Worst comic book superfight ever

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Who wouldn't call being dropped over 5,000 feet a 'legitimate beatdown'?

 

Anyone who wishes to use that fight as part of a line of reasoning as to why Spidey can punch hard enough to hurt a Herald of Galactus. Because, of course, dropping somebody a mile to the ground doesn't prove squat about your muscle power, 'cause it's not your muscles that are delivering the knockout punch, it's Mr. Gravity and his friend, Terra Firma.

 

Now, dodging around her and flipping her like he did, that proves lots about Spidey's speed and agility. But nobody were disputing those. Throwing her through a stone wall, that proves quite clearly that Spidey's strength is in the 10-15 ton range. Nobody were disputing that, either.

 

What we is disputing is that he has some type of 'Maximum Spider' mode where he can punch out people who are in the Class 100 range.

Why would you dispute that? He's put "stun" on any number of Class 100 threats over the years.

 

You don't get to pick which issues are valid and which issues are not. Just because Spider-Man has trouble with folks that aren't cosmic class doesn't mean he can't give cosmic class beings trouble. Why? Because it's in the comic books and it's not just a single incident. He's been doing it since the 1960s. Your whole argument is built around some idea that you get to pick which stories we all have to pay attention to and you don't. You're not the boss of anyone on these boards.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

...because we rarely have any Firewing v Foxbat controversies;

Of course not. Everyone knows Foxbat would one punch Firewing.

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> You don't get to pick which issues are valid and which issues are not.

 

Of course I do. If two issues blatantly contradict each other, they can't both be true simultaneously. One of them *has* to go, and if common sense is to reign, it's gonna be the one that's further out of character and less consistent with the remainder of a given body of work.

 

Such things as continuity errors and simple bad writing do exist. Pretending that they don't is nonsense. Pretending that simply because something appeared in one issue, that means it must be unquestioningly accepted even if it requires straining logic and good sense all out of shape to even halfway rationalize as jibing with lots of other comics, also nonsense.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No, they usually tend to mysteriously forget about 99% of their powers and stand around like idiots. And in at least some cases, go down like tackling dummies. The only exception to this is the Surfer, because he's got the "I Have My Own Title" effect saving his ***.

 

Some of us think that's stupid writing. If you're going to make a character too cosmic to meaningfully interact with street levellers, then don't have him interact with street levellers. Have him fly overhead and wave, and then go back to appearing in titles more appropriate to adventures of such scope, like SILVER SURFER or FANTASTIC FOUR. But don't have the guy or gal show up and then suddenly go 'oh, I think I'll act like my retarded younger brother, Firedunce'.

Some of us think the Silver Surfer comic book was an over-hyped craptastic excrapiganza that didn't have the right feel for the Marvel Universe.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Of course not. Everyone knows Foxbat would one punch Firewing.

 

I think, in the right circumstances, Foxbat could take him.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Some of us think the Silver Surfer comic book was an over-hyped craptastic excrapiganza that didn't have the right feel for the Marvel Universe.

 

Your whole argument is built around some idea that you get to pick which stories we all have to pay attention to and you don't. You're not the boss of anyone on these boards.

 

Ah, I see. *I* don't get to pick which stories are believable or jibing with the MU, and which aren't. Only *Agent X* gets to pick those. He's the boss of everyone on these boards, and I am not.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> You don't get to pick which issues are valid and which issues are not.

 

Of course I do. If two issues blatantly contradict each other, they can't both be true simultaneously. One of them *has* to go, and if common sense is to reign, it's gonna be the one that's further out of character and less consistent with the remainder of a given body of work.

 

Such things as continuity errors and simple bad writing do exist. Pretending that they don't is nonsense. Pretending that simply because something appeared in one issue, that means it must be unquestioningly accepted even if it requires straining logic and good sense all out of shape to even halfway rationalize as jibing with lots of other comics, also nonsense.

Common sense says that we really shouldn't pay attention to comics titles outside of the mainstream milieu to dictate what happens in the mainstream milieu.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Agent X, has the staggering hypocrisy of you arrogantly demanding that entire title runs be excluded from consideration simply because you don't like them, while simultaneously sneering that it's wrong for me to ignore even so much as one single comic because I think it cannot be logically reconciled with the vast majority of appearances for either character involved, dawned on you yet?

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah' date=' I see. *I* don't get to pick which stories are believable or jibing with the MU, and which aren't. Only *Agent X* gets to pick those. He's the boss of everyone on these boards, and I am not. [/quote'] Nope. I'ts real simple. I was pointing out that your common sense isn't everyone's common sense.

 

My common sense tells me, after reading oodles of Spider-Man titles, that Spider-Man has a great deal of power that even he doesn't understand and other knowledgeable characters in the comics have consistently made that remark. You wanna keep talking about the Heralds but what you really seem to be missing is how Marvel has defined Spider-Man.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Agent X' date=' has the staggering hypocrisy of you arrogantly demanding that entire title runs be excluded from consideration simply because you don't like them, while simultaneously sneering that it's wrong for me to ignore even so much as one single comic simply because I think it don't fit, dawned on you yet?[/quote'] Sure. I'm working two angles here. Either way you're wrong and I'm half-right at the very least.

 

Just wait until I can find my tools so I can throw the kitchen sink into the mix.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah, I see. It's not about an honest attempt to evaluate facts or draw conclusions, or maintain any type of intellectual integrity or logical consistency in your reasoning. It's simply about getting verbally one-up on Chuckg, no matter how smarmingly two-faced you have to be about it.

 

Looks like it's Ignore List time for you again.

 

*plonk*

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah, I see. It's not about an honest attempt to evaluate facts or draw conclusions, or maintain any type of intellectual integrity or logical consistency in your reasoning. It's simply about getting verbally one-up on Chuckg, no matter how smarmingly two-faced you have to be about it.

 

Looks like it's Ignore List time for you again.

 

*plonk*

No, it's the rules of debate. I get to make my argument: That Spider-Man has consistently been shown in the comics to be able to deal with cosmic class threats.

 

And I get to explore any intrinsic weaknesses in your argument:

That we should only select certain stories and that those stories should be the ones you picked.

 

I don't have to pretend that there isn't anything wrong with your argument from you tact of debate. I can play by both sets of rules to show that my argument works and has internal consistency and I can use your rules to show that your argument does not have internal consistency.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't think so. He mocked her the entire time and was never pressured or endangered.

 

Chuck, how is it that you cite Titania's ability to keep saying "No Fair" as evidence she wasn't really winded by any of this, but you don't accept Spidey's ability to calmly keep jumping back and forth while verbally abusing Titania as evidence he's not feeling any pressure.

 

Note that Spidey is uncharacteristically quiet during the Firelord battle - evidence that this is taking a real toll on him, one that very few battles ever do.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Xorn? Watch this Flash animation. It explains all.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/218160

I could have pointed out that video myself had I wanted.

 

Wolverine should NEVER be able to touch Magneto, ever. It is so stupid that Magneto (or rather Magneto IV aka Xorn) can have enough energy to kill Jean Grey of all people and yet not have enough power left to stop an admantium laced skeleton from beheading him.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Chuck, how is it that you cite Titania's ability to keep saying "No Fair"

> as evidence she wasn't really winded by any of this, but you don't

> accept Spidey's ability to calmly keep jumping back and forth while

> verbally abusing Titania as evidence he's not feeling any pressure.

 

Did I say he was feeling any pressure? He's fighting a completely inexperienced opponent in a place where he's got ample room to maneuver, she's got no help coming, and there's no innocents in danger to make him have to split his attention. Barring a stroke of luck bordering on the miraculous, she's never going to hit him. He *is* your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, after all. There's durn few things that are higher DCV than him when he's aborting to acrobatic dodge.

 

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the point that this fight proves exactly jack and squat about how strong Spidey can punch someone. It has zero value as evidence for making the case that he could plausibly KO Firelord with his fists, because he doesn't even KO Titania with his fists. He lets a terminal-velocity impact do the KO'ing for him.

 

(add) BTW, note. Spider-Man, a guy with a very high CvK, threw a completely unfamiliar opponent out of a building and into a 5000+-foot fall. Granted, she survived, but at this point in the game, how could he be sure of that? "Secret Wars" is Titania's origin story, after all. Why would Spidey take this risk if he supposedly could just have gone 'Maximum Spider' and pounded her into the floor?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You know, taken in the context of the time, the first Sabretooth appearance in X-Men really should be on this list.

 

Think about it. Up until that time, Sabretooth is a half credible opponent for Iron Fist. His most recent pre-X-Men apearances are in Spider Man, where he ends up with stitches all over his face, then tears the sticthes and nearly rips his own face off trying to remove Spidey's webbing.

 

A few months later, he's able to take on the X-men and recover quickly from anything and everything Wolverine can dish out.

 

Of course, it's 20+ years later, and we only remember "Sabretooth the Badass", not the character who had a tough time facing Iron Fist or Spidey without backup.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Agreed. The rise of SabreToothGod is one of the stupider mistakes X-comics have made in the past ten years, and that's a very crowded list.

 

... oh, and I do remember the guy who was originally an Iron Fist villain, thankyouverymuch.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Of course, it's 20+ years later, and we only remember "Sabretooth the Badass", not the character who had a tough time facing Iron Fist or Spidey without backup.

 

Yeah...but before he got really, really overexposed, Badass Sabretooth was an effective, scary villain. A powerup that improves a character's readability can't be too bad.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

But this has absolutely nothing to do with the point that this fight proves exactly jack and squat about how strong Spidey can punch someone. It has zero value as evidence for making the case that he could plausibly KO Firelord with his fists' date=' because he doesn't even KO Titania with his fists. [/quote']

 

Where is the evidence of Firelord's vast durability?

 

Yes, he fought Thor. Big deal - so did the Cobra and Mr. Hyde. The Rhino fought the Hulk. Lots of characters Spidey has beaten have fought the Big Boys.

 

Show me the evidence Firelord would not be damaged by Spidey's blows (as opposed to the fact he has enough DEF that he won't lose a lot of STUN per hit, and has a lot of STUN so it takes a while to wear him down).

 

He certainly seemed durable when he first apeared, but he's gotten his clock cleaned more than enough since to cast doubt on that durability. [Hmmm...wasn't he initially working for Loki? Maybe Loki beefed him uop from the sidelines so this joker would have a chance against Thor, when he'd have a tough time with a wisecracking mortal absent such godly aid...]

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

You know, taken in the context of the time, the first Sabretooth appearance in X-Men really should be on this list.

 

Think about it. Up until that time, Sabretooth is a half credible opponent for Iron Fist. His most recent pre-X-Men apearances are in Spider Man, where he ends up with stitches all over his face, then tears the sticthes and nearly rips his own face off trying to remove Spidey's webbing.

 

A few months later, he's able to take on the X-men and recover quickly from anything and everything Wolverine can dish out.

 

Of course, it's 20+ years later, and we only remember "Sabretooth the Badass", not the character who had a tough time facing Iron Fist or Spidey without backup.

Heh..he was Iron Fist's regular bad-haired punching bag for a loooonnngggg time before he became Uber leet super psycho killing machine of the week.

 

Of course my own pet peeve is Taskmaster. He can either just about fight an Avengers team team to a standstill, or he's an abject coward whose powers suddenly don't work they're usually described. And unfortunately, it's been 50/50 lately on which version we'll see with the coward loser gaining ground. *Le Sigh*

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Sidenote: If you haven't gotten it yet and don't have the original issues, the Essential Iron Fist by Marvel is hands down one of my best comic buys in the last year. Tons of issues for a comparitive pittance.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hyde v Jarvis. There's no way that steroid monkey should be able to take the Battlin' Butler!

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Hyde v Jarvis. There's no way that steroid monkey should be able to take the Battlin' Butler!

Ya know, if it had been Alfred, Hyde would have been breathing out of a chest tube right now.

[KA.]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Spiderman beat Firelord, and I still only see four lights.

 

 

KA.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

> Where is the evidence of Firelord's vast durability?

 

He takes hits from alien space battleships and ignores them. He flies through the corona of suns. He takes full-power shots from the original Phoenix, shots that literally knock him miles over the state line, and flies back a couple pages later fresh as a daisy. He bounces Mjolnir off his face. (add -- well, maybe not literally off his *face*, but he bounces it.)

 

> Yes, he fought Thor. Big deal - so did the Cobra and Mr. Hyde.

 

Cobra fights Thor the same way Spider-Man fights the Hulk -- by dodging like hell. One good solid hit and he's a rug stain. As for Mr. Hyde, he fights Thor about the same way that Bulldozer fights Der Westgote -- i.e., he gets slapped silly.

 

Firelord fought Thor, OTOH, as an even match.

 

> The Rhino fought the Hulk.

 

The Rhino has lost to Captain America and Spider-Man. (add) Not to mention, he's got the intellect of stale cheese. Outwitting the Rhino, not exactly a challenge.

 

> Lots of characters Spidey has beaten have fought the Big Boys.

 

Here's where we get into that 'context' thing again. Lots of heavy hitters that Spidey has beaten, he has *not* beaten by punching hard enough to KO them flat. He's had to drop them at terminal velocity, have aircraft fall on them, run them into 100-foot deep vats of concrete, and other such situational advantages.

 

None of this does anything to make credible the notion that Spidey can KO a Herald of Galactus simply by Haymakering him a lot.

 

> Show me the evidence Firelord would not be damaged by Spidey's

> blows [snip]

 

Firelord took no appreciable damage from being blasted into a building by the Phoenix Force. Not 'only lost a few STUN', but 'took absolutely nothing except the Knockback'.

 

Repeatedly.

 

She finally had to Push her own Haymaker to MegaScale Knockback him over a dozen miles into New Jersey -- and they started out in NYC. Two and a half pages later he was back, and he wasn't injured, he was just really pissed off. However, by this point Phoenix and the X-Men had all teleported away through a Shi'ar stargate, so Firelord simply gave Professor Xavier some lip and then flew away, fight over.

 

Note -- this was Phoenix attacking him. She not only wasn't able to down him, she wasn't even able to *stun* him. Her only viable option was to throw him into the next state and then run like hell.

 

That's just *one* of his early fights.

 

(Note -- this is original Jean Grey Phoenix, very shortly before the adventure with the M'Krann crystal. IOW, not gimped Phoenix, not partial-power Phoenix, but the same Phoenix that casually crushed a fully-rejuvenated Magneto to his knees before losing to a 'psychic circuit breaker'. *Dark* Phoenix, now she could most likely trump a Herald. But regular Phoenix couldn't even make one limp.)