Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

ChuckG,

I agree wholeheartedly and think that the claims of nanotechnology are vastly overrated. But that won't:

 

A) Keep munchkin players from finding hare brained rationals for even those effects ("They disassemble me here and reassemble me there"), requiring me to:

 

Make a big ol' list of what can and can't be done.

 

The closest I ever got to anything like that in my SF campaign (which was pretty hard SF), were disease-fighting custom-engineered thingies that could just as easily be descibed as organic. Each one was tailored for specific use, had to be created at great expense in special facilities, and needed to be administered in proper conditions.

 

Of, course, the main "villain" in the whole campaign was an unbelievably complex organic molecule created by unbelievably advanced life forms. But most SF requires one unbelievable premise and follows it with believable consequences.

 

Keith "I loved that campaign" Curtis

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

One of my favorite nanotech comic book moments:

 

Super Patriot (Image) is a cyborg with nanotech arms and legs that can be remolded into weaponry, including firearms. One issue he's going against a whole slew of very badass foes, so he takes a container off of his utility belt that contains vicious "super nanites" that up his power tremendously, but have a short life span.

 

The container? A can labelled "Whupass."

[Black Rose]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Well' date=' actually, nanites that restored just enough nerve function that she can wiggle her toes, and *might* someday walk on crutches again with enough physical therapy, actually /does/ come across as more realistic than Zatanna just going "teG tuo fo taht riach dna ecnad!" [/quote']

Granted, Zatanna is a Deus Ex waiting for stage directions.

 

But is "nanites that restored just enough nerve function that she can wiggle her toes, and *might* someday walk on crutches again with enough physical therapy" really much better than "complex spell that allows the body to slowly repair damage done to nerve cells, which means that, barring new damage and allowing for serious PT, she may one day walk with only the aid of a cane"? It's still "thing happened, and if you work hard, you might get some function back"; only the SFX differ.

 

I will admit, there is a part of my brain that is more willing to accept "nanites" over "magic", but I figure that's the rational part, and I just give it a good smackdown.

 

PS: Actually, that spell would be "Teg tuo fo taht riahc dna ecnad!"

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Superheroes are basically an institution.

But that's just it - they aren't. They're a collection of individuals. It's not like there's a credentialing system, or an oversight board you can file a complaint with if they abuse their trust. Just because someone develops superpowers, why should we assume they'll also develop the ability to use those powers wisely, even assuming they're generally law-abiding. And let's not even get started on the Major Transform you'd have to do on our legal system to make all this hold up in court.

 

But hey, it's a genre thing. So I don't mind.

 

 

Other things that make me roll my eyes, but in a good way:

 

All superheroes, regardless of powers, can run into burning buildings without fear of smoke inhalation.

 

Superheroes always just happen to be walking past the bank when it's robbed, or nearby when the train starts to derail, or whatever. What're the odds, right?

 

Cops are incompetant. Yes, any well-trained SWAT team sniper should be able to bring down most villains from two blocks away. But then what would we need heroes for? (This one does bug me sometimes, but I try to tell that part of my brain to go lie down until the scene has passed.)

 

 

bigdamnhero

“He's not the first psycho to hire us nor the last. You think that's a commentary on us?â€

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Superheroes always just happen to be walking past the bank when it's robbed, or nearby when the train starts to derail, or whatever. What're the odds, right?

 

Call it the Jessica Fletcher Syndrome- it moves the story along.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Call it the Jessica Fletcher Syndrome- it moves the story along.

Well named!

 

And how about all those supervillain flunkies? Seriously, the pay can't possibly be good enough to justify working for a nutjob who's as likely to kill you as pay you, it's not like the boss it going to bail your @$$ out of jail if you get caught, and you just know there's no dental plan. But they never seem to have any trouble finding thugs.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“You can watch me or you can join me. One of them is more fun.â€

[Pentoth]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

I read an older issue of Superman/Batman and when I saw Kryto I just started laughing. A real bad *** superdog who doesn't like anyone is guarding the Fortress of Solitude. It is so ridiculous him chasing Supergirl throughout the fortress. I laughed aloud for about 5 minutes.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

I read an older issue of Superman/Batman and when I saw Kryto I just started laughing. A real bad *** superdog who doesn't like anyone is guarding the Fortress of Solitude. It is so ridiculous him chasing Supergirl throughout the fortress. I laughed aloud for about 5 minutes.

I would be terrified of an invulnerable, flying dog with heat vision who can bite through titanium.

 

Of course, I used to tuck a red towel in my dog's collar when running around in my Superman playsuit as a kid.

 

Keith "sad, but true" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Heh, I can see it now.

 

Zatanna: "Cainiarb, elbmessasid!"

 

Brainiac: "I'm sorry Zatanna, I'm a strict rationalist and find it difficult to believe in magic." ZAPP!

 

Nothing left but a smoking pile of fishnets and top hat.

 

 

Keith "Totally accurate: TEG TUO FO TAHT RIAHC DNA ECNAD!" Curtis

[Chuckg]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Apparently, only healing magic suffers that particular bug. *shrugs* It's a writer's fudge, you get stuff like this. I'm respecting it simply because it's at least a reasonably *competent* writer's fudge.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Apparently' date=' only healing magic suffers that particular bug. *shrugs* It's a writer's fudge, you get stuff like this. I'm respecting it simply because it's at least a reasonably *competent* writer's fudge. [/quote']

Yeah, as fudges go that is a reasonably-well-thought-out one. Magic requires some fuding almost by definition unless you very specifically define what it can and can't do. Which is hard to do in a multi-writer comics universe. Didn't they use a similar excuse on Buffy for why they couldn't use magic to cure Joyce's brain tumor or somesuch? IIRC they never really explained it beyond an assertion that "magic and medicine don't mix."

 

 

bigdamnhero

“Your sister's not a cold-blooded murderer. She's never been a planner.â€

[OddHat]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

I would be terrified of an invulnerable, flying dog with heat vision who can bite through titanium.

 

Of course, I used to tuck a red towel in my dog's collar when running around in my Superman playsuit as a kid.

 

Keith "sad, but true" Curtis

 

Remember Samson, the super-cat from Gladiator(1930)? Super animals are scary outside of a Silver Age setting.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Didn't they use a similar excuse on Buffy for why they couldn't use magic to cure Joyce's brain tumor or somesuch? IIRC they never really explained it beyond an assertion that "magic and medicine don't mix."

 

No, the Buffyverse never had a 'the recipient must believe the magic to be helped by the magic' limitation. The reason given was (looks up BtvS episode transcripts online...)

 

Buffy: So I figured there has to be some kind of mystical cure, right? I mean, like a, a potion, or a spell or something. We have to look.

 

Willow: We can look ... I mean, we will, but ... I haven't seen anything.

 

Giles: The truth is, uh, the ... mystical and the medical aren't meant to mix, Buffy. Sorry, um .. .the human mind is very delicate. Too much can go wrong.

 

Tara: Yeah, I've heard stories about people trying healing spells ... if we did something, it could make things a lot worse, Buffy.

 

-- BtvS season 5, episode 8, "Shadow"

 

Then again, healing would hardly be the only thing that magic in the Buffyverse made worse. AAMOF, throughout the history of the show, the very consistent pattern has been "if you throw magic at it, it'll only leave you worse off in the long run." Magic in the Buffyverse took a rather Mythos view of things -- screwing around with it could give you power and miracles galore, but always to a net detriment in your life. Or the life of the person you were trying to help. Or the people around you. The exceptions were *very* rare, and only in season 7, when The Script was absolutely mandating happy endings for the original Scoobies regardless of logic, plot, or precedent.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

AAMOF' date=' throughout the history of the show, the very consistent pattern has been "if you throw magic at it, it'll only leave you worse off in the long run." Magic in the Buffyverse took a rather Mythos view of things -- screwing around with it could give you power and miracles galore, but always to a net detriment in your life. Or the life of the person you were trying to help. Or the people around you. The exceptions were *very* rare, and only in season 7, when The Script was absolutely mandating happy endings for the original Scoobies regardless of logic, plot, or precedent.[/quote']I think I've heard Joss mention, his view of magic was 'What ever you do, you get back more". So if you only used magic for good, you got good stuff, but when you started using magic for selfish reason, you ended up getting nailed by it.

 

That seems to fit from what I remember. As long as long as Willow and the crew stuck to using magic to beat the monster of the week, they where fine. When Willow started using magic as her own personal whammy, bad **** started happening.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

> I think I've heard Joss mention, his view of

> magic was 'What ever you do, you get back

> more". So if you only used magic for good, you

> got good stuff, but when you started using magic

> for selfish reason, you ended up getting nailed

> by it.

 

I don't believe it. Let's look at a list of magic-using cast members of both shows...

 

* Willow -- amazingly enough, despite going all Darth Rosenberg, she's the only sorceress on the show who ended their saga in a happy place.

 

* Giles -- not dead, not happy, kinda blah.

 

* Jenny Calendar -- dead.

 

* Tara -- dead

 

* Anya -- dead

 

* Doyle -- dead

 

* Cordelia(1) -- lied to and used as a demon puppet, forced to host an Elder God, *then* dead.

 

* Wesley -- dead.

 

BTW, note that the only live ones on this list are the ones with a past history of using magic for selfish reasons (The Recovering Magic Junkie and The Watcher Formerly Known As Ripper). While some 'selfish' ones are also among the dead (Anya, and possibly Dark Wesley, although he wasn't using *magic* for that), the two people who always used their magic for the most purely unselfish reasons around (Tara and Cordelia) got horribly whacked with the karma stick anyway. AAMOF, they got it the *worst*.

 

If magic in the Buffyverse truly obeyed the laws of karma, Tara should have died at age 97. In her sleep. In a mansion.

 

 

 

(1) First the visions, then the glowy floaty stuff that she got in season 3 AtS.

[OddHat]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

>

 

I don't believe it. Let's look at a list of magic-using cast members of both shows...

 

* Willow -- amazingly enough, despite going all Darth Rosenberg, she's the only sorceress on the show who ended their saga in a happy place.

 

* Giles -- not dead, not happy, kinda blah.

 

* Jenny Calendar -- dead.

 

* Tara -- dead

 

* Anya -- dead

 

* Doyle -- dead

 

* Cordelia(1) -- lied to and used as a demon puppet, forced to host an Elder God, *then* dead.

 

* Wesley -- dead.

 

BTW, note that the only live ones on this list are the ones with a past history of using magic for selfish reasons (The Recovering Magic Junkie and The Watcher Formerly Known As Ripper). While some 'selfish' ones are also among the dead (Anya, and possibly Dark Wesley, although he wasn't using *magic* for that), the two people who always used their magic for the most purely unselfish reasons around (Tara and Cordelia) got horribly whacked with the karma stick anyway. AAMOF, they got it the *worst*.

 

If magic in the Buffyverse truly obeyed the laws of karma, Tara should have died at age 97. In her sleep. In a mansion.

 

 

 

(1) First the visions, then the glowy floaty stuff that she got in season 3 AtS.

 

Yup. If Joss ever did work out rules for magic, he didn't insist that the writers pay much attention to them, and he wasn't married to them himself. His cosmology and world background also weren't set in stone, but that's typical for most fantasy.

[Snake Gandhi]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Yup. If Joss ever did work out rules for magic' date=' he didn't insist that the writers pay much attention to them, and he wasn't married to them himself. His cosmology and world background also weren't set in stone, but that's typical for most fantasy.[/quote']Well, any rules he might have come up with would have been superceeded by Joss's #1 rule "Life sucks":)

 

For a guy who loves his characters so much, he sure can put them through some very bad stuff sometimes.

[The Watcher]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

> I think I've heard Joss mention, his view of

> magic was 'What ever you do, you get back

> more". So if you only used magic for good, you

> got good stuff, but when you started using magic

> for selfish reason, you ended up getting nailed

> by it.

 

I don't believe it. Let's look at a list of magic-using cast members of both shows...

 

* Willow -- amazingly enough, despite going all Darth Rosenberg, she's the only sorceress on the show who ended their saga in a happy place.

 

* Giles -- not dead, not happy, kinda blah.

 

* Jenny Calendar -- dead.

 

* Tara -- dead

 

* Anya -- dead

 

* Doyle -- dead

 

* Cordelia(1) -- lied to and used as a demon puppet, forced to host an Elder God, *then* dead.

 

* Wesley -- dead.

 

BTW, note that the only live ones on this list are the ones with a past history of using magic for selfish reasons (The Recovering Magic Junkie and The Watcher Formerly Known As Ripper). While some 'selfish' ones are also among the dead (Anya, and possibly Dark Wesley, although he wasn't using *magic* for that), the two people who always used their magic for the most purely unselfish reasons around (Tara and Cordelia) got horribly whacked with the karma stick anyway. AAMOF, they got it the *worst*.

 

If magic in the Buffyverse truly obeyed the laws of karma, Tara should have died at age 97. In her sleep. In a mansion.

 

 

 

(1) First the visions, then the glowy floaty stuff that she got in season 3 AtS.

You left out Amy, who of course proves your point in the opposite way by being a selfish witch who IIRC got off really light, all things considered.

[dbsousa]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

 

I don't believe it. Let's look at a list of magic-using cast members of both shows...

 

* Willow -- amazingly enough, despite going all Darth Rosenberg, she's the only sorceress on the show who ended their saga in a happy place.

 

* Giles -- not dead, not happy, kinda blah.

 

* Jenny Calendar -- dead.

 

* Tara -- dead

 

* Anya -- dead

 

* Doyle -- dead

 

* Cordelia(1) -- lied to and used as a demon puppet, forced to host an Elder God, *then* dead.

 

* Wesley -- dead.

You are mistaking karma with consequences of magic. Plus, you are calling death a bad thing in a universe with a proven afterlife.

 

I think that magic in the Whedon Universe works as a shortcut. When used as a shortcut for the mundane (Search spells, changing clothes, etc.) no harm, no foul. When used as a shortcut for things that should not have shortcuts (Relationships, Personal Growth, Grieving) things go wonky...

[Kristopher]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

You are mistaking karma with consequences of magic. Plus, you are calling death a bad thing in a universe with a proven afterlife.

 

I think that magic in the Whedon Universe works as a shortcut. When used as a shortcut for the mundane (Search spells, changing clothes, etc.) no harm, no foul. When used as a shortcut for things that should not have shortcuts (Relationships, Personal Growth, Grieving) things go wonky...

 

 

This is a purely moral distinction, however, isn't it?

 

 

Anyway, I don't expect Whedon's in-show magic to follow any kind of reliable system or rules, any more than his plots did. While you might think that Whedon, Chris Carter, or the people writing shows such as Alias or Lost have a destination in mind, they typically don't. They make it up as they go, for the most part.

[Chuckg]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

> You are mistaking karma with consequences of magic.

 

Cordelia's hideous abuse by Jasmine and death was brought about *directly* by a decision by Cordelia to adopt magic for purely unselfish motives. (Season 3 AtS, "Birthday") Cordy literally turned her back on being offered everything she'd ever wanted to continue accepting the visions, because she could do good with them. Look at her reward!

 

Wesley died in a spell duel against Wolfram & Hart's chief evil sorcerer dude, under circumstances that practically qualified for martyrdom. (After all, *nobody* on Angel Investigations was expecting to survive their final crusade against the Black Thorn... talk about unselfish!)

 

Doyle died unselfishly as well.

 

> Plus, you are calling death a bad thing in a universe with a proven

> afterlife.

 

The only afterlives proven to exist in the Buffyverse are a) stasis traps of phony bliss, hell dimensions, and c) continuing to serve the Powers That Be elsewhere... and that last one required literal divine intervention to exist, and was only seen once.

 

And the other two, as alternatives, suck.

 

> I think that magic in the Whedon Universe works as a shortcut. When

> used as a shortcut for the mundane (Search spells, changing clothes,

> etc.) no harm, no foul. When used as a shortcut for things that

> should not have shortcuts (Relationships, Personal Growth, Grieving)

> things go wonky...

 

Wasn't it a specific plot point in season 6 that one of the symptoms that Willow Was Out Of Control was when she was using magic to shortcut for mundane things, like changing her clothes or using her computer? Yup, yup it was.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

No' date=' the Buffyverse never had a 'the recipient must believe the magic to be helped by the magic' limitation. The reason given was (looks up BtvS episode transcripts online...).

Yeah, that's about what I remembered...very vaguely-defined. Thanks for the look-up.

 

While you might think that Whedon' date=' Chris Carter, or the people writing shows such as Alias or Lost have a destination in mind, they typically don't. They make it up as they go, for the most part.[/quote']

Well yes. At least they're making it up one season at a time, rather than one episode at a time, like some shows. (Trek-TNG comes to mind, where they allegedly would write their cliffhanger season finales, and then go on break without having worked out what was going to happen in part 2.) And really, planning one season out is probably the best you can hope for from most TV, where you seldom know if you're even going to be around next season.

 

(BTW, the show-runner on both Alias and Lost is J.J. Abrams.)

 

I would think it would be rather tricky to have well-developed "rules of magic" in a TV show without either 1) an awful lot of boring exposition, or 2) an awful lot of "it doesn't work that way, just trust me on this" moments.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“I've never been this near to a woman before. It makes me want to do something. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is I want to do a lot of it!â€

[Kristopher]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Many of my friends are or have been into the Whedonverses, Alias, Lost, the new SFC Battlestar Gallactica, etc...but I've never been able to get into those shows, because they don't stand up to analysis. I've ended up at the same place with the Star Wars saga, which I used to adore.

 

Please note the title under my name on this post...

 

I do the same thing to comics, which leaves me pretty much taking the basic concept of superpowers and trying to work out a setting which I can actually believe would exist without requiring a world populated by morons.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Yeah' date=' as fudges go that [i']is[/i] a reasonably-well-thought-out one. Magic requires some fuding almost by definition unless you very specifically define what it can and can't do.

 

Um, whenI first looked at this, I thought you said that magic required some major f***ing. Which made me wonder if now Zatanna was into Tantra.

 

Of course, many more men would get into her if that was true.

 

Er, maybe I should rephrase that?

[Black Rose]

Re: Ridiculous things in comics that you don't mind.

 

Yeah' date=' as fudges go that is a reasonably-well-thought-out one. Magic requires some fuding almost by definition unless you very specifically define what it can and can't do.[/quote'] Um, when I first looked at this, I thought you said that magic required some major f***ing. Which made me wonder if now Zatanna was into Tantra.

 

Of course, many more men would get into her if that was true.

 

Er, maybe I should rephrase that?

No, no, I think you got it right on both counts.

 

Rather tangential to the thread, if not this post, but I've been trying to comprehend this new game I picked up called Weapons of the Gods. It's a Wuxia setting based off a series of Hong Kong comics of the same name. Anyhoo, the game has the most... intriguing... reasoning for why the PCs should avoid homosexual relations - completely aside from "your family wants SONS, you moron! And you can't give sons that way!"

 

Sexual congress expends energy (yang for men, yin for women); if your partner doesn't have the complementary type, you end up depleted (if you're a man) or sort of bored (if a woman). Fortunately , there are techniques to overcome this problem for both sides; though I find it interesting that the supreme method of dealing with the problem is to make your partner into the "appropriate" sex. I did like that no one really cares, setting-wise, who does what with who; it's that whole "sons uber alles" thing that causes grief.