Worst comic book superfight ever

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Found this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Book_Rumbles

 

and I quote:

 

 

 

Oh, and I note:

"The thread was started by Chuckg..."

 

One and the same?

the end section on "Regarding Dragonball Z" was especially amusing...

[Susano]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

the end section on "Regarding Dragonball Z" was especially amusing...

 

Oh, it's easy... given sufficient time, Son Goku beats anyone.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Found this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Book_Rumbles

 

and I quote:

 

Oh, and I note:

"The thread was started by Chuckg..."

 

One and the same?

 

Yup. Comic Book Rumbles is a message board I've been on since before it was hosted on the cbr.com domain, or called 'Comic Book Rumbles' for that matter. If you really need to know more, the poster who is named 'CBR Watcher' on the herogames forums is the same 'Watcher' who is the moderator of the Rumbles board.

 

Although the wiki entry on us isn't entirely accurate, as it's not an official project of the board. There was also an instance a while back of where some people who were upset about them or friends of them having been banned from Rumbles tried inserting phony stuff in the entries, as is often a popular sport on Wikipedia. Since the Rumbles moderating staff considers the wiki outside their jurisdiction, and most of the board regulars don't *need* the wiki to know what's going on (that's why we're regulars, natch ), the sabotage often goes undetected.

 

Heck, depsite you just linking me to the wiki, I ain't gonna audit it -- it would take too long.

 

(add -- however, the section re: Spider-Man-vs-Firelord, that you blockquoted, appears accurate.)

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW' date=' the pattern consistently exists all throughout Marvel Comics -- when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs. Part of that is because they know that where a Herald goes, Galactus often follows... but the personal power of his Heralds has proven sufficient to wreck fleets before Galactus has even gotten there. With the aforementioned Ovoid exemption, I can't remember any of the contenders who have chosen 'Plan Stick Around And Fight It Out' ending up in any condition other than 'random debris floating in space'.[/quote'] There is also a consistent pattern of defeat for Heralds of Galactus other than Silver Surfer.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh' date=' it's easy... given sufficient time, Son Goku beats anyone.[/quote']

I got into it with Champsguy one time by positing Krillin as capable of beating up Superman:D

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

There is also a consistent pattern of defeat for Heralds of Galactus other than Silver Surfer.

 

This is a meaningless statement unless we know who defeated them and under what circumstances.

 

I mean, I could point out that there is a 'consistent pattern of defeat' for Thanos when he's omnipotent. And that would be a completely true statement. Thanos has never emerged the victor from any story arc where he's attained multiversal omnipotence.

 

This would not, however, in any way prove that either Thanos or the Infinity Gauntlet (or the Heart of the Universe, or etc.) weren't insanely, insanely, powerful. Because they are. AAMOF, they pretty much define the concept of 'vastly overpowered'.

 

(add) Or hey, here's another guy with a 'consistent pattern of defeat'. Korvac. Guy hasn't won one in forever and a day. Does this mean Spidey can defeat Korvac? Not in any story that was composed without the aid of hallucinogenic drugs. Korvac is freakin' *beyond* Herald powerful, comparing to Galactus himself at the higher points of his power curve. His defeats all came via means other than being outpowered by the heroes. And it still took a LOT of heroes.

 

(add) Or how's about the Celestials? They usually don't fight, but when they do, they lose. Repeatedly. Of course, that's because unless it's something like Galactus or the Beyonder, they're not fighting, but hey, let's just leave that part out and only talk about their 'consistent pattern of defeat'.

 

(add) Speaking of the Beyonder, this guy's left every storyline he's ever been in a loser. Sure, he wins some early matches, but come denouement time, every time, down he's gone. Guess he must be somebody Spidey can whip then. /sarcasm

 

The point is, "consistent pattern of defeat" logic is a very perilous thing to use in judging comics characters... especially antagonists. You have to keep in mind *how* they were defeated and by *who*, not just note that they were defeated, blank.

 

The only reason Heralds other than the Surfer have a 'consistent pattern of defeat' is because they are usually used either as a) villains or the Surfer's sidekicks. Both roles mean they suck the mat when it comes storytelling time, regardless of power level. (And usually, involves them losing to cosmic villains that give even the Surfer trouble.)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I got into it with Champsguy one time by positing Krillin as capable of beating up Superman:D

 

Hey, I'll agree that Goku or Vegeta could paste any version of Superman except the Silver Age, planet-juggling, completely ridiculous 'even the Wrath of God jobs to me' Superman.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hey' date=' I'll agree that Goku or Vegeta could paste any version of Superman except the Silver Age, planet-juggling, completely ridiculous 'even the Wrath of God jobs to me' Superman. [/quote']

I just tweaked him a little by suggesting Goku's pint-sized "human" no-nosed sparring partner sidekick could school Iron Age Kal-el, 2 out of 3 falls:)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I just tweaked him a little by suggesting Goku's pint-sized "human" no-nosed sparring partner sidekick could school Iron Age Kal-el' date=' 2 out of 3 falls:)[/quote']

 

Depends on which era. Superman's had a significant increase in power even if we just consider Post-Crisis Superman. Compare Superman at the start of the Byrne run to the guy who's been showing up in JLA comics the last few years, and, well, somebody's definitely been spending a *LOT* of earned XP in the meanwhile.

 

The Byrne Superman, you'd have a pretty good case.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Depends on which era. Superman's had a significant increase in power even if we just consider Post-Crisis Superman. Compare Superman at the start of the Byrne run to the guy who's been showing up in JLA comics the last few years, and, well, somebody's definitely been spending a *LOT* of earned XP in the meanwhile.

 

The Byrne Superman, you'd have a pretty good case.

My argument boiled down to little K having enough ability to do damage(he wrecks tanks and smashes huge rocks without much effort), a high enough CV to make life difficult for Supes(hideous amounts of CSLs being the norm in DBZ), and tough enough to ride out the occasional hit. Of course, if Supes were to grab him, that's probably the end of the fight. Not enough extra DCs to power out with that escape:D

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW' date=' the pattern consistently exists all throughout Marvel Comics -- when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs. [/quote']

 

There is also a consistent pattern of defeat for Heralds of Galactus other than Silver Surfer.

 

This is a meaningless statement unless we know who defeated them and under what circumstances.

 

It's no less meaningful than your statement that, when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs.

 

From the above two trends, we can note that Heralds of Galactus are widely perceived as immensely powerful, possibly even undefeatable. And that, whenever someone who doesn't automatically believe the hype stands and fights, it's typically the Herald that folds, not the challenger.

 

Makes you wonder how they keep that reputation...we could assume lots of off-panel successes, I suppose, but as Chuckg mentioned earlier, the fact that we don't know what happens off panel doesn't mean we can make it be whatever best suits our purposes.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A couple scans that may be of interest for the Spidey vs. Firelord discussion.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That's Eric Masterson Thor he's whomping on, not regular Thor. And that dude were a goober.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That's Eric Masterson Thor he's whomping on' date=' not regular Thor. And that dude were a goober.[/quote']

 

He had Thor's powers. He was certainly in Firelord's durability class.

 

And Spidey wasn't even angry in that fight.

 

Edit: And he won more fights than Firelord ever has...

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It's no less meaningful than your statement that' date=' when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs.[/quote']

 

Faulty and specious logic. The two statements do not even remotely compare.

 

'When a Herald of Galactus shows up, most alien starfleets flee in terror without even trying to engage.' (And yes, that's what I said -- the context of the statement 'everybody runs' was in re: the discussion of Nova at the Skrull Throneworld, and the success rate of alien warfleets vs. Heralds in general.)

 

'Heralds show a pattern of defeat in comics.'

 

The first is outlining all the relevant circumstances and participants clearly, if concisely. The second is 'forgetting' to mention that said pattern of defeat usually comes either from other, even more powerful cosmic characters... or else from ****e like the Spider-Man-vs-Firelord fight.

 

So, one statement leaves nothing significant out, and the other leaves *everything* significant out. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He had Thor's powers. He was certainly in Firelord's durability class.

 

He consistently lost fights that the real Thor would have won. Vs. the same people. He was obviously not as capable as regular Thor. Not to mention being enormously less skilled and experienced.

 

Edit -- btw, you haven't shown how that fight *ended*. Did he actually go down? Or was he merely panicking over nothing?

 

I can buy Eric Masterson Thor being entirely unable to hit Spider-Man in combat... see 'enormously less skilled and experienced', not to mention that Spidey is damn hard to hit for *anyone* without using major area effect frags. But if Spidey supposedly KO'ed the dude, I want to see him hit the floor and how.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, and to whoever mentioned the Spider-Man vs. Titania matchup... I went back and checked.

 

Are you referring to the fight that Spider-Man won by getting her to step in front of a speeding bus?

 

If that is the fight to which you refer then please, try not to leave significant details out next time.

 

(Edit -- I actually hope you were referring to the bus fight, 'cause if you're not, the only other Spidey defeat of Titania that I know of is when he had the Captain Universe powers, and friend, if you "forgot" to mention that it was Cosmic Spidey, then that's just plain low.)

 

Edit II -- still researching. There's also Spidey's first meeting with her, in SECRET WARS #8. However, that one /also/ has an extenuating circumstance that wasn't mentioned... not only is this Titania right after she got her powers (absolutely no fighting experience, IOW), but Spidey has the symbiote that will later become Venom, so he's boosted *again*.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But if Spidey supposedly KO'ed the dude, I want to see him hit the floor and how.

 

Spidey didn't KO him. They ended up teaming up to chase down Absorbing Man and Titania.

 

The point is that he *hurt* him and wore him down, with an onslaught nearly identical to the one that took down Firelord. The difference being that Spidey was enraged when he attacked Firelord (and Spidey gets stronger when he's angry), and had spent a lot of time wearing Firelord down beforehand.

 

If he can hurt a Thor stand-in with a spontaneous assault, the idea that he could briefly take down one of the weaker Heralds after a protracted running battle doesn't seem so far above his abilities.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, and to whoever mentioned the Spider-Man vs. Titania matchup... I went back and checked.

 

Are you referring to the fight that Spider-Man won by getting her to step in front of a speeding bus?

 

If that is the fight to which you refer then please, try not to leave significant details out next time.

 

(Edit -- I actually hope you were referring to the bus fight, 'cause if you're not, the only other Spidey defeat of Titania that I know of is when he had the Captain Universe powers, and friend, if you "forgot" to mention that it was Cosmic Spidey, then that's just plain low.)

 

Edit II -- still researching. There's also Spidey's first meeting with her, in SECRET WARS #8. However, that one /also/ has an extenuating circumstance that wasn't mentioned... not only is this Titania right after she got her powers (absolutely no fighting experience, IOW), but Spidey has the symbiote that will later become Venom, so he's boosted *again*.

 

 

They've fought more times than these.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> The point is that he *hurt* him and wore him down,

 

Wore him down how much? Was it genuine damage or merely cosmetic damage? From what you're describing, he was just fine fighting Titania a short while later, so Spidey can't have taken *that* much out of him, if anything.

 

(add) BTW, the fact that Eric Masterson actually needed help to defeat Titania shows right there just how much worse than normal Thor he is. Can we imagine regular Thor needing help to defeat Titania?

 

All I see is Masterson Thor freaking out that he's being punched repeatedly by a foe he can't hit back. Given how much of an inexperienced goober he is, this shattering of his confidence is just plausible. What I *don't* see is the guy actually going down, or even taking significant injury. The same onslaught vs. the real Thor wouldn't have even made the dude yelp. Then again, the real Thor is not a wuss who goes 'OMG OMG OMG I'm dying out here!' as soon as somebody raises a welt.

 

Spidey may have broken the guy's nerve, but I don't see anywhere that he's actually breaking the guy's face.

 

(add) In case I need to spell it out further, I don't see where making a completely inexperienced goober panic counts as actually inflicting significant damage past his physical defenses. Now if the guy went down, or was visibly limping a lot afterwards, that would be something else. Or if he'd made a guy *normally known for being stoic macho man* cry, that would be something else. But IIRC, at this point in his career, Masterson was, well, the kind version is 'not very used to fighting'.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

They've fought more times than these.

 

Issue #'s. And do you mean 'fought' as in 'they had a fight that didn't end with a Spidey victory', or 'she's been defeated by Spider-Man more times than these'?

 

The list of people Spidey has fought is longer than the list of people Spidey has *beaten*. Sometimes he does lose, you know. More often, the fight ends before it's concluded, or somebody else does a run-in.

 

Edit -- found one! Amazing Spider-Man #429! Where Titania is defeated because... a helicopter crashed on her. Yet *another* special circumstance/stroke of luck for Spidey.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

BTW' date=' the pattern consistently exists all throughout Marvel Comics -- when a Herald of Galactus shows up, everybody runs. Part of that is because they know that where a Herald goes, Galactus often follows... but the personal power of his Heralds has proven sufficient to wreck fleets before Galactus has even gotten there. With the aforementioned Ovoid exemption, I can't remember any of the contenders who have chosen 'Plan Stick Around And Fight It Out' ending up in any condition other than 'random debris floating in space'.[/quote']

 

 

Barring Earth, of course... a planet that has been noted amongst the great interstellar empires of the Marvel as a planet that has encountered Galactus several times now and repeatedly survived...

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Issue #'s. And do you mean 'fought' as in 'they had a fight that didn't end with a Spidey victory'' date=' or 'she's been defeated by Spider-Man more times than these'?[/quote']

 

I haven't read the fights, so I couldn't say. But they fought in Amazing Spider-Man 283 and 429, and Web of Spider-Man 59. Possibly elsewhere as well.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Barring Earth' date=' of course... a planet that has been noted amongst the great interstellar empires of the Marvel as a planet that has encountered Galactus several times now and repeatedly survived...[/quote']

 

True, although Earth's survival has come from doing things other than beating Galactus or his Heralds straight-up. Plan 'Have The Watcher Help Us Get The Ultimate Nullifier' is a bit different then 'Plan Stick Around And Fight It Out'.

 

Heck, with the exception of the original Surfer fight, I can't remember Galactus attacking Earth with a Herald in tow. Usually, when he comes to Earth, it's because he's starving to death and needs to eat something NOW, and this is a planet he can find *without* a Herald, 'cause he already been here. (And of course, when Galactus is starving to death, he's not as buff as he normally is. Of course, usually Reed does something to save his life at that point. *g*)

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I haven't read the fights' date=' so I couldn't say. But they fought in Amazing Spider-Man 283 and 429, and Web of Spider-Man 59. Possibly elsewhere as well.[/quote']

 

SpiderFan.org has a nice review of Amazing Spider-Man #283.

 

And in that fight, Titania beat him.

 

ASM #429, I already mentioned. Titania lost because a helicopter crashed on top of her, not because of anything Spidey had done. (He didn't even cause the chopper crash... a stray shot from the Absorbing Man's ball-and-chain did.)

 

Web of Spider-Man #59, that's the one where Spidey has the Captain Universe powers. And *Cosmic* Spidey... well, let's just say that if Cosmic Spidey had beaten Firelord, we wouldn't even be having an argument, 'cause that fight would have been legitimate and straight-up. (Seeing as how Cosmic Spidey was doing things like one-punching the Gray Hulk... into orbit.)

 

So far, it seems that every time Spider-Man has fought Titania, either he had some kind of power boost, or some kind of outside circumstance saved his butt. In the one fight where neither happened, Titania trashed him.

 

So much for using the Titania fight as evidence that Spidey should have taken down Firelord.

 

(add) This is, btw, an example of why it is very very important to, when arguing about which comic character beat down who, to also provide the full context of just exactly how the beating went down.