Worst comic book superfight ever

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sorry; Eric Masterson/Thor (not Spidey) beat Gladiator. Eric was his usual low-confidence self' date=' but ultimately came to the realization "I've got the power of Thor - who does this guy think he is to stand up to that?"[/quote']

 

A guy who was totally overmatching the REAL Thor until Reed Richards gave Thor a temporal accelerator to boost his speed up to where he could even hope to fight Gladiator?

 

Short of the confidence weakness fritzing Gladiator out again, I'd call the idea of Eric Masterson beating Gladiator another fight that belongs in this thread, by itself.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Don't think I recall the power boost for "Original Thor" ("Thor Classic?)

 

*points up*

 

Gladiator was using his speed advantage in his first fight vs. Thor to such a point that Reed Richards had to bust out a temporal accelerator gizmo and give it to Thor, so that Thor could actually operate at Gladiator's level temporarily.

 

Until then, Thor was really not gettin' much of anywhere.

 

(edit) FANTASTIC FOUR vol. 1 #339

 

Simonson-era Thor, to boot. Aka 'the buffest Thor anyone can remember except for Odinpower Thor'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For interest, 25 pages of this Spidey vs Firelord debate from last time.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=753921#post753921

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A guy who was totally overmatching the REAL Thor until Reed Richards gave Thor a temporal accelerator to boost his speed up to where he could even hope to fight Gladiator?

 

Short of the confidence weakness fritzing Gladiator out again, I'd call the idea of Eric Masterson beating Gladiator another fight that belongs in this thread, by itself.

 

Maybe it's the "Thor needs help to beat Gladiator" fight that belongs here. After all, even Cannonball has beaten Gladiator

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh, btw, asked a friend.

 

You forgot to mention that when Masterson 'beat' Gladiator during Operation Galactic Storm, he did so by (among other things) collapsing a Shi'ar stargate with Gladiator inside it.

 

(Which, btw, makes my statement re: the laughability of the fight non-operative -- Gladiator's tough, as in Pre-Crisis Superman tough, but being inside a collapsing stargate will give even him a bad day.)

 

Will you please stop selectively manipulating context to make characters look better or worse than they are?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

PS, new data point:

 

Nova, Herald of Galactus, she who supposedly isn't really powerful or anything...

 

... has blown up stars.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/Daimaoh/DOSSIE%20SURFISTA/Silver_Surfer_1988_009_17.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/Daimaoh/DOSSIE%20SURFISTA/Silver_Surfer_1988_009_18.jpg

 

SILVER SURFER #9, vol 3.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

A page of generic Herald of Galactus feats. Most of 'em star the Surfer, as he gets the most face time in the comics, but other Heralds take their bows.

 

http://monk.tripod.com.br/surfista-en.html

[Force]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That one was a What If, right?

 

I seem to recall the Punisher wacking Doc Doom with ease (sends an electric charge through his armor, causing it to freeze up, and then smashes Doom's head in with multiple blows from a sledgehammer), killing all the Marvel mutants, capping Captain America with a holdout piece, and taking the Hulk down with one-shot sniper tactics.

 

And oh yes, he committed suicide in the end to the words: "Not all the supers are dead... (puts pistol to temple) There's still one left."

 

Also, if I remember right, everything started when the X-Men and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants started a superbattle in the park where his family was eating. They became "collateral damage", and an irate Frank blows away several mutants from both sides before getting clawed by Wolvey. Or something like that.

 

It was a graphic novel I believe.

 

I truly believe this was the crappiest superfight ever.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, the 'Supergirl returns!' arc in SUPERMAN/BATMAN where Superman casually dragged Darkseid from the Earth all the way to the corona of the sun against his will, then punched the hapless Darkseid so hard that what looked for all the world like marshmallow fluff leaked out, and then travelled to the Source Wall by... flying really fast...

 

... /that/ was the crappiest superfight ever.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Marshmallow fluff! :rofl: Thanks, I needed that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

If I had a page scan, I'd post it. Swear to God, the... cosmic whatever(?)... they tried to draw leaking out of Darkseid's cracked body looked *exactly* like marshmallow fluff.

 

Or maybe cotton candy.

 

... they did this to DARKSEID.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The worst part is that I remember that. I'll have to go drag the issue out and take a look as I already snarfed cola over your characterization of it, so it deserves a trip down memory lane.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So' date=' *every* defeat of Titania by Spider-Man has involved indirect means, and not just him KO'ing her straight up? We're agreed then?[/quote']

 

Nah. I found my copy of Secret Wars #8, and the facts have been misrepresented.

 

For one, Spidey didn't have the symbiote. He got that at the end of the issue. He fought Titania in the middle, in his red and blues.

 

For two, it wasn't slaps and judo throws and "let's make her mad so I survive this." It was closed fists, kicks, and knocking her around. SPidey ends the fight by throwing her out a window, and Titania ends the fight unconscious. It was a legitimate beatdown, and Spidey did it with casual contempt.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Nah. I found my copy of Secret Wars #8, and the facts have been misrepresented.

 

For one, Spidey didn't have the symbiote. He got that at the end of the issue. He fought Titania in the middle, in his red and blues.

 

For two, it wasn't slaps and judo throws and "let's make her mad so I survive this." It was closed fists, kicks, and knocking her around. SPidey ends the fight by throwing her out a window, and Titania ends the fight unconscious. It was a legitimate beatdown, and Spidey did it with casual contempt.

That was before they had really established her powers though, right? I might be really hazy admittedly, but when she was introduced I thought she was no stronger or tougher than your average wrecking crew flunky. It was only later that they seemed to pump her up to Hercules class strength/durability levels.

 

Of course, recently in the New Avengers, Spider-man couldn't do more than annoy a fully charged Wrecker, so I think we should just accept that continuity is pretty much a four letter word.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

That was before they had really established her powers though' date=' right? I might be really hazy admittedly, but when she was introduced I thought she was no stronger or tougher than your average wrecking crew flunky. It was only later that they seemed to pump her up to Hercules class strength/durability levels.[/quote']

 

She was billed as a match for She-Hulk when she first got her powers. It was kind of foreshadowing She-Hulk getting ambushed and hospitalized.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> For one, Spidey didn't have the symbiote. He got that at the end of the

> issue. He fought Titania in the middle, in his red and blues.

 

Fair enough. I misremembered when Spidey got the symbiote. I apologize.

 

OTOH, I'm not the *only* one who misrepresented a fact. And unlike me, you did it deliberately -- as you typed this *after* you'd read the comic.

 

(finally finds his /own/ copy of Secret Wars #8. if I'd had this sucker an hour ago, we could have saved ourselves some aggro)

 

> For two, it wasn't slaps and judo throws and "let's make her mad so I

> survive this." It was closed fists, kicks, and knocking her around.

> SPidey ends the fight by throwing her out a window, and Titania ends

> the fight unconscious.

 

Actually, to be fair, he threw her through a wall. Then again, Spidey is strong enough to throw a 400-pound invulnerable object through a stone wall. He ain't no Hulk, but he's got his own Class 10-15 strength, which is sufficient unto that task. No argument there.

 

What you forgot to mention is that Titania was still fully conscious when she went through the wall. Spidey threw her by using his massive speed and agility advantage to get around behind her, cut her legs out from under her, and tossed her by her ankle. His earlier punches had knocked her off balance and stung her(*), but hadn't really slowed her down much.

 

But here's the kicker. You mentioned that he threw her outside, yes. You *didn't* mention that they were about a mile off the ground at the time, way up in the top of of a very tall building.

 

> It was a legitimate beatdown,

 

Only if you consider dropping somebody over 5,000 feet to the ground a 'legitimate beatdown'.

 

(add) Oh, btw, data point. Titania was still conscious after the fall. She got halfway up, mumbled 'Not fair!', staggered a step or two, and *then* fell over.

 

So, we're talking somebody who falling thousands of feet doesn't *quite* KO, or at least, not instantly. That's really, really tough.

 

> and Spidey did it with casual contempt.

 

You overstate.

 

 

 

 

(*) If somebody has enough breath left to be repeatedly screaming "OW! NOT FAIR!" at the top of their lungs, then while they're obviously not happy, neither are they staggering or dazed.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

She was billed as a match for She-Hulk when she first got her powers. It was kind of foreshadowing She-Hulk getting ambushed and hospitalized.

Again though, that was before Jenn got her own book and an increase in her own powers. She was pretty firmly in the second tier bricks back then. Byrne gradually increased her to Thing levels during his FF run and his She-Hulk run.

 

In the old OHOTMU terms, she went from class 50 to 75, while Titania went from class 50 to class 100.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And here's the fight I was talking about! Cool.

 

Personally, I loved the rematch... of course, the rematch is the only one I read. I felt the Thing did have a 'clean win', all things considered, since he absolutely beat Hulk - Doom had to pull his fat out of the fire, and THEN, Thing went on to beat up a Hulkbot. The issue left no uncertainty that Hulk was utterly outclassed by Thing.

But he didn't know it was the Hulk, impure vicotry.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Faulty and specious logic. The two statements do not even remotely compare.

 

'When a Herald of Galactus shows up, most alien starfleets flee in terror without even trying to engage.' (And yes, that's what I said -- the context of the statement 'everybody runs' was in re: the discussion of Nova at the Skrull Throneworld, and the success rate of alien warfleets vs. Heralds in general.)

 

'Heralds show a pattern of defeat in comics.'

 

The first is outlining all the relevant circumstances and participants clearly, if concisely. The second is 'forgetting' to mention that said pattern of defeat usually comes either from other, even more powerful cosmic characters... or else from ****e like the Spider-Man-vs-Firelord fight.

 

So, one statement leaves nothing significant out, and the other leaves *everything* significant out. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things is not the same.

And Spider-Man has used speed, wits, and his normally untapped reserves of strength to deal with multiple cosmic opponents over the decades.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

OTOH, I'm not the *only* one who misrepresented a fact. And unlike me, you did it deliberately -- as you typed this *after* you'd read the comic.

 

said the pot to the soap bar. Or have we forgotten your creative interpretation of the Spiderfan review?

 

 

What you forgot to mention is that Titania was still fully conscious when she went through the wall.

 

I didn't expressly say it, no, but I implied it when I said he ended the fight thereby. If she'd already been unconscious, the fight would have been over already.

 

Spidey threw her by using his massive speed and agility advantage to get around behind her, cut her legs out from under her, and tossed her by her ankle. His earlier punches had knocked her off balance and stung her(*), but hadn't really slowed her down much.

 

But here's the kicker. You mentioned that he threw her outside, yes. You *didn't* mention that they were about a mile off the ground at the time, way up in the top of of a very tall building.

 

A building on a cliff, yes. And I didn't restate it because that had been established in a previous post and didn't need correction.

 

Only if you consider dropping somebody over 5,000 feet to the ground a 'legitimate beatdown'.

 

Combined with the preamble, I do. If he can collapse a building on Firelord to soften him up, he can throw Titania out of a building to finish her off.

 

Do you think Titania would have been KO'd if he'd just walked up behind her and pushed her off a ledge the same height? I don't.

 

You overstate.

 

I don't think so. He mocked her the entire time and was never pressured or endangered.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Only if you consider dropping somebody over 5,000 feet to the ground a 'legitimate beatdown'.

 

Who wouldn't call being dropped over 5,000 feet a 'legitimate beatdown'? One of Spider-Man's talents is ingenuity and he has the powers and intelligence to be quite good at it. That's why he beats people that he wouldn't beat if he just stood there and leaned into their punch. Can Spider-Man beat Titania? Yes, virtually every time the fight isn't a draw it would be Spider-Man as the victor. Why? Because she's not going to tag him and he's going to find a way to use his speed, agility, webbing, and Spidey-strength to beat her.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

PS, new data point:

 

Nova, Herald of Galactus, she who supposedly isn't really powerful or anything...

 

... has blown up stars.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/Daimaoh/DOSSIE%20SURFISTA/Silver_Surfer_1988_009_17.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/Daimaoh/DOSSIE%20SURFISTA/Silver_Surfer_1988_009_18.jpg

 

SILVER SURFER #9, vol 3.

Yep, I suppose she could beat Spider-Man if she blew up the sun. But would she?

 

And ask yourself, do the Heralds display all this power when they interact with superheroes in less cosmic titles?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Who wouldn't call being dropped over 5,000 feet a 'legitimate beatdown'?

 

Anyone who wishes to use that fight as part of a line of reasoning as to why Spidey can punch hard enough to hurt a Herald of Galactus. Because, of course, dropping somebody a mile to the ground doesn't prove squat about your muscle power, 'cause it's not your muscles that are delivering the knockout punch, it's Mr. Gravity and his friend, Terra Firma.

 

Now, dodging around her and flipping her like he did, that proves lots about Spidey's speed and agility. But nobody were disputing those. Throwing her through a stone wall, that proves quite clearly that Spidey's strength is in the 10-15 ton range. Nobody were disputing that, either.

 

What we is disputing is that he has some type of 'Maximum Spider' mode where he can punch out people who are in the Class 100 range.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And ask yourself' date=' do the Heralds display all this power when they interact with superheroes in less cosmic titles?[/quote']

 

No, they usually tend to mysteriously forget about 99% of their powers and stand around like idiots. And in at least some cases, go down like tackling dummies. The only exception to this is the Surfer, because he's got the "I Have My Own Title" effect saving his ***.

 

Some of us think that's stupid writing. If you're going to make a character too cosmic to meaningfully interact with street levellers, then don't have him interact with street levellers. Have him fly overhead and wave, and then go back to appearing in titles more appropriate to adventures of such scope, like SILVER SURFER or FANTASTIC FOUR. But don't have the guy or gal show up and then suddenly go 'oh, I think I'll act like my retarded younger brother, Firedunce'.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

you guys do realize that you have spent (and I am being genrous here) 6 pages arguing over a comicbook fight scene that happened 30 years ago while the writers may have been high, like it's a serial murder case; right?

 

I mean obviously the Firelord v Spiderman fight illustrates why we like RPG's because we rarely have any Firewing v Foxbat controversies; but it is one of the more contrived victories Spiderman ever had in the opinion of many many comic readers. But it's still there; it's not been retconned that I am aware of.

Some think it perfectly illustrates Spiderman's skill, intellect, and rarely used physical power; others think it perfectly illustrates how the guy with his name on the cover always wins even when he shouldn't (except Daredevil). We get it. Now to your neutral corners, the bell has sounded and no one's opinions have been swayed one way or another. It's a draw.

 

 

Back on Topic:

Janet Van Dyne vs Moon Dragon.

Ugh. When your incredibly powerful, martially trained, immortal supermentalist can be one punched by a socialite who shrinks, credibility gets ruptured out ones tuckus.