Worst comic book superfight ever

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

SpiderFan.org has a nice review of Amazing Spider-Man #283.

 

And in that fight, Titania beat him.

 

That would be interesting, if the review actually said that.

 

Now, she manages to grab Spidey by his hands. "You just made your first fatal mistake, webs!" she says with confidence, "You got close enough for me to grab you!" Things don't look good for the web-slinger. He is already bushed from his fight with Crusher. If he is going to save himself, he must "give it everything I've got". But he never gets the chance. Crusher Creel sticks his nose in by lifting an airplane over his head (while assuming the properties of the airplane's metal) and yelling out, "Enough! This battle ends right now!" (And it looks like a good thing he did because somehow Titania goes from fiercely gripping Spider-Man by the hands to sitting on the runway, helpless, with Spider-Man grabbing onto her hair... all in the space of one panel with no explanation for her sudden downfall.) It turns out that the airplane is full of passengers. Crusher tells Spidey that his intervention has already screwed up their plans. "Be content with that" he says, "and call this fight a draw or I trash this plane loada passengers." Spidey makes a feeble effort to call Crusher's bluff ("Get real, Creel! This airport's gotta be surrounded with cops by now!") but the Absorbing Man doesn't bite. "This plane ain't gettin' any lighter" he says. Spidey thinks about it for a moment, then decides to let Crusher have his way. He's already thinking about quitting his web-slinging identity and he never wanted a part of this fight to begin with. He swings away, saying, "You win, Creel! I quit!" A photographer on the ground snaps a picture of Spidey running off and a security guard thinks of Spidey, "Never figured him for a coward."

 

Looks like a draw.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And given the handful that Titania has proven to be to She-Hulk' date=' even the Titania fight I find somewhat less than convincing, although nowhere near the full gaping insanity of Spider-Man-vs-Firelord.[/quote']

 

Actually... though I'm with you on the Firelord fight, I remember the Titania fight and think that its actually plausible.

 

First, the fight took place in a room roughly the size of a high-school basketball court, with lots of headspace. Second, Spider-Man "fought" Titania by basically sarcastically riding her butt (getting her angrier and angrier, and more and more out of control) while using his speed/agility advantage over her to make sure the closest she ever got with a punch wasn't even in the ballpark. Every once in a while he would land a slap on her... not a punch... he was slapping her openhanded, with the intention of getting her even more angry and out of control and just bursting to hurt someone.

 

When she was tired and slowing down, having burned all her energy in a futile attempt to smush him like a bug, he effectively judo-threw her through a window overlooking a rather high cliff (the building they were in being on top of said cliff). So he "won" by taking her out of the fight indirectly, rather than beating her down with brute force. She sustained more injury from falling off the top of a mountain than anything he did to her directly.

 

I can buy that. His being faster and more agile is almost a given, and at no time did her weight ever come close to Spidey's maximum lift capacity. (I think an old HOTMU listed her as weighing something like 400 pounds or such... he can press that one-handed and not really get uptight about it.)

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

(and Spidey gets stronger when he's angry)

Wait a sec...Really? Since when? I thought Hulk had the anger/strength market sewn up.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wait a sec...Really? Since when? I thought Hulk had the anger/strength market sewn up.

 

It's not listed in his power suite, but there are a multitude of examples. It's possibly explained by Spidey's tendency to hold back from his full strength in most situations.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So, *every* defeat of Titania by Spider-Man has involved indirect means, and not just him KO'ing her straight up? We're agreed then?

[death tribble]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I agree with the Liefeld fights especially since the Youngblood fights take place off camera.

 

But all these posts and all these pages and no mention of Hellcat vs Tigershark in Avengers West Coast when Baron Zemo Junior convened the fourth Masters of Evil ? That was a ridiculous fight.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hellcat vs. Tiger Shark? One of the least skilled martial artist/acrobats to ever make an Avengers line-up... vs. a credible slugfest opponent for Namor?

 

No, never read that one, but now my morbid curiosity is piqued. Just how bad /was/ bad?

[death tribble]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Over in a couple of panels. It was an issue entitled a tale of Two Kitties.

Tigershark was taken out in a couple of panels because it suit was torn by Hellcat. Not as bad as a Liefeld fight but still.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

It's not listed in his power suite' date=' but there are a multitude of examples. It's possibly explained by Spidey's tendency to hold back from his full strength in most situations.[/quote']

 

I always thought that that was handled in game by pushing and haymakering, not a boost to the base stat.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Over in a couple of panels. It was an issue entitled a tale of Two Kitties.

 

Tigershark was taken out in a couple of panels because it suit was torn by Hellcat. Not as bad as a Liefeld fight but still.

 

Hrm. While Tiger Shark does get weaker if he's out of water too long, and his containment suit is built to help mitigate that... isn't he amphibious like Namor? That's to say, unlike most Atlanteans, he can actually stay out of water for hours and hours before he starts wilting?

 

I mean, if it was Attuma, I could believe this -- Attuma didn't have the MU equivalent of "Atlan's Gift", he needed a water harness just to *breathe*. Pull the hose and he's suffocating inside a minute. But Tiger Shark?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He had Thor's powers. He was certainly in Firelord's durability class.

 

And Spidey wasn't even angry in that fight.

 

Edit: And he won more fights than Firelord ever has...

 

Including one fight against Gladiator, who has long been established as being in the same power class as the Heralds of Galactus.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So' date=' one statement leaves nothing significant out, and the other leaves *everything* significant out. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same.[/quote']

 

One supports Chuckg's argument and one does not...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

True, although Earth's survival has come from doing things other than beating Galactus or his Heralds straight-up. Plan 'Have The Watcher Help Us Get The Ultimate Nullifier' is a bit different then 'Plan Stick Around And Fight It Out'.

 

Heck, with the exception of the original Surfer fight, I can't remember Galactus attacking Earth with a Herald in tow. Usually, when he comes to Earth, it's because he's starving to death and needs to eat something NOW, and this is a planet he can find *without* a Herald, 'cause he already been here. (And of course, when Galactus is starving to death, he's not as buff as he normally is. Of course, usually Reed does something to save his life at that point. *g*)

 

Actually, the Torch - alone - took out Terrax in Terrax's first story arc (though he actually used some brainpower to do it). And the heroes of Earth did, in fact, defeat a starving Galactus many years ago, which ultimately lead to the "Trial of Reed Richards" when he saved Galactus' life.

 

As for "with a herald in tow", there was:

 

- the Airwalker Automoton attack (around FF #123 IIRC)

 

- none I recall with Firelord

 

- attacked Counter-Earth (not real Earth) using the Destroyer as his herald

 

- the aforementioned first Terrax arc (when Reed bluffed him into calling off his attack - not starving, therefore - although that was still an attack of convenience since Galactus was already on Earth)

 

That's a couple with herald other than the Surfer in tow, just off the top, one of which wasn't simply an "earth is close" situation. Note that, at some point, Galactus vowed never to attack the Earth (hence counter-earth instead), which vow was released in the Terrax arc, acted on when he showed up and got beaten by Earth's supers, and he then decided never to attack Earth again because they saved his life.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Looks like a draw.

 

Plus, given the description, Spidey was already worn down, so it was hardly a fair fight for him to face Titania when she wasn't worn down by other battles, was it now?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Including one fight against Gladiator' date=' who has long been established as being in the same power class as the Heralds of Galactus.[/quote']

 

Gladiator has gone from being undefeatable by Thor to being defeatable by Cannonball. His power curve is *extremely* variable, and he's not really useful as any kind of benchmark, 'cause he has /in-story/ reasons for being either up or down on any given week.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So' date=' *every* defeat of Titania by Spider-Man has involved indirect means, and not just him KO'ing her straight up? We're agreed then?[/quote']

 

You mean like, oh, tricking her into a building which is promptly demolished, or blowing up a gas station with her at ground zero? Spidey only landed the finishing punches on Firelord after dragging him all through NYC, and wearing him down with events like those.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

One supports Chuckg's argument and one does not...

 

This from the guy who has never yet submitted an example without a significant mitigating circumstance that he "forgot" to mention.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Including one fight against Gladiator' date=' who has long been established as being in the same power class as the Heralds of Galactus.[/quote']

He beat Gladiator?!? I hope he made him doubt his powers or whatever that lame weakness was, otherwise I just see Spidey breaking his hands and feet when he goes to punch or kick Gladiator.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You mean like' date=' oh, tricking her into a building which is promptly demolished, or blowing up a gas station with her at ground zero?[/quote']

 

An exploding gas station vs. a being that laughs at solar plasma temperatures. A demolition charge vs. a guy who bounces hits from Mjolnir. These are supposed to have *worked*? It's laughably inept writing.

 

Superman was supposedly stunned by an exploding gas station during the Doomsday arc... is that even remotely believable? Well, neither are these.

 

Jobbing we called it, and jobbing it is. Not only did Firelord suddenly forget the use of most of his powers, he suddenly became enormously weaker than usual for no reason at all. This is how you job. It's textbook.

[Karma]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For the Wolvie vrs Lobo fight All i gotta say is that Lobo hold his own against people like Vril Dox, Captain Marvel and Superman. No way the Kanuckle head could take him.

 

The problem is that ostesbly the winning participant was determined by fan vote. So all this fight says is that the Candian former psycho has more fans that the alien present psycho.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I always thought that that was handled in game by pushing and haymakering' date=' not a boost to the base stat.[/quote']

 

In Spidey's case, I think it results from a tendency to use less than his full base stat at almost all times, unthinkable to us as gamers, but Spidey worries about consequences. As a result, when he does hit with all he's got, it looks like he's become stronger.

 

This holding back (not even consciously) was also an issue for Thor back around Avengers #149.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He beat Gladiator?!? I hope he made him doubt his powers or whatever that lame weakness was' date=' otherwise I just see Spidey breaking his hands and feet when he goes to punch or kick Gladiator.[/quote']

 

I think he's referring to Eric Masterson Thor supposedly beating Gladiator, not Spidey.

 

But yes, the idea of *either* of them triumphing vs. a Gladiator whose power is not being nullified at that moment is laughable, seeing as how Silver Age Thor -- the true Thor, during the Simonson run, when he did some of his most cosmic stuff -- needed a *power boost* to even have a *hope* of taking Gladiator.

 

Of course, if the writer is using Gladiator's 'confidence weakness' or his 'exotic radiation weakness', then you can KO him with Cannonball. But that's what I meant re: Gladiator's extremely variable power curve.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

He beat Gladiator?!? I hope he made him doubt his powers or whatever that lame weakness was' date=' otherwise I just see Spidey breaking his hands and feet when he goes to punch or kick Gladiator.[/quote']

 

Sorry; Eric Masterson/Thor (not Spidey) beat Gladiator. Eric was his usual low-confidence self, but ultimately came to the realization "I've got the power of Thor - who does this guy think he is to stand up to that?"

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

This holding back (not even consciously) was also an issue for Thor back around Avengers #149.

 

*googles*

 

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldauto=269

 

Well, yes. Thor admitted that most of the time he's with the Avengers, he doesn't use full force.

 

Of course, Thor using full force against most Earth supervillains tends to result in them dying via messy splatter... and while Thor doesn't have a CvK, he's aware that the Avengers charter does.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But yes' date=' the idea of *either* of them triumphing vs. a Gladiator whose power is not being nullified at that moment is laughable, seeing as how Silver Age Thor -- the true Thor, during the Simonson run, when he did some of his most cosmic stuff -- needed a *power boost* to even have a *hope* of taking Gladiator.[/quote']

 

Don't think I recall the power boost for "Original Thor" ("Thor Classic?)

 

However, Masterson possessed all the power of Thor. He just lacked the combat skills. Against Gladiator (never one who avoids taking a hit, much like Thor), I don't see that extra OCV meaning much.