Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

[Agent X]

I was just reading, elsewhere, a few gamers' comments on the Incredibles and it got me thinking. They were buying into the premise of the Incredibles, a movie I like, but still can see the huge gaping hole of a problem with.

 

The notion that lawsuits and public sentiment against supers would cause Superheroes to be forced by the government to retire has a huge gaping flaw in it: What about the Supervillains?

 

Supervillains are already doing stuff the government and the public doesn't like. They're not going to stop being Supervillains. A "ban" against Superheroes isn't going to last very long when the Evil Society takes over the Island of Manhattan and threatens the rest of the world with its storm-making machine. The minute the Supervillains have done something like that, the public and the government would be forced to revisit their position and change it.

 

If the Supervillains don't do stuff like that - oh well, I guess Superheroes weren't needed anyway.

[Inu]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

I was just reading, elsewhere, a few gamers' comments on the Incredibles and it got me thinking. They were buying into the premise of the Incredibles, a movie I like, but still can see the huge gaping hole of a problem with.

 

The notion that lawsuits and public sentiment against supers would cause Superheroes to be forced by the government to retire has a huge gaping flaw in it: What about the Supervillains?

 

Supervillains are already doing stuff the government and the public doesn't like. They're not going to stop being Supervillains. A "ban" against Superheroes isn't going to last very long when the Evil Society takes over the Island of Manhattan and threatens the rest of the world with its storm-making machine. The minute the Supervillains have done something like that, the public and the government would be forced to revisit their position and change it.

 

If the Supervillains don't do stuff like that - oh well, I guess Superheroes weren't needed anyway.

Yah, pretty much. I figured it was queuing off the notion that heroes and villains feed each other. Without villains, no heroes... and without heroes, no villains.

 

A notion I find some interest in, but wouldn't include in my own stuff, 'cause it kinda makes being a superhero... a bad thing. ;

[transmetahuman]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Haha, I just re-watched this last night, and I remember thinking the same thing. On the other hand, none of the villains in the movie - even in the past - had any super-powers. Just the radioactive silk-spinning commie in the cartoon in the special features disk, and the "commentary" makes it clear that she didn't really exist. Err, didn't exist in the Incredibles world, of course.

 

Bomb Voyage, Syndrome, various thugs and giant robots - that's it that I remember (Frozone reminisced about a villain he defeated because he started "monologuing", but I can't remember if he mentioned any powers). There might have been something I missed in the headlines, and I think I remember one of the hero files in the special features mentioning a flirtation with super-villainy, but it's just barely possible (if not the least bit plausible, not to mention palatable - superheros need supervillains to fight!) that everyone who gets super-powers becomes a hero. More likely, they kept powered supervillains out of the script in order to prevent the exact hole-poking that we're engaged in right now.

 

God what an awesome movie, though! Dash's little exclamations whenever he did something especially cool... perfect!

[OddHat]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Non powered villains with better tech than the police or government (Syndrome) are Supervillains.

 

Yes, I hated this as well, and it's a common flaw in Iron Age and "realistic" Superhero stories, especially comedy.

 

It's also part of the problem with "why don't they go after the real bad guys" wanking. Very few Supers can overthrow a corrupt government by themselves, and even fewer could be one man occupation and reonstruction corps. And what are the Super Criminals doing while Superheroes are occupied trying to turn third world nations into democracies?

 

I still liked the Incredibles; it's either the best Superhero film ever made or close to it. I just pretend that the government has been using black ops Supers to kill the bad guys while the more soft hearted heroes stay in hiding.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

It's also part of the problem with "why don't they go after the real bad guys" wanking. Very few Supers can overthrow a corrupt government by themselves' date=' and even fewer could be one man occupation and reonstruction corps. And what are the Super Criminals doing while Superheroes are occupied trying to turn third world nations into democracies?[/quote']

 

There's also the "cure the symptom not the disease" problem when it comes to these activities. I can't remember which group of heroes it was... maybe the Four Aces from the Wild Card books... who went down to Argentina in the late 40's early 50s and brought Juan Peron down... but a new facist warlord was in place in Argentina by the time the plane carrying the captured Peron landed in the states.

[OddHat]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

There's also the "cure the symptom not the disease" problem when it comes to these activities. I can't remember which group of heroes it was... maybe the Four Aces from the Wild Card books... who went down to Argentina in the late 40's early 50s and brought Juan Peron down... but a new facist warlord was in place in Argentina by the time the plane carrying the captured Peron landed in the states.

 

Yup. Just punching the bad guy rarely solves institutional or societal problems. It's rarely even that useful in the long term for personal problems. It can however be both entertaining and a good first step.

[McCoy]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

I presumed that, like OJ and Robert Blake, the supervillians were hit with crippling civil suits, which made it unproofitable to operate within the US. Notice how Syndrome got out of the country?

[OddHat]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

I presumed that' date=' like OJ and Robert Blake, the supervillians were hit with crippling civil suits, which made it unproofitable to operate within the US. Notice how Syndrome got out of the country?[/quote']

 

Evil Master Plan, Step Seventy Three: Kill all the lawyers.

[CBikle]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

This particular issue is currently being explored in Bendis' Powers (a series about non-superhero police homicide detectives who specialize in super-powered crimes) and that's exactly what happens.

 

It doesn't really seem like a story flaw to me; I can easily see this kind of short-sighted legislation getting pushed through as an appeasement to public outrage relating to a super using excess force.

[Eosin]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Tangent... I could see something like flood insurance developing. A special fund paid for by taxes that would rebuild anything destroyed in a super battle. Course, all supers would be required to acrue CEUs on property destruction, civilian rights, ethics, good samariatian laws, and critical infrastructure.

 

Local Politician:

"I am sorry Stupendous Man, the last Property Conservation class was in October. We are going to have to suspend you from performing any more activities in Campaign City until your educational requirements are met. This document is a form of a VPO which clearly spells out that you are not allowed within the city limits with the exception of written notices cleared by the mayor and in the case of personal medical emergencies."

[Haerandir]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Evil Master Plan' date=' Step Seventy Three: Kill all the lawyers.[/quote']

 

Step 73? Everybody knows that the first thing you do is kill all the lawyers. That's step one.

[OddHat]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Step 73? Everybody knows that the first thing you do is kill all the lawyers. That's step one.

 

Takes 72 steps to get into a position to kill all the lawyers. The logistics alone are a nightmare.

 

I don't see Super Lawsuits as realistic at all in a world where Supervillains are common. I know we bend ourselves into pretzels to justify genre conventions we like, but this one is particularly idiotic. You can't deliver a summons to a Villain, and the heroes work is vital. The government trying to gain direct control over Supers, enticing or pressing them into military and police service, that may make some sense. Banning Superheroes while Supervillains are free to blow up American cities at will is the stuff of parody at best.

 

9/11 shows very clearly how deeply Americans actually care about the letter of the law and Civil Liberties when faced with a real threat; a Supers world is one where events like 9/11 happen every year or two at best. The amazing thing is that they maintain any kind of ecconomy or civil government at all.

 

EDIT: To clarify, America has done well. We have not sent all American Muslims into detainment camps or forced all American Muslims out of the military and civil service, both of which might have hapenned sixty years ago. We have made use of categories like "unlawful combatant" and waived restrictions on spying on our own citizens, and we may have resorted to torture with minimal public outcry. That's a very moderate response. If more buildings were falling every few months, I doubt we'd be nearly so restrained.

[McCoy]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

To clarify' date=' America has done well. We have not sent all American Muslims into detainment camps or forced all American Muslims out of the military and civil service, both of which might have hapenned sixty years ago. We have made use of categories like "unlawful combatant" and waived restrictions on spying on our own citizens, and we may have resorted to torture with minimal public outcry. That's a very moderate response. If more buildings were falling every few months, I doubt we'd be nearly so restrained.[/quote']

Unfortunately, I think you are absolutely right.

[Evil102]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Supervillains are already doing stuff the government and the public doesn't like. They're not going to stop being Supervillains. A "ban" against Superheroes isn't going to last very long when the Evil Society takes over the Island of Manhattan and threatens the rest of the world with its storm-making machine. The minute the Supervillains have done something like that' date=' the public and the government would be forced to revisit their position and change it.[/quote']

 

There's always the possibility that the Supervillains weren't stupendously super.

 

In the downtime between Act 1 and Act 2 the authorities find that the cops can't handle the supervillains without the heroes around and change their policies. No more "Book 'em, Danno". Now it's "shoot on sight" with teflon-coated rounds. If it's got a cape, it's going down hard.

 

Most of the low- to mid-powered villains get out of the game, or develop toe tags. The higher-order villains start working behind the scenes before the PD start upgrading their weaponry to something that could even hurt them.

 

Naturally, since this is an upbeat Pixar movie, all this unpleasantness happens off-camera...

[MCMaenza]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Perhaps, like Syndrome, the other villains felt part of the challenge was gone without heroes to face. Kind of like how the Flash's Rogues Gallery all liked sparring with the speedster as much as committing crimes. After Barry died, a lot of them lost a lot of interest in crime. If the crime was more important, why hit Central City over and over and over again? Commit a crime in a city without a hero.

[Agent X]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

There's always the possibility that the Supervillains weren't stupendously super.

 

In the downtime between Act 1 and Act 2 the authorities find that the cops can't handle the supervillains without the heroes around and change their policies. No more "Book 'em, Danno". Now it's "shoot on sight" with teflon-coated rounds. If it's got a cape, it's going down hard.

 

Most of the low- to mid-powered villains get out of the game, or develop toe tags. The higher-order villains start working behind the scenes before the PD start upgrading their weaponry to something that could even hurt them.

 

Naturally, since this is an upbeat Pixar movie, all this unpleasantness happens off-camera...

This isn't much of a fix. If the cops can handle the supervillains there is no need for superheroes.

 

And I just don't buy the notion that Syndrome was the only credible supervillain threat the police weren't capable of handling.

 

And I don't think "secret superheroes" can actually deal with every standard Supervillain threat - some supervillains tend to be a bit public in demonstrating their power.

 

I like the movie but I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where the notion that you could force superheroes underground for decades was held up as plausible.

[Wormhole]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

If the cops can take you down without superpowered assistance, you have no business calling yourself a supervillain.

[assault]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

This isn't much of a fix. If the cops can handle the supervillains there is no need for superheroes.

 

There wasn't any need for superheroes.

 

We don't have much of a sample, but it's quite possible that supervillains were actually rare and low-powered by the time the heroes were forced to retire.

 

That's quite plausible, if there are no revolving doors on the prisons. All the big boys could have been taken out of commission.

 

A lot also depends on how many supers there actually were. (About 20-odd were mentioned in the film).

[Agent X]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

There wasn't any need for superheroes.

 

We don't have much of a sample, but it's quite possible that supervillains were actually rare and low-powered by the time the heroes were forced to retire.

 

That's quite plausible, if there are no revolving doors on the prisons. All the big boys could have been taken out of commission.

 

A lot also depends on how many supers there actually were. (About 20-odd were mentioned in the film).

Right. We don't have a sample to show that this world is any different from most supehero universes.

[OddHat]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

And I don't think "secret superheroes" can actually deal with every standard Supervillain threat - some supervillains tend to be a bit public in demonstrating their power.

 

I don't really like it either; it's just a fanwank. In my own campaigns, government supports public and semi-private Supers and Super Teams at all levels (City, State and National) that work with the police, with a rumored but never confirmed set of Black Ops Supers. In other settings, other arangements work well enough.

 

I like the movie but I wouldn't want to play in a campaign where the notion that you could force superheroes underground for decades was held up as plausible.

 

Yup.

[assault]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

If the cops can take you down without superpowered assistance' date=' you have no business calling yourself a supervillain.[/quote']

 

Tell it to Dan "Terrible" Turpin.

[wcw43921]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

They did mention something about "memory erasing" in the movie, and we saw it happen in the DVD short Jack-Jack Attack. Perhaps most, if not all of the supervillains that were caught had some of their memories blanked out--most likely the ones relating to how to use their powers.

 

It would have to be kept secret--the uproar over civil liberties that would rise up would be more than the government could handle.

 

This obviously doesn't cover everything--I suppose we'll have to ask Brad Bird for a complete explanation. Anyone got his phone number?

[Agent X]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

They did mention something about "memory erasing" in the movie' date=' and we saw it happen in the DVD short [i']Jack-Jack Attack[/i]. Perhaps most, if not all of the supervillains that were caught had some of their memories blanked out--most likely the ones relating to how to use their powers.

 

It would have to be kept secret--the uproar over civil liberties that would rise up would be more than the government could handle.

 

This obviously doesn't cover everything--I suppose we'll have to ask Brad Bird for a complete explanation. Anyone got his phone number?

I really don't think it would lead to an uproar. In a world with Supervillains, I'm pretty sure folks would be comfortable with extraordinary measures being used against supervillains.

[austenandrews]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

Right. We don't have a sample to show that this world is any different from most supehero universes.

I think we have to assume conditions were such that driving away the superheroes was plausible, since that's obviously a big part of the "sample" we have. So the supervillain threat must have been minor at best.

[Inu]

Re: Don't Buy Everything In a Good Story (Topic: Supers and the Law)

 

I think we have to assume conditions were such that driving away the superheroes was plausible' date=' since that's obviously a big part of the "sample" we have. So the supervillain threat must have been minor at best.[/quote']

It IS possible that the heroes had already, in a way, won - supervillains were behind bars or had retired, or turned into heroes... since I can't accept that the villains are lower-powered per se. I can accept that the heroes had already beaten them. In which case, getting rid of the heroes was prolly the next logical step. The 'age of superheroes' is a wondrous one, to be sure... but also a dangerous and turbulent one, so I can see authorities wanting things to return to a more normal standard.

 

But it's a bit odd that it took so long for a villain to rear his ugly head again.

 

I can buy it for a film. There may be more explanation, they didn't have time, eh. It's not a conceit I'd be likely to use, except at the end. After all, it's what many heroes say, yeah? 'When there is no more threat, I'll be happy to hang up my cape.'