Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> How experienced was Firelord?

 

Nova had been a Herald for literally less than ten minutes when she hit Throneworld, so, the answer is 'about a million times more experienced than her'. Which was my point.

 

[snip]

> And whoever said Nova was less powerful than Firelord?

 

Nova, Firelord, and the Silver Surfer, to name three. In every Herald team-up ever, Nova has always acknowledged herself as the anchor girl. (The original Air-Walker was more powerful than her.The Air-Walker automaton, which had been defunct for years before she came on the scene, was less powerful. In my prior arguments, I was referring to the automaton.)

 

Add -- new data point. Having gone back and looked, Pyreus "Firelord" Kril was a member of the Xandarian Nova Corps *before* becoming a Herald. Which knocks your 'she had powers, he didn't' argument right on the head. Not only did he have powers, but using Nova as a benchmark, he should have been capable of fighting Spidey on roughly even terms *before* the Power Cosmic kicked in.

 

> If Nova "won" soley because the Navy ran away without engaging she realy

> didn't need any power to win, did she? SpiderMan would also defeat the

> Skrull Navy if they went "Heavens forfend - it's an Earthling! They always

> defeat us - FLEE FLEE FLEE"

 

 

Are you seriously claiming that the Skrull Navy would run away from Spider-Man? This argument gets heated enough, we don't need ridiculous reductio ad absurdums clouding the issue even further.

 

A list of Earth superheroes that the Skrulls *don't* run away from includes the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and for that matter, most of everybody else.

 

But the entire Skrull Navy will take just one look at a Herald of Galactus -- *any* Herald, even the new one who got made a Herald literally less than ten minutes ago -- and run for their freakin' lives, abandoning their homeworld to death in the process. (note -- it's been years since I read the comic, so I am uncertain if they just looked at her and ran away, or if they tried to fight her and then the survivors ran away. Either way, it doesn't change the point I'm making.)

 

Clear implication -- Heralds of Galactus pose a dire threat to entire starfleets.

 

Corollary -- A Herald losing to Spider-Man is ridiculous.

 

(add) The one case I know of a Herald of Galactus losing to starships in space combat was when the Ovoids killed the original Air-Walker, and not only was their power level entirely unknown (as the Ovoids have never been on-stage), but neither was the # of casualties they suffered in the doing. (AAMOF, the only other mention of the Ovoids in Marvel comics, ever, is that they're the guys who taught the mind-soul-etc.-transfer technique to Doctor Doom.)

 

> In any case, taking out the Skrull Navy would likely involve those high powered AoE attacks that

> Firelord's honor demanded he refrain from when fighting Spidey.

 

I don't remember him saying this, either. AAMOF, I seem to recall Firelord going 'arrogant insect, I will smite you for your affronts!' and suchlike.

 

> Firelord's refusal to fight like a wargamer cost him the battle.

 

(add) See above re: 'former member of Xandarian Nova Corps'.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Some other crappy fights that I remember are from the original Contest of Champions books...those were silly.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Some of them were pretty good, however. Dracula vs. Dr. Druid is a memory I will treasure, as was Captain America vs. Mockingbird.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If Nova "won" soley because the Navy ran away without engaging she really didn't need any power to win' date=' did she? SpiderMan would also defeat the Skrull Navy if they went "Heavens forfend - it's an Earthling! They always defeat us - FLEE FLEE FLEE"[/quote']

 

 

Are you seriously claiming that the Skrull Navy would run away from Spider-Man? This argument gets heated enough, we don't need ridiculous reductio ad absurdums clouding the issue even further.

 

No. I am suggesting that, if the Skrull Navy chose to flee from Nova solely because she IS a Herald of Galactus, rather than engage her in combat, their flight proves nothing whatsoever about Nova's combat abilities. It just proves that a reputation as a Herald of Galactus means you win by default, so a fancy light show and a "Herald of the Big G" badge is all you really need.

 

YOU were the one who suggested it was unclear whether the Skrull Navy made any actual attempt to stop Nova, rather than fleeing for the sole reason she is a Herald of Galactus, with no actual proof THIS hHerald had any real power.

 

But the entire Skrull Navy will take just one look at a Herald of Galactus -- *any* Herald' date=' even the new one who got made a Herald literally less than ten minutes ago -- and run for their freakin' lives, [b']abandoning their homeworld to death in the process[/b].

 

Clear implication -- Heralds of Galactus pose a dire threat to entire starfleets.

 

No. Clear implication: The Skrull Navy commanders BELIEVE all Heralds of Galactus pose a dire threat to entire starfleets. It doesn't mean this particular one does pose such a threat, it only means the perception of the Skrulls that she does pose such a threat results in their being unwilling to test the reality.

 

Many people believe all role playing gamers wear funny hats, never bathe, have no real life and dwell in their parents' basements. Similar beliefs exist in regards to adults who enjoy/read/collect comic books. These perceptions are not reality (in all cases, anyway), but that doesn't stop such people from classifying anyone who expresses an interest in RPG's as a geek.

 

Corollary -- A Herald losing to Spider-Man is ridiculous.

 

In Chuckg's opinion. Many have different opinions, and once again your perception of ridiculousness does not change the reality that other opinions can also be valid. Given this story has stood for 20 years or so, Marvel appears not to consider it ridiculous or, if they do, not sufficiently probelmatic that they need to retcon it away (like, for example, Hercules towing the Island of Manhattan).

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No. I am suggesting that' date=' if the Skrull Navy chose to flee from Nova solely because she IS a Herald of Galactus, rather than engage her in combat, their flight proves nothing whatsoever about Nova's combat abilities. It just proves that a reputation as a Herald of Galactus means you win by default, so a fancy light show and a "Herald of the Big G" badge is all you really need.[/quote']

 

... and precisely how do you think that the Heralds of Galactus *GOT* this reputation? Hiring Funky Flashman as their press agent? /sarcasm

 

Are you credibly suggesting that they do /not/ have the power to engage starfleets and win, they merely have bamboozled the entire universe into /thinking/ that they have? If so, again.

 

I might also point out that you have missed something -- since Nova had at that point been a Herald of Galactus for less than ten minutes, and since the Throneworld was the first alien world she visited ever after leaving Earth, precisely how did they know she *was* a Herald of Galactus? At that time, she had no reputation whatsoever. As far as the universe knew that day, Galactus' current herald was Firelord (as he was the Herald before her, save for a brief interregnum with the Asgardian Destroyer automaton.)

 

Answer -- they took one look at the energy readings she was giving off, noted the presence of the Power Cosmic and in what intensity, and right then knew their odds of victory -- zero.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Add -- new data point. Having gone back and looked' date=' Pyreus "Firelord" Kril was a member of the Xandarian Nova Corps *before* becoming a Herald. Which knocks your 'she had powers, he didn't' argument right on the head. Not only did he have powers, but using Nova as a benchmark, he should have been capable of fighting Spidey on roughly even terms *before* the Power Cosmic kicked in.[/quote']

 

Frankie Raye had been a member of the Fantastic Four, and was therefore not lacking in combat experience. And where did Firelord's Nova powers go? It's pretty well established in Nova canon that these powers can be taken away if the Xandarian Corps deems fit - would they leave them in the hands of a Herald of Galactus?

 

I don't remember him saying this, either. AAMOF, I seem to recall Firelord going 'arrogant insect, I will smite you for your affronts!' and suchlike.

 

> Firelord's refusal to fight like a wargamer cost him the battle.

 

(add) See above re: 'former member of Xandarian Nova Corps'.

 

I DO recall Firelord never once using a large area attack, which he was perfectly capable of doing. He chose not to endanger anyone but his target (consistent with the psychological limitations relevant to a 'former member of Xandarian Nova Corps', although I believe he had no memory of his prior life at the time), and as a result failed to use the attacks which would have been most devestating on his target, since Spidey's only real defense was avoiding the shots.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Answer -- they took one look at the energy readings she was giving off' date=' noted the presence of the Power Cosmic and in what intensity, and right then knew their odds of victory -- zero.[/quote']

 

Pretty clever for an alien race that was fooledby cutout pictures from Marvel Monster comic books, huh?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW, the pattern consistently exists all throughout Marvel Comics -- when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs. Part of that is because they know that where a Herald goes, Galactus often follows... but the personal power of his Heralds has proven sufficient to wreck fleets before Galactus has even gotten there. With the aforementioned Ovoid exemption, I can't remember any of the contenders who have chosen 'Plan Stick Around And Fight It Out' ending up in any condition other than 'random debris floating in space'.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Frankie Raye had been a member of the Fantastic Four, and was therefore

> not lacking in combat experience. And where did Firelord's Nova powers go?

> It's pretty well established in Nova canon that these powers can be taken

> away if the Xandarian Corps deems fit - would they leave them in the hands

> of a Herald of Galactus?

 

Do they possess the power to take those powers away against Galactus' will? The answer to any remotely sane individual is "No."

 

> I DO recall Firelord never once using a large area attack, which he was

> perfectly capable of doing.

 

... and I already admitted that.

 

I disagree with you as to *why* he never used it, however. You take the position that it was a reasonable outgrowth of his Psychological Limitations against harming innocent life.

 

I, OTOH, point out that such Psychological Limitations are absolutely inconsistent with being a Herald of Galactus at all, seeing as how the entire purpose of a Herald is to facilitate planetary genocide.

 

The Silver Surfer quit his job the instant he rediscovered his ethical code (and it was later revealed that the only reason he'd lost it is because Galactus had given his brain a little 'nudge'.) All other contestants were racists entirely indifferent to the fate of races other than their own (Air-Walker, Firelord, Nova) or flat-out psychotic murderers (Terrax, Morg).

 

(add -- when the Surfer finally convinced Nova of the wrongness of what she was doing, she stopped leading Galactus to planets that had sentient life on them. When that strategy failed, he replaced her with Morg. When Morg betrayed him, Galactus explored other options, even to the point of trying to find ways not to have to feed on planets at all (see the cancelled THANOS monthly).

 

> He chose not to endanger anyone but his target (consistent with the

> psychological limitations relevant to a 'former member of Xandarian Nova

> Corps', [snip]

 

I might point out that the Air-Walker and Firelord were /both/ former members of the Xandarian Nova Corps -- and both of them accepted the position of Herald willingly, knowing that their job would be genocide.

 

Apparently, either the average member of the Nova Corps is actually a heartless dick, or else they were both significantly amoral by the standards of their peers. (The latter possibility is not as far-fetched as it would seem -- Air-Walker and Firelord not only served together in the Nova Corps, but Gabriel Lan was Pyreus Kril's old mentor.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> It's pretty well established in Nova canon that these powers can be taken

> away if the Xandarian Corps deems fit - would they leave them in the hands

> of a Herald of Galactus?

 

Do they possess the power to take those powers away against Galactus' will? The answer to any remotely sane individual is "No."

 

Does Galactus care for the actions of lesser beings? Why would he care whether the Xandarian Nova Corps left Firelord's status or removed it, Nova powers and all?

 

> I DO recall Firelord never once using a large area attack, which he was

> perfectly capable of doing.

 

... and I already admitted that.

 

I disagree with you as to *why* he never used it, however. You take the position that it was a reasonable outgrowth of his Psychological Limitations against harming innocent life.

 

Then why didn't he? You've provided lots of rationalization for his not being constrained by any respect for innocent life, but no reason why he won't incinerate a city block to wipe out an annoyance.

 

I' date=' OTOH, point out that such Psychological Limitations are absolutely inconsistent with being a Herald of Galactus at all, seeing as how [b']the entire purpose of a Herald is to facilitate planetary genocide[/b].

 

The Silver Surfer quit his job the instant he rediscovered his ethical code (and it was later revealed that the only reason he'd lost it is because Galactus had given his brain a little 'nudge'.) All other contestants were racists entirely indifferent to the fate of races other than their own (Air-Walker, Firelord, Nova) or flat-out psychotic murderers (Terrax).

 

Yet the Avengers took Firelord in, and Thor recognized his inherent nobility. How consistent is this with a willingness, even eagerness, to facilitate planetary genocide.

 

My recollection is that Galactus wiped out both Airwalker and Firelord's memories of their past lives - similar reasons, perhaps?

 

I might point out that the Air-Walker and Firelord were /both/ former members of the Xandarian Nova Corps -- and both of them accepted the position of Herald willingly' date=' knowing that their job would be genocide. [/quote']

 

As did Norrin Radd, despite his moral code. I don't recall Air-Walker's rationale, but I do seem to recall Firelord's was the offer for an opportunity to avenge Gabriel Lan's death.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Does Galactus care for the actions of lesser beings? Why would he care

> whether the Xandarian Nova Corps left Firelord's status or removed it, Nova

> powers and all?

 

Because his Heralds are *his* Heralds. Galactus hates it when other people touch his stuff, whether he needs it or not. Remember, we're talking about a guy who throws people out of his ship to fall screaming and in flames from orbit, without a parachute, just because they walked inside his ship.

 

> Then why didn't he?

 

Bad writing. That's the point we've been trying to make all along.

 

> You've provided lots of rationalization for his not being

> constrained by any respect for innocent life, but no reason why he won't

> incinerate a city block to wipe out an annoyance.

 

That's the problem. The writer didn't give us any rationalization for it either. He simply had it happen.

 

This is one of the reasons *why* we consider the fight to have been stupidly written. Firelord deliberately held back from using options that he had absolutely no rational in-character or in-story reason to hold back from using, and he did it solely so that the writer could help hand Spidey the win. Hence, "Jobbing". This is the very *definition* of jobbing.

 

> Yet the Avengers took Firelord in, and Thor recognized his inherent nobility.

> How consistent is this with a willingness, even eagerness, to facilitate

> planetary genocide.

 

It's not -- and yet, the fact that Heralds of Galactus are, one and all, accomplices in planetary genocide is absolutely beyond question, seeing as how their entire purpose in comics is to find worlds for Galactus to eat, and very often, those worlds have been inhabited.

 

Hell, that's how the Silver Surfer first showed up in comics, remember? Earth was on the menu.

 

The Surfer, at least, can claim that he was mentally manipulated by Galactus... Galactus eventually confessed to doing so. The other Heralds have no such recourse. (edit -- save for those who may have been memory-wiped.)

 

> My recollection is that Galactus wiped out both Airwalker and Firelord's

> memories of their past lives - similar reasons, perhaps?

 

Possibly -- but if true, all that means is that they go on the 'mentally manipulated' pile with the Surfer. Which does nicer things for their karma, but still does absolutely nothing to disprove the fact that Firelord simply not nuking the hell out of Spidey was bad, implausible writing.

 

> As did Norrin Radd, despite his moral code.

 

Norrin did so to save his homeworld from being eaten by Galactus -- and with the announced intention of leading Galactus *only* to uninhabited worlds. Galactus' losing patience with how much extra time that was taking is why he mentally manipulated the Surfer into changing his mind about the 'uninhabited' part.

 

> I don't recall Air-Walker's rationale,

 

IIRC, to prevent Galactus from consuming Xandar -- but unlike Norrin Radd, he didn't tell Galactus 'but I'm only doing this so I can find worlds for you to eat that don't have people on them'.

 

> but I do seem to recall Firelord's was the offer for an opportunity to avenge

> Gabriel Lan's death.

 

Not so much to avenge his death but to find out his old mentor's fate, yes.

 

Note, however, Galactus has never pretended to his Heralds what their job would be -- he tells them flat-out that their role is to go find him tasty dinner snacks.

[McCoy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As did Norrin Radd' date=' despite his moral code. I don't recall Air-Walker's rationale, but I do seem to recall Firelord's was the offer for an opportunity to avenge Gabriel Lan's death.[/quote']

I thought both Air-Walker and Firelord became Heralds to take Xandar off the menu, same as Silver Surfer did for Zenn-la and Nova did for Earth.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

*googles, looks up history of characters*

 

Actually, no.

 

Gabriel "Air-Walker" Lan was the commanding officer of a Xandarian deep-space exploration ship, with Pyreus "Firelord" Kril as his first officer. They bumped into Galactus' world-ship way out in space, away from Xandar, and Galactus (who was needing a Herald at that time) teleported Gabriel onto his ship and offered him the job. Gabriel Lan, offered vast power, immortality, and the chance to explore space and indulge his wanderlust far more widely than he could do as a Xandarian exploration vessel commander, jumped at the job. Galactus turned him into his Herald and took off, without either of them even bothering to leave a message.

 

Meanwhile, back on the ship, the only thing Pyreus Kril knew was that his mentor and CO had been kidnapped by this strange alien vessel. So off he went trying to find him again, like Ahab with his own Galactus-sized white whale. He caught up to Galactus' ship only years later, after the Air-Walker was already dead. Since Galactus needed a Herald again at this time (Air-Walker being gone, and the Air-Walker automaton replacement having been trashed by the Surfer), he offered Pyreus Kril the job, offering in return to reveal the location and fate of Gabriel Lan if he accepted. To find out what happened to his beloved commander and friend, Pyreus accepted.

 

So, apparently, neither of them took the job to save Xandar. Galactus done gone nowhere near the place.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Because his Heralds are *his* Heralds. Galactus hates it when other people touch his stuff' date=' whether he needs it or not. Remember, we're talking about a guy who throws people out of his ship to fall screaming and in flames from orbit, without a parachute, just because they walked inside his ship.[/quote']

 

"Much as you would flick away an ant, for to Galactus, we are all less than ants". He doesn't do this out of malice, cruelty or spite. He doesn't (at least at that point in his existence) acknowledge that these little, unevolved beings merit any consideration. He doesn't care - so he doesn't care whether a Xandarian keeps his Nova Corps powers.

 

[begs the question why he keeps grabbing heralds, though - it's like me hiring an ant to do my grocery shopping.]

 

Bad writing. That's the point we've been trying to make all along.

 

That's your contention. Others see it as a code of honour, and the beginning of a resurfacing of his more noble character (a necessity if he's to be taken as being on the side of the angels in future).

 

The Surfer' date=' at least, can claim that he was mentally manipulated by Galactus... Galactus eventually confessed to doing so. The other Heralds have no such recourse. (edit -- save for those who may have been memory-wiped.)[/quote']

 

When he snagged Terrax, Galactus specifically noted the problem with his prior heralds was that they had been men of honor and nobility. He had needed to mentally manipulate them, and they eventually slipped those bonds.

 

Possibly -- but if true' date=' all that means is that they go on the 'mentally manipulated' pile with the Surfer. Which does nicer things for their karma, but still does absolutely nothing to disprove the fact that Firelord simply not nuking the hell out of Spidey was bad, implausible writing.[/quote']

 

Or the slipping of his mental programming. We don't have any details of what went on when Firelord was out in space between his earliest appearances.

 

Note' date=' however, Galactus has never pretended to his Heralds what their job would be -- he tells them flat-out that their role is to go find him tasty dinner snacks.[/quote']

 

Which they could all rationalize in the same way Norrin Radd did ("I'll only lead him to worlds devoid of life").

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Gabriel "Air-Walker" Lan was the commanding officer of a Xandarian deep-space exploration ship, with Pyreus "Firelord" Kril as his first officer. They bumped into Galactus' world-ship way out in space, away from Xandar, and Galactus (who was needing a Herald at that time) teleported Gabriel onto his ship and offered him the job. Gabriel Lan, offered vast power, immortality, and the chance to explore space and indulge his wanderlust far more widely than he could do as a Xandarian exploration vessel commander, jumped at the job. Galactus turned him into his Herald and took off, without either of them even bothering to leave a message.

 

Meanwhile, back on the ship, the only thing Pyreus Kril knew was that his mentor and CO had been kidnapped by this strange alien vessel. So off he went trying to find him again, like Ahab with his own Galactus-sized white whale. He caught up to Galactus' ship only years later, after the Air-Walker was already dead. Since Galactus needed a Herald again at this time (Air-Walker being gone, and the Air-Walker automaton replacement having been trashed by the Surfer), he offered Pyreus Kril the job, offering in return to reveal the location and fate of Gabriel Lan if he accepted. To find out what happened to his beloved commander and friend, Pyreus accepted.

 

So, apparently, neither of them took the job to save Xandar. Galactus done gone nowhere near the place.

 

That does jog my memory. And, as deep space explorers (not soldiers), I don't recall them having Nova - type powers (or even buckethead helmets, poor suckers! ) If they had enugh "Nova-Power" to dole out to every explorer captain, they wouldn't have missed the one iota used to power Richard Ryder, and taken it back when he first returned to Earth.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The worst comic book superfight ever?

 

Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe.

 

'Nuff Said, True Believer's.

 

That one was a What If, right?

 

I seem to recall the Punisher wacking Doc Doom with ease (sends an electric charge through his armor, causing it to freeze up, and then smashes Doom's head in with multiple blows from a sledgehammer), killing all the Marvel mutants, capping Captain America with a holdout piece, and taking the Hulk down with one-shot sniper tactics.

 

And oh yes, he committed suicide in the end to the words: "Not all the supers are dead... (puts pistol to temple) There's still one left."

 

Also, if I remember right, everything started when the X-Men and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants started a superbattle in the park where his family was eating. They became "collateral damage", and an irate Frank blows away several mutants from both sides before getting clawed by Wolvey. Or something like that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> [begs the question why he keeps grabbing heralds, though - it's like me

> hiring an ant to do my grocery shopping.]

 

Answered in a recent FANTASTIC FOUR arc. Galactus uses Heralds because his own enhanced perceptions are *too* cosmic for day-to-day use... in game terms, he has trouble scaling his MegaScale down far enough to let him be an effective planetary scout. His modes of perception apparently have no range in-between 'squinting at the ant standing directly in front of me' and 'so damn cosmic I have trouble narrowing it down to just one planet at a time.'

 

Hence, he recruits autonomous scouts, just cosmically powerful enough to blow through almost any 'ants' that might obstruct them, but still mortal enough that they're not blinded by the macro-scale of the cosmic all, or whatever the rationale was.

 

[snip]

> Or the slipping of his mental programming.

 

Whether or not he even /had/ mental programming is a point still in doubt. The only memory that Galactus is /known/ to have wiped from Firelord was that concerning the existence and use of the Air-Walker automaton. The rest of his life...?

 

> We don't have any details of what went on when Firelord was out in space

> between his earliest appearances.

 

Which means you are not free to assume that anything changed from Firelord's last known /status quo/. Admitting that you lack any evidence is helluva way to try and prove a point.

[starblaze]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Out of morbid curiousity, why was Firelord and SpiderMan fighting each other in the first place?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Firelord came to Earth because he wanted a pizza.

 

... no, I am not kidding, that is actually what happened. Firelord, for reasons known only to the writer, flew to Earth to get some pizza. He landed, walked into a diner, and the owner thought he was facing an 'evil mutant!' (yes, anti-mutant hysteria was crossing over into a Spidey book, yay) and pulled a shotgun on him. While Firelord was busy melting the shotgun out of the guy's hands(*), Spider-Man swung by, and since we all know that Spidey's all about the mutant hating (sarcasm alert), he immediately believed the shopkeeper's panicked rendition of 'evil mutant attack!' and leapt into action!

 

At this point, Firelord got very upset with the whole 'everybody attacking him when he just wanted a g-d slice of pizza' business and hence, the battle royale.

 

This should give you an idea of just how seriously and with how much forethought and sagacity the writer was approaching this issue.

 

 

 

 

(*) As opposed to blowing the guy into carbon ash, which you'd think would be more in-character, as this was back when Firelord was still a villain. But hey, we've already mentioned the part where the writer was on crack, so...

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Looking for consistency in comics is a mug's game.

 

However, going beyond an analysis of their powers (Spidey's incredibly fast, the Heralds' Power Cosmic allows them to manipulate almost anything at will, including the ability to hit things that are incredibly fast, like spaceships travelling at FTL), the writers who best understand and utilize the Heralds best (ie. Kirby) have them do so at a mythic level at which Spider-Man at his best doesn't touch; Spidey's thematic strength is that he's grounded in his human foibles and fights on a more human level than Marvel's heavyhitters

 

The Heralds are essentially the archangels of Kirby's Galactus God-myth (with the Surfer taking on Christ overtones as well). How much more obvious does the analogy need to be than Gabriel? Having Firelord serve as a "jobber" (to put it in rasslin' terms) essentially makes Spider-Man Marvel's equivalent of Batgod, with obnoxiously unquenchable pluck substutiting for obnoxiously frightening competence. If Spider-Man were to be beat a Herald, he should do so not because the angels are wimps, but because humanity is clever and/or demonstrably worthy of the angels' respect.

You stacked the deck here. We can't simply limit ourselves to Kirby's view, for one thing Kirby's view was never the pre-eminent force at Marvel. For another, it just doesn't make sense since he didn't continue to write every story that the Heralds of Galactus showed up in.

 

Spider-Man has routinely been written as a character with many insecurities who usually doesn't tap his true potential.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, but unless his 'true potential' is supposed to be in a range circa Warrior Madness Thor or an enraged Hulk, that still isn't *enough*.

 

Like the man said, let's not go 'SpideyGod' here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yes, but unless his 'true potential' is supposed to be in a range circa Warrior Madness Thor or an enraged Hulk, that still isn't *enough*.

 

Like the man said, let's not go 'SpideyGod' here.

 

It's been enough to defeat Titania and the Rhino (who have convincingly gone one on one with Thor and the Hulk, respectively). I believe, in the last thread to discuss this issue, a series of "way more powerful than him" foes Spidey has taken out when he stopped holding back was listed. Firelord is far from the only "out of his league" opponent Spidey has beaten in his history.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Chuckg, thanks for reminding us of the "literary genius" that prompted the fight. I think I'd removed that memory from my brain with a scalpel.

 

[RANT] On a side note, I like Pizza. I like it a lot. I was born in Chicago, and raised in NYC. I've had literally hundreds of different types of pizza. All of that said, if I was cruising around space with the power cosmic, and as a former officer from a semi-elitist group like the Xandarians, I don't think I'd want to grab a slice at the local Ray's Pizza. I mean, come one, our rich people on Earth don't start clamoring for Eduardo's or Michael's or Ray's, so why is there this habitual trend in comics to glorify pizza as if it is the most divine creation of mankind? Can we please get off of the dietary habits of the writer here? Now, Firelord coming here and liking chateubriand, or caviar, or whole lobster or something other than a freakin' slice...I guess he just hit the skids after he lost the heralding gig? [/RANT]

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It's been enough to defeat Titania and the Rhino [...]

 

... who are nowhere near the Power Cosmic. I mean, sheesh, Captain America has punched out the Rhino. And while Cap is Cap, if his maximum strength punch can KO someone, then Thor's love tap should have sent 'em sprawling at the first blow. And given the handful that Titania has proven to be to She-Hulk, even the Titania fight I find somewhat less than convincing, although nowhere near the full gaping insanity of Spider-Man-vs-Firelord.

 

The fact that Spider-Man has a jobber aura that's handed him lots of wins, not in dispute. Whether or not handing him all those wins was good or believable writing, *definitely* a point in dispute.

 

(add) -- I just remembered an example of Spidey trying his absolute all-out best, no holding back, pushed Haymaker time -- and /failing/.

 

When he went up against the Abomination, in the "Atlantis Attacks" crossover.

 

Spidey threw his absolute best punch, full-on desperate and no holding back (his internal narration specifically mentioned 'gotta put everything I have into this one. big. blow!'), so hard that he hurt his hand, for a result of...

 

"Oh, swell. I think I made him /blink!/" (and this is a direct quote)

 

Spidey then started aborting to dodge a lot.

 

So, we have at least one data point to suss out the upper range of Spider-Man, when he's *not* holding back, and it's... significantly less than a calm Hulk, or Hercules, or even She-Hulk (as all three of them can at least knock the Abomination off his feet if they haymaker him).

[Susano]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Found this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Book_Rumbles

 

and I quote:

 

Spider-man versus Firelord Exemption

Spider-Man vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Wolverine surviving a nuclear explosion is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers. The term is named from an infamous comic story in which Spider-Man defeated the aforementioned herald of Galactus.

 

For standard CBR fights, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Mike Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.

 

Controversy of the Spider-Man versus Firelord Exemption

In the history of the Comic Book Rumbles board, several posters have attempted to challenge the title case of Spider-Man versus Firelord being a case of a character's established past showings being contracted. As of this moment, none of these challenges were successful, and it is doubtful any will be in the future.

 

A popular argument tactic for this challenge is bringing up times when Spider-Man has beaten stronger oponents, absolutely none of which are anywhere close to comparable to a Herald of Galactus, which is where this tactic falls down.

 

Oh, and I note:

"The thread was started by Chuckg..."

 

One and the same?