control of the situation even though the story obviously depicted Firelord as a credible threat.

 

Chuck's description of his introduction makes it sound like he would just wipe out Thor or Hercules with one of his firebolts if he felt like it.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Also borrowed a copy of THOR 246-247.

 

This is the Firelord vs. Thor knockdown.

 

Case in point -- through most of this book, Firelord is operating under a case of amnesia, having been inflicted on him by a sorceress (imaginatively named 'Gypsy' ) in the service of some grotty Central American revolutionaries. (Apparently, Galactus really skimped on the Mental Defense when assembling the Firelord model of Herald. Then again, the Surfer's had his own embarassing moments with Mind Control, and this same woman's mind control Focus was also able to Mind Control freaking Thor, so I shouldn't be too harsh.)

 

They were planning to use Firelord as a weapon to take over the banana republic they lived in. Needless to say, this is a plan that would have succeeded handily, had Thor not shown up and gone 'Firelord? What are you doing working with these guys? It doesn't seem like you for some reason.'

 

At any rate, Thor shows up and tries to reason with the guy, but Firelord has no idea who he is, and has his handlers yelling 'He's the enemy! Attack!' besides. So, in classic Marvel fashion, two protagonists are gonna spend pages and pages slamming each other in the face because one of them is amnesiac/mind-controlled/really hot-tempered/mistook the other one for a villain/trick of the light/the editor was bored/etc. But I digress again.

 

At any rate, THOR #246:

 

It leads off with both of them shooting energy blasts at the other. Since Mjolnir is really really really good with the absorbing and redirecting energy, the cosmic fire doesn't touch Thor. Likewise, Thor's godforce blast, not nudging Firelord. So, Thor takes it to melee range.

 

First shot, Thor gets Firelord a solid shot with Mjolnir right in the sternum, and does... Knockdown. That's it. Firelord gets right back up, fresh as a daisy, and whacks Thor over the head with his cosmic staff. Thor steps back and throws Mjolnir...

 

... and Firelord bats the incoming Mjolnir away like Mark McGwire swinging on a softball pitch. Mjolnir goes flying way way thataway off into the trees.

 

'Gypsy' then shows up and entrances Thor with her mind control gem as well. Issue ends.

 

THOR #247:

 

Thor and Firelord beat up on people until Jane Foster manages to get Gypsy's mind control gem away from her, and gives it to Firelord to smash. Freed from the mind control, the two titans then proceed to thrash the mooks most mightily. The end.

 

Fight between Thor and Firelord, not very long, admitted. But notice that Firelord was actually able to not merely bounce Mjolnir off his defenses like it was nothing, but actually /casually slap it out of the air/. Do you know what kind of strength it takes to redirect Mjolnir in flight against Thor's will?

 

Again, Spidey beat this?

For all the readers. Yes, Spider beat Firelord - for a moment. It appeared in a comic book. Spidey has also caused the Stranger to throw a fit as well.

 

Edit: I was wrong. Somehow I got it in my head from the last debate over the propriety of Spidey whipping Firelord that it was a momentary KO. - The problem with Chuck's argument is that he's not pointing out in the story that Firelord was dazed, not out for the count, and that Spider-Man was wasted. And that the cavalry showed up so that Firelord didn't continue the fight. He's built a Straw Man by ignoring the point that Spider-Man's beatdown of Firelord was momentary. - Edit: I was wrong. Somehow I got it in my head from the last debate over the propriety of Spidey whipping Firelord that it was a momentary KO.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Somebody PM'ed me to tell me that Agent X is accusing me of lying about the Spider-Man vs. Firelord fight. That Firelord was merely 'dazed', and that the Avengers showed up just in time to save Spidey's behind. That Spidey wasn't actually written as KO'ing the dude.

 

Attached is a scan of the last page of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #270. Feast your eyes on it and know who's actually lying, and who ain't.

 

Behold, my version of events -- that Firelord was out cold, and the sole role of the Avengers in this storyline was to act as Spidey's cheerleading section -- is 100% accurate.

 

And Agent X? *plonk* again. Say whatever you like behind my back this time... after having been caught red-handed once, nobody should believe you.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Somebody PM'ed me to tell me that Agent X is accusing me of lying about the Spider-Man vs. Firelord fight. That Firelord was merely 'dazed', and that the Avengers showed up just in time to save Spidey's behind. That Spidey wasn't actually written as KO'ing the dude.

 

Attached is a scan of the last page of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #270. Feast your eyes on it and know who's actually lying, and who ain't.

 

Behold, my version of events -- that Firelord was out cold, and the sole role of the Avengers in this storyline was to act as Spidey's cheerleading section -- is 100% accurate.

 

And Agent X? *plonk* again. Say whatever you like behind my back this time... after having been caught red-handed once, nobody should believe you.

Well, okay. I was misled.

 

It's a tad harsh to accuse someone of lying don't you think?

 

Wow, Firelord out for the count for a prolonged period of time. Didn't know Spidey had it in him.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wow' date=' Firelord out for the count for a prolonged period of time. Didn't know Spidey had it in him. [/quote']

Neither did anybody else, including several former and subsequent writers. That's the point.

 

I'm a great believer in the "Any given Sunday" principal, that it is possible, but unlikely, for the worst team in the league to beat the best team in the league. But this was more like a college juniro varsity going against an NFL team. Even if the NFL team was not be best in the league, even if it is the very best junior varsity team in the country, my money's going to be on the NFL team.

 

I said steaming pile of elephant dung, and I ment steaming pile of elephant dung.

 

Worst comic book superfight ever!

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, it was more like the Little League champion team going up against the 3rd or 4th-ranked team in the major leagues. Or a middle school championship basketball team taking on one of the middle-ranked teams in the NBA.

 

IOW, no way in hell unless the pro team is throwing the game. It doesn't matter how plucky those kids are, or how much they have the heart of a champion... they're hosed.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Neither did anybody else, including several former and subsequent writers. That's the point.

 

I'm a great believer in the "Any given Sunday" principal, that it is possible, but unlikely, for the worst team in the league to beat the best team in the league. But this was more like a college juniro varsity going against an NFL team. Even if the NFL team was not be best in the league, even if it is the very best junior varsity team in the country, my money's going to be on the NFL team.

 

I said steaming pile of elephant dung, and I ment steaming pile of elephant dung.

 

Worst comic book superfight ever!

I still disagree. I think you are underestimating Spider-Man, a guy who has been in quite a few cosmic conflicts.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I still disagree. I think you are underestimating Spider-Man' date=' a guy who has been in quite a few cosmic conflicts.[/quote']

And you are entitled to your opinion. We are, after all, argueing about a fictional character. It just strained my suspension of disbelief until it broke.

 

I read it when it first came out, over 20 years ago, doubt that I have read it since then, but it still is the one that lept to mind when the subject was "Worst comic book superfight ever." From this thread, many have equally strong feelings about that issue.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It occurred to me a little while ago that what's really being argued is "Does the Spidey/Firelord fight represent bad writing and shoddy characterization or not?" more than anything else. Same thing applies to the Deathstroke/JLA argument.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

With the exception of Firelord's extremely muddleheaded tactical choices, it's not 'out of character'. Spidey was entirely in-character throughout, I thought. His motivations and the actions he attempted were exactly how Spidey would face an impossible challenge.

 

The bad writing lies in the fact that the actions Spidey attempted *worked*, when Firelord's effortlessly withstood things far more cosmic than a mere exploding building, or the pollution of the East River, or Spider-Man's "no holding back" punch. So, out of character, not so much, but bad writing, very much so.

 

I yet again make the comparision with the Daredevil vs. Namor fight, which the Spidey-vs-Firelord fight was trying to do an homage to... what made the story work so powerfully then was that Daredevil entirely *lost* the physical confrontation, and yet the mere heights of daring that he'd ascended in *trying*, however unsuccessfully, is what made Namor yield in respect. Respect, and nothing more.

 

Firelord, otoh, merely got punked out by the writer.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm a great believer in the "Any given Sunday" principal' date=' that it is [i']possible[/i], but unlikely, for the worst team in the league to beat the best team in the league. But this was more like a college juniro varsity going against an NFL team. Even if the NFL team was not be best in the league, even if it is the very best junior varsity team in the country, my money's going to be on the NFL team.

 

More like a Pop Warner League team vs. an NFL team.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Actually, it was more like the Little League champion team going up against the 3rd or 4th-ranked team in the major leagues. Or a middle school championship basketball team taking on one of the middle-ranked teams in the NBA.

 

IOW, no way in hell unless the pro team is throwing the game. It doesn't matter how plucky those kids are, or how much they have the heart of a champion... they're hosed.

 

 

Heh. Serves me right for replying as I went rather than reading through.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Behold, my version of events -- that Firelord was out cold, and the sole role of the Avengers in this storyline was to act as Spidey's cheerleading section -- is 100% accurate.

 

That's not exactly true. I haven't read it, but Avengers #258 has the aftermath of the Spidey/Firelord fight. The Avengers took him into custody.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That's not exactly true. I haven't read it' date=' but Avengers #258 has the aftermath of the Spidey/Firelord fight. The Avengers took him into custody.[/quote']

 

That last page of ASM 270 is pretty definitive. If Firelord woke up later (which presumably he would sometime, him not being dead or anything), it was /enough/ later to count as a clean KO for Spidey, not merely a 'dazed'. I mean, you have Cap flat-out *saying* to Spidey that Firelord is "out cold", while the Avengers all form a cheering section, what more do you need?

 

(edit) Found my copy of Avengers 258. Firelord is out cold the entire time that the Avengers are talking to Spidey. He's still out cold when Spidey leaves the scene. He doesn't wake up until the narrative has shifted to the medical bay in Avengers Mansion, and the caption specifically says "Later..."

 

'Dazed' my comics-reading butt. What I said was *entirely* true, one hundred point zero zero percent, and the reason I'm not calling you a liar along with Agent X is because you haven't tried to call *me* one on this issue. (I'm accepting 'not exactly true' as a statement of alleged inaccuracy, not alleged malicious intent.) So from you, I'm willing to accept it was an honest mistake. Him? He throws around stuff like 'misleading' and 'straw man' when I'm actually the one telling it straight and he's getting it all backwards... aggggh!

 

At any rate, it's *entirely* true.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

'Dazed' my comics-reading butt. What I said was *entirely* true, one hundred point zero zero percent, and the reason I'm not calling you a liar along with Agent X is because you haven't tried to call *me* one on this issue. (I'm accepting 'not exactly true' as a statement of alleged inaccuracy, not alleged malicious intent.) So from you, I'm willing to accept it was an honest mistake. Him? He throws around stuff like 'misleading' and 'straw man' when I'm actually the one telling it straight and he's getting it all backwards... aggggh!

 

At any rate, it's *entirely* true.

 

Except the part about the Avengers, which is what I meant to address. The Avengers did have a larger role in the storyline than that of Spidey's cheerleading squad, as you put it. They had an issue centered on it.

[CBikle]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I wonder what ChuckG does for a living.

 

Y'know, besides the message board thing.